I got scammed..looking for advice/tips - GoFuckYourself.com

SaintElGrouch · 02-01-2007, 08:00 AM

i sold my site to bs1209 on sitepoint for $6,000
he sent me the money thru paypal
i withdrew the money to my bank account
and transferred the domain to him
and gave him all the files
the next month.....i go into my paypal account
my balance says -$6,000
and my account was restricted
i called them
they told me that he reversed the payment and that i should ask him to pay them so they could clear my balance
they never checked to see what happened on my end
so at this point...he has his money and my site
and i have a debt

is there anything i can do?

fris · 02-01-2007, 08:02 AM

that really sucks, try contacting the owners at sitepoint, usally people that are on sitepoint are good people to deal with, shitty you got the person thats low on the food chain

chowda · 02-01-2007, 08:05 AM

use escrow.com next time?

Brooke Anderson · 02-01-2007, 08:19 AM

File a dispute with paypal, they review the case after some time, and eventually can try and pull the money back. If they are on your side that is. Sad thing is, if he doesn't have the money in his bank, they only pull as much as is in his account.

Klen · 02-01-2007, 08:23 AM

There are chargeback on paypal?Didnt know for that.

SaintElGrouch · 02-01-2007, 08:39 AM

When I contacted Paypal and filed a dispute they pretty much told me that there's not much they can do for online goods.

I figure at the very least, I can try to get the domain back.
Alot of the advice i'm getting is to try to contact a lawyer.
Would there be anything that a lawyer would be able to do for me in this situation?

And yes, I know now that I should have used an escrow service.

leming · 02-01-2007, 08:55 AM

Yep... It sucks

Twisted Dave · 02-01-2007, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaintElGrouch

i sold my site to bs1209 on sitepoint for $6,000
he sent me the money thru paypal
i withdrew the money to my bank account
and transferred the domain to him
and gave him all the files
the next month.....i go into my paypal account
my balance says -$6,000
and my account was restricted
i called them
they told me that he reversed the payment and that i should ask him to pay them so they could clear my balance
they never checked to see what happened on my end
so at this point...he has his money and my site
and i have a debt

is there anything i can do?

That's exactly what happened to me ... you know what I did? I told PayPal to fuck off and cancelled the direct debit on my bank.

They emailed a few times ... and if they try to do anything I'll go crazy at them. I got fucked. No one else. Me.

escorpio · 02-01-2007, 09:35 AM

Fuck PayPal and their fucked up policy that allows fuckers to pull that shit.

jaffie · 02-01-2007, 09:57 AM

Yes I do agree, Fuck PayPal, Epassporte is the way to go ;]

BAKO · 02-01-2007, 11:16 AM

Sorry to hear about that

CaptainHowdy · 02-01-2007, 11:17 AM

Take cash only next time :/ ...

Snap3 · 02-01-2007, 11:48 AM

Isnt Domainnames counted as virtual items? Then hes not able to do a chargeback.

woj · 02-01-2007, 11:56 AM

Don't want to rub it in, but what were you thinking? Why would you even take 6k paypal in the first place? Anything over 1k should be wire only...

woj · 02-01-2007, 11:58 AM

There is still hope, you can try proving to them that your transfered the domain over to him... might even be worthwhile to get a lawyer to handle this?... but also look on the bright side, you didn't really lose anything yet, it could have been much worse, you just have -6k balance in paypal...

baddog · 02-01-2007, 12:01 PM

Western Union > Paypal sometimes

wdsguy · 02-01-2007, 12:01 PM

delete the bank account off your paypal record , remove your personal information and close your paypal account.

King of Queens · 02-01-2007, 12:35 PM

Damn, Im sorry to hear this happen to
you.

Been through this twice myself

First time I didnt get nothing back.
2'nd time the scammer paid me back
almost 8 months later.

I hope this work out in your favor
but I doubt the scammer will ever load
that account again.

I would try to get sitepoint and the guys
register involved.

You may at least get your domain name
back.

germ · 02-01-2007, 01:51 PM

ouch, that really sucks man.

best of luck in getting your money/site back. this is why i say "fuck paypal"

26MLR · 02-01-2007, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisted Illustration

That's exactly what happened to me ... you know what I did? I told PayPal to fuck off and cancelled the direct debit on my bank.

They emailed a few times ... and if they try to do anything I'll go crazy at them. I got fucked. No one else. Me.

They'll fuck up your credit rating. Don't do that.

Get all your documentation together on the transfer of the domain and file a dspute with both PayPal and the registrar of the domain.

TenPinReaper · 02-01-2007, 02:10 PM

Start randomly sniping people at their home office.

JustinBackDoorCash · 02-01-2007, 02:11 PM

Paypal does not guarantee virtual goods (including domain names). Unfortunately this was a mistake on your part to sell via paypal. I dont see this being resolved in your favor. Next time make sure you use an escrow service that secures buyers payment! Sorry to hear about your misfortune.

Justin

Twisted Dave · 02-01-2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 26MLR

They'll fuck up your credit rating. Don't do that.

Get all your documentation together on the transfer of the domain and file a dspute with both PayPal and the registrar of the domain.

I laugh in the face of it ...

my credit rating is 0 anyway! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

I do everything by REAL money. I NEVER take credit and NEVER WILL.... HAHAHAHAHA!!! YESSSS! I win

woj · 02-01-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisted Illustration

I laugh in the face of it ...

my credit rating is 0 anyway! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

I do everything by REAL money. I NEVER take credit and NEVER WILL.... HAHAHAHAHA!!! YESSSS! I win

You bought your house with cash?

Valoon · 02-01-2007, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by woj

Don't want to rub it in, but what were you thinking? Why would you even take 6k paypal in the first place? Anything over 1k should be wire only...

why didn't you use wire transfer for 6k?

SaintElGrouch · 02-01-2007, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valoon

why didn't you use wire transfer for 6k?

Honestly, inexperience. I'd never sold a website or conducted business for that amount of money. Not to mention that I never thought that Paypal would not even consider "my side" of the dispute because it was virtual goods.

Does anyone know if there's a specific type of attorney I should be looking for in this, or would any type of attorney do?

Valoon · 02-02-2007, 12:10 AM

Did you try to meet with an attorney from Paypal personally in order to discuss your metter without phone&emails ? In such cases personal contact could be better than any lawyer. 6K worths trying.

Valoon · 02-02-2007, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valoon

Did you try to meet with an attorney from Paypal personally in order to discuss your matter without phone&emails ? In such cases personal contact could be better than any lawyer. 6K worths trying.

one more. Try to contact some of their bosses.Don't try to get help from a receptionist

Jace · 02-02-2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twisted Illustration

I laugh in the face of it ...

my credit rating is 0 anyway! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!

I do everything by REAL money. I NEVER take credit and NEVER WILL.... HAHAHAHAHA!!! YESSSS! I win

my credit rating is HORRIBLE too....I do almost everything in cash too

Doctor Dre · 02-02-2007, 12:21 AM

Yeah this is why I'm not using paypal anymore. I told them to fuckoff when they allowed someone to chargeback on me... I had all my money out of there.

They could at least call before they make a $6000 chargeback

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:02 PM

I contacted GoDaddy and they told me to try to contact the people at WIPO for arbitration. All the laywers i've contacted so far are telling me that they don't do cases that are worth as much as mine. Does anybody know a different route I can take in this, or know someone in the Los Angeles area that may be willing to help?

ayne468 · 02-05-2007, 08:07 PM

Sorry I have no advice for you...but here is a good luck bump! Hope it all works out 4 u

aico · 02-05-2007, 08:12 PM

well you got the money, so just cancel your paypal account.

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ayne468

Sorry I have no advice for you...but here is a good luck bump! Hope it all works out 4 u

Much appreciated.
I understand I screwed the pooch on this one, but I can't even see straight i'm so pissed off at this situation.

reynold · 02-05-2007, 08:14 PM

Paypal is so ONE SIDED and BIASED towards the buyer it's sick.... Fuck Paypal!

jeffrey · 02-05-2007, 08:14 PM

So you have your money in your bank. But hae a negative paypal ballance?
So sign up for a new paypal if you still need paypal?

Cause if thats the case then yes he got away with a scam, but at least your not out anythihg.

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aico

well you got the money, so just cancel your paypal account.

They're sending collections people for the money. That's one hell of a mark on my credit report that I don't really want to have.

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:17 PM

I got his information from the whois database, wondering if he's ever scammed anyone on here other than me maybe.

Herron, Mike [email protected]
6101 Hopewell Ch. Rd
Lancaster, Ohio 43130
United States
1849003211

Lykos · 02-05-2007, 08:25 PM

damn that really sux,hope u find him!

RawAlex · 02-05-2007, 08:30 PM

I never understand this stuff.

services like paypal and epass and others are made for small amounts. These companies are not banks, there is no security for your money in reality, and the rules are very arbitrary. This can be doubly bad if you are buying and selling with people overseas or far away, that would make legal action difficult or impossible.

$6000 on paypal? Seriously, you signed up to get scammed doing that.

Escrow services are the way to go. Yes, they take some of the action, but at $6000, the buyer can pay the escrow too.

I am sorry you lost your site and your money, but geez...

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RawAlex

I never understand this stuff.

services like paypal and epass and others are made for small amounts. These companies are not banks, there is no security for your money in reality, and the rules are very arbitrary. This can be doubly bad if you are buying and selling with people overseas or far away, that would make legal action difficult or impossible.

$6000 on paypal? Seriously, you signed up to get scammed doing that.

Escrow services are the way to go. Yes, they take some of the action, but at $6000, the buyer can pay the escrow too.

I am sorry you lost your site and your money, but geez...

Totally understand now. My opinion on Paypal was that they ran business just like any other type of big company with chargebacks which was dispute resolution. What I didn't know was about the virtual goods. If I had sold him the server that held the website, he couldn't have charged back the money, but apparently they can with the domain.

Alphonso · 02-05-2007, 08:47 PM

contact the buyer man ... what the hell ?!?

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alphonso

contact the buyer man ... what the hell ?!?

Won't answer e-mails, number's now disconnected.

After Shock Media · 02-05-2007, 08:57 PM

It is six grand. Your in CA by your location so you are allowed to file one case in small claims for up to five grand, or if you have filed already this year it is limited to twenty five hundred.

File your case against the buyer. (doubt he will show and defend)
Win your case (5k).
Then proceed to locate him and his bank accounts. Place lien on bank account and suck the money out. You can get reimbursed for the lien costs.

This way you will only be out one thousand instead of six thousand.

If by some chance you can come up with financial reasons to bump your six grand loss high enough to meet the superior court minimums do so. Then just do the same again. A paralegal can get all the paperwork done for you and you can represent yourself in court, unless he does fight it (again in CA).

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

It is six grand. Your in CA by your location so you are allowed to file one case in small claims for up to five grand, or if you have filed already this year it is limited to twenty five hundred.

File your case against the buyer. (doubt he will show and defend)
Win your case (5k).
Then proceed to locate him and his bank accounts. Place lien on bank account and suck the money out. You can get reimbursed for the lien costs.

This way you will only be out one thousand instead of six thousand.

If by some chance you can come up with financial reasons to bump your six grand loss high enough to meet the superior court minimums do so. Then just do the same again. A paralegal can get all the paperwork done for you and you can represent yourself in court, unless he does fight it (again in CA).

Awesome. Thanks for the advice.

Adultnet · 02-05-2007, 09:03 PM

fucked up don't see too much open options..

After Shock Media · 02-05-2007, 09:05 PM

BTW, you could get law enforcement envolved as well. It was fraud, over 500.00 and over state lines.

SaintElGrouch · 02-05-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

BTW, you could get law enforcement envolved as well. It was fraud, over 500.00 and over state lines.

I asked a lawyer about that and the guy told me that they'd start running away the second they heard internet crime.

reynold · 02-05-2007, 09:07 PM

Good point. Getting a default judgment on his ass can fuck his credit up and cause his ass some pain down the road. While it's not the same as getting the $6K back, the satisfaction that you contributed to that scumbag's eventual downfall does give some measure of relief and satisfaction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

It is six grand. Your in CA by your location so you are allowed to file one case in small claims for up to five grand, or if you have filed already this year it is limited to twenty five hundred.

File your case against the buyer. (doubt he will show and defend)
Win your case (5k).
Then proceed to locate him and his bank accounts. Place lien on bank account and suck the money out. You can get reimbursed for the lien costs.

This way you will only be out one thousand instead of six thousand.

If by some chance you can come up with financial reasons to bump your six grand loss high enough to meet the superior court minimums do so. Then just do the same again. A paralegal can get all the paperwork done for you and you can represent yourself in court, unless he does fight it (again in CA).

02-01-2007, 08:00 AM	#1
SaintElGrouch Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts: 307	I got scammed..looking for advice/tips i sold my site to bs1209 on sitepoint for $6,000 he sent me the money thru paypal i withdrew the money to my bank account and transferred the domain to him and gave him all the files the next month.....i go into my paypal account my balance says -$6,000 and my account was restricted i called them they told me that he reversed the payment and that i should ask him to pay them so they could clear my balance they never checked to see what happened on my end so at this point...he has his money and my site and i have a debt is there anything i can do?

02-01-2007, 08:02 AM	#2
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,372	that really sucks, try contacting the owners at sitepoint, usally people that are on sitepoint are good people to deal with, shitty you got the person thats low on the food chain __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

02-01-2007, 08:05 AM	#3
chowda Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gooch city Posts: 9,527	use escrow.com next time? __________________ Someone finds you... 2007 PS: Nationalnet is the best host I've ever had. And i tried alot of them.

02-01-2007, 08:19 AM	#4
Brooke Anderson Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Missouri, near Kansas City Posts: 346	File a dispute with paypal, they review the case after some time, and eventually can try and pull the money back. If they are on your side that is. Sad thing is, if he doesn't have the money in his bank, they only pull as much as is in his account. __________________ www.4realcash.com

02-01-2007, 08:55 AM	#7
leming ★ CONFIRMED DESIGNER ★ Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 1,818	Yep... It sucks __________________ DESIGN ★ BANNERS ★ LOGOS ★ 3D ★ VIDEO-EDITING Portfolio \| Telegram \| E-mail \| Skype:leming_

02-01-2007, 08:23 AM	#5
Klen Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Little Vienna Posts: 32,235	There are chargeback on paypal?Didnt know for that.

02-01-2007, 08:39 AM	#6
SaintElGrouch Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts: 307	When I contacted Paypal and filed a dispute they pretty much told me that there's not much they can do for online goods. I figure at the very least, I can try to get the domain back. Alot of the advice i'm getting is to try to contact a lawyer. Would there be anything that a lawyer would be able to do for me in this situation? And yes, I know now that I should have used an escrow service.

02-01-2007, 09:35 AM	#9
escorpio I love to racism, bro! Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA! USA! USA! Posts: 23,143	Fuck PayPal and their fucked up policy that allows fuckers to pull that shit. __________________ Unvaxxed, still alive.

02-01-2007, 09:57 AM	#10
jaffie Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 288	Yes I do agree, Fuck PayPal, Epassporte is the way to go ;] __________________ How To Choose A Web Host By Bob Brooke

02-01-2007, 11:16 AM	#11
BAKO Etology.com Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Hollywood CA Posts: 18,406	Sorry to hear about that __________________ Telegram: @bakokaye

02-01-2007, 11:17 AM	#12
CaptainHowdy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Happy in the dark. Posts: 93,589	Take cash only next time :/ ... __________________ Sig Coming Soon

02-01-2007, 11:48 AM	#13
Snap3 Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 808	Isnt Domainnames counted as virtual items? Then hes not able to do a chargeback.

02-01-2007, 11:56 AM	#14
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	Don't want to rub it in, but what were you thinking? Why would you even take 6k paypal in the first place? Anything over 1k should be wire only... __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

02-01-2007, 11:58 AM	#15
woj <&(©¿©)&> Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 47,882	There is still hope, you can try proving to them that your transfered the domain over to him... might even be worthwhile to get a lawyer to handle this?... but also look on the bright side, you didn't really lose anything yet, it could have been much worse, you just have -6k balance in paypal... __________________ Custom Software Development, email: woj#at#wojfun#.#com to discuss details or skype: wojl2000 or gchat: wojfun or telegram: wojl2000 Affiliate program tools: Hosted Galleries Manager Banner Manager Video Manager Wordpress Affiliate Plugin Pic/Movie of the Day Fansign Generator Zip Manager

02-01-2007, 12:01 PM	#16
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	Western Union > Paypal sometimes

02-01-2007, 12:01 PM	#17
wdsguy Ryde or Die Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: California-Shanghai Posts: 19,568	delete the bank account off your paypal record , remove your personal information and close your paypal account.

02-01-2007, 12:35 PM	#18
King of Queens Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Atlanta, Georgia ICQ 276-218-214 Posts: 1,288	Damn, Im sorry to hear this happen to you. Been through this twice myself First time I didnt get nothing back. 2'nd time the scammer paid me back almost 8 months later. I hope this work out in your favor but I doubt the scammer will ever load that account again. I would try to get sitepoint and the guys register involved. You may at least get your domain name back. __________________ Emails = $3.50 each \| girls gone wild \| Big Booty \| Big Booty Videos

02-01-2007, 01:51 PM	#19
germ ( o Y o ) Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 3,108	ouch, that really sucks man. best of luck in getting your money/site back. this is why i say "fuck paypal"

02-01-2007, 02:10 PM	#21
TenPinReaper Registered User Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 9	Start randomly sniping people at their home office.

02-01-2007, 02:11 PM	#22
JustinBackDoorCash Registered User Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 98	Paypal does not guarantee virtual goods (including domain names). Unfortunately this was a mistake on your part to sell via paypal. I dont see this being resolved in your favor. Next time make sure you use an escrow service that secures buyers payment! Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Justin __________________ ICQ: 105-650

02-02-2007, 12:10 AM	#27
Valoon Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: near the Mediterranean Posts: 52	Did you try to meet with an attorney from Paypal personally in order to discuss your metter without phone&emails ? In such cases personal contact could be better than any lawyer. 6K worths trying. __________________ GOLD LIVECAM SPONSOR

02-05-2007, 08:02 PM	#31
SaintElGrouch Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts: 307	I contacted GoDaddy and they told me to try to contact the people at WIPO for arbitration. All the laywers i've contacted so far are telling me that they don't do cases that are worth as much as mine. Does anybody know a different route I can take in this, or know someone in the Los Angeles area that may be willing to help?

02-05-2007, 08:07 PM	#32
ayne468 Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,738	Sorry I have no advice for you...but here is a good luck bump! Hope it all works out 4 u __________________

02-05-2007, 08:12 PM	#33
aico Moo Moo Cow Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Washington State Posts: 14,748	well you got the money, so just cancel your paypal account.

02-05-2007, 08:14 PM	#35
reynold Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Global Traveler Posts: 51,271	Paypal is so ONE SIDED and BIASED towards the buyer it's sick.... Fuck Paypal!

02-05-2007, 08:14 PM	#36
jeffrey Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 1,864	So you have your money in your bank. But hae a negative paypal ballance? So sign up for a new paypal if you still need paypal? Cause if thats the case then yes he got away with a scam, but at least your not out anythihg. __________________ Coming Soon!

02-05-2007, 08:17 PM	#38
SaintElGrouch Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: California Posts: 307	I got his information from the whois database, wondering if he's ever scammed anyone on here other than me maybe. Herron, Mike [email protected] 6101 Hopewell Ch. Rd Lancaster, Ohio 43130 United States 1849003211

02-05-2007, 08:25 PM	#39
Lykos Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: World Posts: 31,027	damn that really sux,hope u find him! __________________

02-05-2007, 08:30 PM	#40
RawAlex So Fucking Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: In a house. Posts: 9,465	I never understand this stuff. services like paypal and epass and others are made for small amounts. These companies are not banks, there is no security for your money in reality, and the rules are very arbitrary. This can be doubly bad if you are buying and selling with people overseas or far away, that would make legal action difficult or impossible. $6000 on paypal? Seriously, you signed up to get scammed doing that. Escrow services are the way to go. Yes, they take some of the action, but at $6000, the buyer can pay the escrow too. I am sorry you lost your site and your money, but geez...

02-05-2007, 08:47 PM	#42
Alphonso Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: FARM Posts: 544	contact the buyer man ... what the hell ?!? __________________ MEOWWWWW

02-05-2007, 08:57 PM	#44
After Shock Media It's coming look busy Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn". Posts: 35,299	It is six grand. Your in CA by your location so you are allowed to file one case in small claims for up to five grand, or if you have filed already this year it is limited to twenty five hundred. File your case against the buyer. (doubt he will show and defend) Win your case (5k). Then proceed to locate him and his bank accounts. Place lien on bank account and suck the money out. You can get reimbursed for the lien costs. This way you will only be out one thousand instead of six thousand. If by some chance you can come up with financial reasons to bump your six grand loss high enough to meet the superior court minimums do so. Then just do the same again. A paralegal can get all the paperwork done for you and you can represent yourself in court, unless he does fight it (again in CA). __________________ [email protected] ICQ:135982156 AIM: Aftershockmed1a MSN: [email protected]

02-05-2007, 09:03 PM	#46
Adultnet Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 8,713	fucked up don't see too much open options.. __________________ TrafficCashGold Paying Webmasters Since 1996! Awesome Conversions! Fast Weekly Payments! Over 125 Tours!

02-05-2007, 09:05 PM	#47
After Shock Media It's coming look busy Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn". Posts: 35,299	BTW, you could get law enforcement envolved as well. It was fraud, over 500.00 and over state lines. __________________ [email protected] ICQ:135982156 AIM: Aftershockmed1a MSN: [email protected]