I Think It Is Disturbing:

[Pathfinder]

This is the URL:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in509096.shtml

(CBS) In the weeks before the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush was told by U.S. intelligence that Osama bin Laden's terrorist network might hijack American airplanes, prompting the administration to issue a private warning to federal agencies, the White House acknowledged Wednesday night.

This indicates that President Bush was personally informed so this would put him in the loop.

What federal agencies were privately warned? What was the substance of the warnings to federal agencies? What were the actions taken by the federal agencies?

But when we talked about hijackings, we talked about that in the traditional sense of hijackings, not in the sense of somebody hijacking an aircraft and flying it into a building," the intelligence official said.

He said Mr. Bush had never been told about the potential for suicide hijackers steering the planes toward U.S targets.

I can believe the possibility suicide hijackers steering planes toward U.S. targets may not have been discussed with the President (if this is the case he has been poorly served). I do not believe that this possibility was never discussed among our security and intel agencies.

US targets abroad had already been attacked by truck (land), by boat (sea), so it would be idiotic to think that being attacked by air was never discussed.

Movie makers had thought of flying planes into targets. If I remember correctly one of Tom Clancy's novels used this scenario. I myself had thought of it (not using the WTC as a target), but had thought about hydro dams, and power plants. For those that may scoff at this; I think about such things. It probably has to do with the fact that I spent so many years in the military.

I think there needs to be a very serious investigation by congress into every aspect of 9/11 and our intel agencies. I think more and more information will be forth coming, including the discussion of using aircraft against US targets. I think it is extremely important to know who knew what, and when did they know it, and what exactly did the President know, and when did he know it.

I will repeat that I think there is much more information to be learned about 9/11. The most primary function of the Government is to protect our shores. This was not done and I for one am very interested in every detail about why it was not done.

[Sly_RJ]

Valid point. But I'm wondering, what exactly would you have liked Bush or the Feds do to prevent this? Of course, we could have shut down the airlines. But can you imagine the panic that would have occurred? Now of course, the after effect of 9/11 caused a great deal of panic. However, had everything been shut down prior to the actual incident, the country would have been in chaos, all for something that could have happened. Now I'm not saying we shouldn't try and prevent more incidents from happening, I'm just saying there are two sides to every situation and every story.

I understand that other people may want to know "who knew what", but it's not my main concern. My main concern from now on forth is preventing similar future incidents, finding every fucker who was involved, and nip terrorism and overall intracontinental violence in the ass.

[Pathfinder]

Sly_RJ:

But I'm wondering, what exactly would you have liked Bush or the Feds do to prevent this?

I don't have an answer for that question since I don't know what was known, and by whom, and when did they know it.

I understand that other people may want to know "who knew what", but it's not my main concern.

With out knowing all of the details about "who knew what" by (at the very least) the appropriate people, it would be difficult to correct what ever problems may have existed/exist.

[Nedder]

I remember seeing on ABC News like 4 years before a whole segment they did on this guy who said terrorists were planning on hijacking planes and ramming them into monuments, I think the info came from the Philippines...so everyone knew of the potential for it, they just never thought it would happen.

I mean seriously, even now with the security measures in place, it could easily happen again, you just have to count on us having disrupted the organization enough to keep them from doing it long enough that we can implement something better.


Very fucking sad.

Nz

[Pathfinder]

Nedder:

Terrorists might slip through airport security and hijack an aircraft, but they should not ever have the ability to fly into another target. As soon as an aircraft strays from its flight path fighters should be scrambled and, if necessary, shoot the aircraft down. This scenario is supposed to already be in place.

[FATPad]

Originally posted by Pathfinder
Nedder:

Terrorists might slip through airport security and hijack an aircraft, but they should not ever have the ability to fly into another target. As soon as an aircraft strays from its flight path fighters should be scrambled and, if necessary, shoot the aircraft down. This scenario is supposed to already be in place.

That's very easy to say right now....

What would have happened before 9/11 if a plane was hijacked and strayed from it's flight path and it was shot down? The US govt would be criticized from here to the end of time for killing it's own civilians for no apparent reason, and all the people who right now are saying "we shoulda done this, shoulda done that" would be saying "What in the hell did you have to shoot down the plane for and kill those hundreds of Americans?".

Hindsight is 20/20, and the Monday morning quarterback types are always right in their own little world.

[eroswebmaster]

Originally posted by Nedder
security measures in place

What makes me scared is our so called security measures.

At the airports security measures=Former McDonald's min. wager who finally got their GED.

[Vagisil]

im way too drunk, or id have a perfect answer to fuck all of your up... so puty our taile between your legs and consider yoruself served =)

[Pathfinder]

FATPad:

With hindsite we should have had the foresite to make it SOP to send up fighters to track aircraft that strayed from their flight paths. We fund think tanks of many types and with the US being under attack by terrorists world wide for as many years as we have been, with hindsite it should not have taken alot of foresite to visualize an attack by air.

There are alot of questions that should be investigated and should be answered.

eroswebmaster:

At the airports security measures=Former McDonald's min. wager who finally got their GED.

A famous General once said something along the line of: There are not any bad soldiers, only bad commanders.

My point being, if they are well trained, and well supervised, the security personell will not represent the major problem.

They certainly were not well trained, or well supervised prior to 9/11 and that is another matter that needs to be looked into.

[Slick]

What the plane companies should do is setup the plane where IF the plane strayed off of it's course without authorization from ground command, that groung command could somehow seize control of the plane, taking control of it and bringing it in for a safe landing. I don't know how realistic it is to do something like that, but that's something that I'd be digging into.

[Milton]

oh shit

[LoveAsianChicks]

1 problem is that airport security in the US pays very little.
No one picks that as a career and you have a high turnover rate.

Perhaps you pay them a decent salary and people would stay with the job.
Obvious that someone doing the same job for 5+ years is going to be better then someone working their 3 months.

In many countries the Airport security is paid well, but not in America for some reason.

[Sugarpuss]

[Pathfinder]

As would be expected the media is turning up the heat today for explanations. I hope congress turns up the heat, for as I have already stated, I think there is much more to be learned.

[DTK]

Originally posted by Slick
What the plane companies should do is setup the plane where IF the plane strayed off of it's course without authorization from ground command, that groung command could somehow seize control of the plane, taking control of it and bringing it in for a safe landing. I don't know how realistic it is to do something like that, but that's something that I'd be digging into.

This kind of technology definitely exists.

[Pathfinder]

Condoleezza Rice is speaking and holding a press conference as I am writing this. What she has said, and is saying, just opens the door for many more questions that need to be answered.

The administration has been blocking a congressional investigation since 9/11 but I suspect (and certainly hope) the congress will now open a full investigation into the 9/11 event.

[eroswebmaster]

You know we can sit here and debate who knew what and when...and debate whether or not we could have actually done anything about it....but the argument that this was all "pre-9-11" so we have to excuse ourselves for not being security conscious just does not hold water.

It is this arrogance we Americans have , that small town mentality that crime doesn't occur in our neighborhoods until little Miss Minnie BlueHair the 86 year old widow next door is beaten to death with a broken broom handle and then what do we say..."I never thought it would happen here."

Then we spend the next few weeks running out and buying guns, new locks for our windows and doors...a big rottweiller named Demon and a new security system...only to relax again a few months down the road.

Well the fact is it can happen here...and it will happen here AGAIN!.

9-11 was not the very first terrorist act every commited on American soil..and certainly not the very first every plotted.

We should have learned way before 9-11. Shit there's been terrorist acts committed against Americans especially military personnel since the 70's. We had to know it would eventually reach our front doors.

And when it did the first time at the WTC we got lucky...but did we learn?

Hell No!

So don't tell me our government couldn't have done something.

When you have an FBI field agent emailing the main office telling them that there is an marked increase in middle eastern men taking flying lessons and the threat of a hijacking is being mentioned you can't automatically assume that they mean hijacking in the "traditional sense."

Hijacking in the "traditional sense" usually involved armed men taking the CREW and the passengers hostage..and usually didn't involve FLYING the plane.

When the one guy Moussaui (sp?) was arrested after telling an instructor he didn't want to learn how to land..he only needed to know how to fly the red flags went up again.

Now connect the first warning/report to this one and you start to see a pattern here.

In fact one of the agents questioning Moussaui (as stated on CNN) said to another agent that he was the kind of man who would fly a plane into the WTC...the fucking clues were right there in front of their faces.

But once again we sat back oh so naively and assumed..."it won't happen here."

After the 9-11 affair I was sitting in my doctors office. My doctor does pilot physicals for the FAA.

Well a bunch of middle eastern men show up..this of course caught my attention so I paid attention to what they were doing.

A number of red flags popped up.
#1 They were all staying in dirty old motel usually reserved for drug dealers, hookers etc. (I visually scaned the application as they turned it into the secretary.)

#2 One man was instructing another on how to fill out the application at the doctors office. This had nothing to do with a language barrier and not being able to understand what was being read...the other man was telling him exactly what to fill out word for word and they were all speaking in english.

I phoned the FBI and informed them of this...did I ever hear back from them? No...not even a follow up just to make sure that I gave them all the information I could.

Well I tell you what folks....I don't think you realize how scared our gov is right now.

I have a friend right now working his way thorugh the process to become a border patrol agent...he just finished taking the test and is awaiting the results.

He did alot research into the jobs of border patrol, customs agent, and air marshal...and the simple fact is they have dropped a lot of requirements regarding length of training, education etc in order to fill the positions because our law enforcement is soooo fucking Taxed right now...they can't handle it all.

I can't imagine what the future could hold for us. Because we all know these asswipes will succeed in out doing their last little affair.

I know it's lengthy...sorry for those who don't want to take the time to read

[Pathfinder]

eroswebmaster:

Good post.

Some of the defenders (media, congress, and people in general)of the agencies involved, including the executive branch, are saying well it isn't fair to point fingers using 20/20 hindsite, and we don't want to see any heads role.

If an investigation exposed incompetence, or negligence, within our intel agencies, and within the adminstration, I for one want to see some heads role.

I repeat; with hindsite, there should have been more foresite, and with Condoleezza Rice's press conference today, I am more convinced than ever that there should have been more foresite, and that there is much more to be learned about 9/11.

I now have a clear understanding why the administration has been opposing a congressional investigation.

[Pathfinder]

Well, at the end of the day, some democrats, as well as some replublicans are calling for a congressional investigation and/or a special commission to investigate who knew what, when did they know it, and what action was taken.

If in fact the investigation/investigations does take place I will predict now that at some point in time the President will exercise executive privlige.

For those of you that think any investigation will be political and partisan in nature; it will be. Almost everything that happens in DC has political and partisan overtones, but this does not mean that important information cannot be learned.

[Pathfinder]

Day three and the polictical barbs have began to fly.

[Keev]

How many warnings does the USA recieve everyday? You cant expect them to protect each and everyone of them and tell the public people would be freaking everyday when they turn on the news!

[The Machine]

Yeah, but that doesn't change the fact that they didn't tell us that they knew something before 9/11 - however 'unspecific' that something was. They lied like the republican politicians they are And we would have never known if somebody hadn't "slipped". And that stinks big time.

Whether they could have done something to beef up the security at airports in the month they had - that's another question (personally I think they could have). But Bush was too busy pitching his Star Wars plans to the congress ... lol

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Keev
How many warnings does the USA recieve everyday? You cant expect them to protect each and everyone of them and tell the public people would be freaking everyday when they turn on the news!

I think your post is valid. That does not alter the fact that a full investigation needs to be done to see why there was a massive failure of the government to protect our shores so that chaff can be cut and procedures put in place.

Just yesterday another report was identified as having been prepared in 1999 by a "CIA group" that clearly states that terrorists had been planning to fly a plane loaded with explosives into the CIA.

Condoleezza Rice has stated that no one ever considered anything other than an ordinary Hijacking.

This is in my original post:

I can believe the possibility suicide hijackers steering planes toward U.S. targets may not have been discussed with the President (if this is the case he has been poorly served).

This is just day three and it is my opinion that a full investigation will show incompetence, negligence and just plain stupidity on the part of our intel agencies, and maybe the administration.

The incompetent, negligent and stupid, need to be weeded out at whatever level they are at. Top to bottom.

[Nedder]

ahhaha get your facts straight Machine...Cheney was on fucking TV within days after the attack saying they had got general warnings on hijackings and that they weren't specific enough to take action.

Sorry, he just took your argument and shoved it in your pie hole.

What u r seeing now is just rehash of old information from politicians grasping at straws because they see the Wall of Bush coming in the next congressional elections.

Nz

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Nedder
ahhaha get your facts straight Machine...Cheney was on fucking TV within days after the attack saying they had got general warnings on hijackings and that they weren't specific enough to take action.

Sorry, he just took your argument and shoved it in your pie hole.

What u r seeing now is just rehash of old information from politicians grasping at straws because they see the Wall of Bush coming in the next congressional elections.

Nz

Nedder:

I don't recall what Cheney said, or when, but the current information that was leaked to the press three days ago and information that is still coming to the fore is new and previously unknown to the public.

[The Machine]

Nedder, no personal remarks where they are unprovoked please. I watched that interview yesterday and Cheney was as vague as possible, yes, but it appears tht the report they had prior to 9/11 was not so vague at all. Apparently they knew that Al Qaeda and Bin Laden were the ones planning hijackings and in the near future at that. And Cheney and the gang never admitted to knowing that. All he said is that they had vague reports of possible hijackings - and that is not all they knew.

Cheers,
Machine

[Paul Markham]

American airline security prior to 9/11 was non existent.

Xmas 2000 Eva and I were flying to LA via Newark. Somehow I managed to lose my boarding pass for the 2nd leg, NY-LA. I was not allowed onto the plane. But my luggage went without me.

This was post Lockerbie, when terrorists put luggage on a plane and did not board. In Europe if this happnes by law the luggege has to be taken off the plane, no matter of flight shedules.

But it has not got a lot better. Last January I flew again to LA. On both NY-LA and back again the "computer" pulled me out to have my luggage examined. This is stupid, a computer checks whether you could be a terrorist? I must fit the profile exactly, 51 years old, flying from the Czech Republic, in business class with a frequent flyers gold card. In JFK on the return leg the two turkish students in front of me in the booking line were not so closely examined.

In Europe we take this seriously, people decide who will be checked and if some one screams racial prujudiice, so be it.

[Nedder]

Path and Machine, don't believe the hype.

The information you are referring to is information that came out in '99 before Bush even came to office, which wasn't a whole helluva lot different than information that came out of '95,96 from the Philippines.

Two admninistrations obviously didn't find the threats credible, they were both wrong. But this whole conspiracy bullshit that they knew it was going to happen it was on the horizon and they didn't do shit is just more X-files crapola.

Need to get real folks.

Nz

[The Machine]

Forget it - we won't change anything anyway - I'm getting out of politics as of now ...lol

So:

Cheers,
Machine

[Pathfinder]

Originally posted by Nedder
Path and Machine, don't believe the hype.

The information you are referring to is information that came out in '99 before Bush even came to office, which wasn't a whole helluva lot different than information that came out of '95,96 from the Philippines.

Two admninistrations obviously didn't find the threats credible, they were both wrong. But this whole conspiracy bullshit that they knew it was going to happen it was on the horizon and they didn't do shit is just more X-files crapola.

Need to get real folks.

Nz

Some of the information you are referring to (I think) was acted upon by the CIA. It is my understanding that the '99 information was actually obtained by a captured terrorist that was part of the planning, so this in and of itself may have curtailed that particular plan.

Ari Flietcher has already sung the tune that some of this information was pre George Bush so they were not aware of it. There should be institutional memory and they should have been aware that there were multiple plans that had been learned over the years about terrorist flying aircraft into targets.

Condoleezza Rice said that this had never even been considered or discussed in the briefings the President received and that no one had ever considered this possibility. I don't know that she is telling the truth about the briefings, but the scenario was certainly considered by intel (as we now know), and I believe there is much more to learn about this subject.

A full investigation needs to be done to see who new what, when they new it and what, if any, action was taken. I am not just talking about weeks, or months prior to 9/11. I am talking about since we first knew that we were under attack by UBL and his organization, by land and sea, and now by air. If in fact there has not been institutional memory this is plain stupid and needs to be fixed.

I am of the opinion that we have just seen the tip of the iceberg.

[Danny_C]

I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but Bush sure has lucked out, hasn't he? I mean, damn, he was quickly becoming the laughing stock of the world, had a terrible approval rating, and was bungling everything he put his hands on (while he wasn't selling everything to the oil companies).

Then 9/11 - he makes one speech without tripping over his own tongue and his approval rating skyrockets, thanks to the collective fear of the nation.

He rides that high approval rating all the way through Enron. If Enron had come out before 9/11, or if 9/11 had not happened, he would probably be back at his ranch unemployed by now.

But the greatest part: Bush got to dismantle the Taliban, and now he gets his oil pipeline.

Now, Gore Vidal has claimed that Bush knew it was coming, and purposely let it happen - figuring a minor terrorist attack (which may have been larger than he expected) might give him an excuse to dismantle the Taliban, since their unstable government was preventing his pipeline. Gore also claims that 11 FBI agents went to the administration with information on terrorist attacks, and were told to keep quiet about it, or they would face treason charges.

When I heard about Gore's book, I thought, "Well, things HAVE definitely worked out great for George, and I WOULD believe his incompetence may have allowed this to happen, but I just don't buy into the conspiracy idea."

Well, that's still my belief... it was incompetence, not conspiracy. But maybe it IS time to at least start investigating the man, and stop putting the president above questioning. At the very least, an investigation might put some of these accusations and implications to rest.

[Pathfinder]

Danny_C:

Well, that's still my belief... it was incompetence, not conspiracy.

That is correct and the incompetence goes from top to bottom in the intel agencies as well as the adminstration.

Institutional memory and a centralized intel filtering may have prevented 9/11.

[Pathfinder]

More and more information keeps coming out. The latest being the fact that the CIA had been tracking two of the terrorists, for months, that were aboard the aircraft on 9/11. This information was not provided to the FBI.

Dian Fienstein, who is on one of the investigating committees, said even more information of a shocking nature will be forth coming.

[Pathfinder]

Closed hearings are supposed to begin today. It will be interesting to see what, if any, new bits of info are leaked.

Open hearings are supposed to begin on the 25th.

By they way Egypt is now saying that they warned the CIA of an imminent attack on the USA, but without specifics as to time, date and target.

[Mr.Fiction]

Latest breaking news on the Bush hearings:
http://www.cnn.com/world/stories/0604/breaking/bush_impeached_and_deported.asp

[SykkBoy]

it still pisses me off that things like this could have been prevented if the hijackers couldn't have entered the damn cockpit....I'd always been wary of that...not so much for hijackers, but for the drunk guy stumbling down the aisle or the unruly passenger who decides he's not having a quality flight and wants to take it up with the pilot.......

One of my first web design clients is a guy who brokers private jets and even back then (1997) he scoffed at how there was 10 times the security on private planes than commercial planes....

[UnseenWorld]

I'm a Democrat at heart, with no love lost for Mr. Bush, but what people seem to want is for the government to think of every possibility and take actions against every possibility. However, as exploding shoes and planes flying into buildings have shown us, there is no way anyone could cover all bases without an omniscient mind and an infinite budget.

[^R3K^]

Originally posted by SykkBoy2
it still pisses me off that things like this could have been prevented if the hijackers couldn't have entered the damn cockpit....I'd always been wary of that...not so much for hijackers, but for the drunk guy stumbling down the aisle or the unruly passenger who decides he's not having a quality flight and wants to take it up with the pilot.......

One of my first web design clients is a guy who brokers private jets and even back then (1997) he scoffed at how there was 10 times the security on private planes than commercial planes....

WOW!! The Fag isnt banned!! Where ya been dude?

[Rochard]

How many warnings do you think come in to the White House every day? 10? 100? 1000?

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by UnseenWorld
I'm a Democrat at heart, with no love lost for Mr. Bush, but what people seem to want is for the government to think of every possibility and take actions against every possibility. However, as exploding shoes and planes flying into buildings have shown us, there is no way anyone could cover all bases without an omniscient mind and an infinite budget.

That's great, but when Bush/Ashooooo decided to cut funding and priorities to anti-terrorism work, which Clinton had made a major priority, then they need to take responsibility when something goes wrong. If you are the CEO of a huge company, and you change the direction of that company, and the direction you choose causes the company to get fucked, then you have to take the blame.

The same people who blamed Clinton for everything, and I mean everything that went wrong in the world for 8 years are now saying that Bush is completely blameless for something that he should have at least tried to prevent. The fact that the Bush family was doing business with the Bin Laden family in the years leading up to the attack is far more serious a problem then all of the made up Clinton "scandals" combined.

Most Americans from both parties support a full investigation into the 9/11 scandal. If it means that Clinton gets in trouble, fine. If it means that Bush gets impeached, fine. I don't care if both of these guys are found to be crooks and booted out of the country. Full disclosure for both men is what I would like to see. However, the real troubling thing to many people is that Bush is trying to do everything in his power to stop an investigation. Just like Nixon tried to stop the Watergate investigation, Bush is trying to stop the 9/11 investigation.

Ask yourself this. Why would Bush be working so hard to try to stop people from looking into what went wrong leading up to 9/11?

[jas1552]

What about the plan that was on Condoleeza Rice's desk that Bush had already decided to sign off on before 9/11? Did you know that plan was being drafted during the transition? What does this mean? It means Bush, operating off the same intel as Clinton had, decided to demand the Taliban had over Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden or else. How many terrorist attacks happened when Clinton was president. What did Clinton do about them?
Why didn't he have a plan on his desk? Didn't Clinton severely cut our defense budget. Wasn't it Bush who increased our defense budget right after he took office?

[Mr.Fiction]

Originally posted by jas1552
What about the plan that was on Condoleeza Rice's desk that Bush had already decided to sign off on before 9/11? Did you know that plan was being drafted during the transition? What does this mean? It means Bush, operating off the same intel as Clinton had, decided to demand the Taliban had over Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden or else. How many terrorist attacks happened when Clinton was president. What did Clinton do about them?
Why didn't he have a plan on his desk? Didn't Clinton severely cut our defense budget. Wasn't it Bush who increased our defense budget right after he took office?

Without arguing each of your points, which will turn this thread into a flame fest, let me just ask you this question.

Do we agree that there should be a full and independent investigation and both Bush and Clinton should be held accountable if they are found to have fucked up?

Forget Republican or Democrat for a second. Don't you agree that the American people deserve to know who fucked up and that person, or those persons, regardless of party, should be severely punished?

I say it's fine with me if Clinton gets his ass burned in an investigation. Do you say the same about Bush? Are you willing to look at the facts, and if they show that Bush could, or should, have prevented 9/11, then he should face the consequences?

That's what I'm saying. Fuck political parties, let's get to the bottom of this. Bush & Clinton can go to jail for all I care, let's find out who let this happen.

Everyone talks about "taking responsibility". Well now it's time for someone or several people to take responsibility for what happened on their watch.

[Pathfinder]

Mr Fiction:

You are on target. I did not start this thread to bash Bush or Clinton. It is about getting to the bottom of it all and letting heads roll where applicable and making necessary corrections in the hopes of avoiding further attacks.

[jas1552]

It just seems to me that congressional democrats really only want to talk about what did Bush know and when did he know it.
They don't want to go back and look at what Clinton did or didn't know before or do after the first WTC attack, the Cole bombing, the embassy bombings and whatever else.

As far as what investigations I'd be fine with. It should be done behind closed doors by the Senate intel committee. Any other way and it will inevitably become a political circus and that will not help us prevent future attacks. It will just divide the country.

[Pathfinder]

I just heard on the news this morning that the Senate intel investigating committee that went into closed session yesterday is going to investigate the intel agencies and the FBI covering the past 16 years.

I think this is encouraging news. It sounds as if they intend doing an in depth investigation.

[Pathfinder]

I am, and have been, watching a replay on C-span, of the Senate hearings today with the head of the FBI being grilled.

One thing that has come out is the FBI's computer system is terribly outdated. It was repeatedly stated today that their computers were not capable of this or that and that new computers were needed in order to process data as it needs to be processed. An ex agent that was interviewed by the media a couple of days ago said his seven year old son has a better computer then he did as an agent.

When Bush ordered the tax rebate, it makes me wonder why some of those billions were not spent on providing the FBI with a state of the art computer system?

Dumb question on my part?

[Pathfinder]

Well even more info has been learned. The 1998 report has been brought to light.