Fifty........,

I agree with where you said ending it only if it is going to die a horrible short death (I posted this earlier as well - prolonging an inevitably harsh young death would be cruel). But aside from that aren't most of the issues you mentioned problems with the system we've created and the people that we are - those of us who have been given the chance to live. The child didn't ask to come into existence thru tragic means, but it's here now. I can't see myself making a judgement call as to the value of that life, assuming it will be born a normal functioning child. I cannot assume it will be abused in foster care or tortured. Maybe it won't. I also wouldn't be comfortable with killing the child for rationalizations of population control etc. I could never fathom killing it because it "might" contain "rape traits" of the rapist. What if it doesn't? I used to thinkg of those same reasons as legitimate, but when I realize that we're talking about an innocent human that really wants nothing except to live - by natural law - our judgements on it seem inadequate.

all these pro lifers but there are 250,000 children in foster homes and orphanages. Life is sacred to these people til its born then its fuck them.

What about the child's decision?

I am for stem cell research. I am also pro abortion. Yes it is nasty and brutal. However, mommy usually knows what is best. Not you nor me. If abortion was illegal as it was long ago, you would have more mothers die because they had a hanger shoved in their uterus and bled to death. Then you would see fetuses dumped in the garbage dumps which is not cool. I believe you can legislate abortion but it will not be stopped regardless of what pro-lifers believe. Its a political thing. So what would happen if abortion was illegal and you have even more women and unborn babies die? Would pro-lifers then support legislated abortion as in the past? History repeats itself.... it always does. Sad but true.

i would prefer being a live in a foster home or orphanage anytime over being killed wouldn't you?

I quoted you, didn't respond to this part and was too late to edit...

Why are you naturally assuming that this baby is going to have the great life that you're portraying? I'm not saying we should abort the baby to save IT from potential misery, but life isn't always what it's cracked up to be. We all have our struggles, and I for one can't imagine living MY life knowing that I was the product of a rape. That ALONE would probably give ME serious mental issues.

To refer to a raped woman having to carry a baby for 9 months as an "Inconvenience", again, I just find incredibly callous.

I know what you mean, but at the same time, that says something about our society. We have institutions funded by our dollars, that are specifically made to help to raise these children. In other countries they would starve to death. We have the resources and we put resources toward these causes. As the richest nation on earth, it seems the least we could do, and we do it.

If those kids were aborted, that would essentially mean 250k dead ppl. If we asked them if they're happy they're alive, I wonder what the majority of them would say.

Very valid point.

If abortions were to stop being done tomorrow, by next summer there would be a massive influx of newborns into that already overclogged system. Not to mention the amount of incidents of women being butchered by pseudo-docters with coat hangers in back rooms all over the country.

It is a known fact that when abortion is outright banned in on area, women & couples (especially the very young ones) seek out legal procedures elsewhere or illegal procedures wherever they can find them.

Again I have to say to the staunch anti-abortionists.... what's so wrong with holding only yourselves to your ideals and stop trying to force everyone else around you to cowtow to your will?

Remember, you're not wrong... for you.
Your stance on this issue is 100% right.... for you.

Get it?

I'm not assuming the kid will have a great life. In fact, I'm not assuming anything at all. The kid may have a great or bad life - but it's not my choice to kill it because of the life I "think" it will have. Those on the pro-choice side appear to assume the kid is going to have a terrible life - be tortured, be a rapist, etc. Struggle is part of the beauty of life and I can tell you that even if I was a product of rape, I would want to be alive. I would feel tremendous joy that the rape victim found it in her heart to give me a chance to see the fruits of life.

When I said "inconvenience" I did qualify it by saying a "tremendous inconvenience". Is it really anything more? The scar is already there from the rape and will always be with the victim. I would interpret the birth of the child as the ONLY positive thing to come out of such a horrible ordeal.

Imposing their will on others is an inherent right of the church.

See what happens when you try to tell THEM what to do however.

It is the parent's decision, period.

If you still doubt me, the next time you are in a room with a woman who has just found out she is 3 weeks pregnant, bend down close to her abdomen and ask the baby what it's decsion is.

If you get an answer let me know.


Yes it's retarded, but so was your comment. The mother (and father if present) decide what is right for them and their prospective baby, not you.


Key part of that sentence: "not you"

I want to apologize for what's posted below. It is disturbing and disgusting and I do not wish to offend anybody. But it is this video that really pulled me over on the issue when I was already leaning in that direction.

I could not sleep at night if I knew I was responsible for what is in this video. To me, the 9 month birth process is glorious compared to this.

I would literally have nightmares from this which would scar me even further.


Graphic; warning; DO NOT click if you do not want to see an abortion take place.
http://jesushateschrist.com/Media/Vi...hoiceBlues.wmv

I could not justify this to myself on the basis of population control, potential bad life, rape traits, foster system etc. I could accept it if the alternative would be the mother's death in which case it makes no sense to end one life for another.

like the foster kid that was locked in closet while his foster parents went to a family reunion. He died in the closet tied up no water, ever meet kids from foster homes few have happy stories to tell. A large number of these kids wind up in the prison system. Like I said the pro lifers dont give a fuck once its born.

pro neither

Just FYI, I'm not coming at this from a religious standpoint. I'm not religious. This is purely moral + scientific basis. It's undeniably the beginning of a human existence. We're merely debating for what reasons an abortion should take place. Some reasons are legit, but fewer, I think, than most of us care to acknowledge - if we truly thought them.

Fair enough I'll agree to disagree because we're not going to agree. I have only question for you, or scenario if you will.

(First off let me say I hope it never happens to you...)

Imagine getting a phone call at 2 am one morning from your 15 year old, honour student daughter. She's crying hysterically and you have to rush out to pick her up. You ask her what's wrong, but she won't tell you. A couple of weeks go by and you find out from your wife that she was gang raped by three guys she didn't know. She goes to the police station, gives her statement etc etc.

Then you notice her shutting herself off from you and your wife. Her grades start to fall and you suspect she's doing drugs. You BEG her to talk to you. She won't. You BEG her to go to a professional to talk to. She won't. You look into her face and can see her suffering. But she won't talk to you.

About a month after the incident, she tells you she's weighed all the options and wants to have an abortion. Do you tell her it's the wrong thing to do? Keep in mind, that EVERY argument you have for her, SHE has an answer for you. And try to imagine her crying the whole time talking to you. Would you WANT her to have to go through 9 months of carrying a constant reminder of that day?

Yes, it is the right of "the church" to mandate to their flock what is right and wrong. Thankfully in modern society it is moreso the right of the individual to make the final decision over their own lives.

While I respect the opinion of guys like mike33 and even agree with them in part, I absolutely draw the line at allowing them to impose their beliefs on others, much as they'd like it to be so.

Again, thankfully the law falls in agreement with what I have said thus far.


I have to wonder how many of the anti-abortionists have ever looked at a ghetto/trailer chick on welfare with 8 kids and thought to themselves "hasn't she ever fucking heard of condoms??"..... lol. I'm sure we've all thought something like that about someone at one point or another. Then there are women who use abortion as a means of contraception and run to have their 5th, 6th and 7th one even.

It's a huge issue, much bigger than a mere thread on a porn board with a 2-option poll can cover. :D


All I know is banning abortion outright is not the answer and never will be. Period.

I didn't think you were coming from a religous point of view to be honest. It's just typical of the church and it is their stance on the issue. Sorry if I implied you were a religious freak. :winkwink:

That's a societal problem that could be rectified and has little to do with the children (the victim in all this). If we created better foster families/care would your position on abortion change?

It's like this:

A = good child
B = bad foster home

A + B = often problem child

If we change B we change the equation. We (those of us who were fortunate enough to be born into caring homes) have full control over B.

instead we eliminate A because it's easier.

I could not force her not to have an abortion. But I would explain to her that the life inside her had no choice in how it was made, and that two wrongs don't make a right, nor will having the abortion heal her wounds. The scar of rape will exist with or without the abortion. I would also explain that the child would be taken care of in a foster home and may be happy one day when he/she grows up that he/she had a chance at life. Maybe it will become a great successful person. Lastly, I would say that the child should not be a reminder of the rape - it should be a reminder of how precious innocent life is - innocent life (something good) that can come from something brutal and tragic. We must try to focus on the good aspects in a bad situation and make good from it or else we may wallow in pain indefinitely.

Your oversimplifying the issue, and not giving women enough credit for the decision they have to make.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, I think 95% of women seriously thinking about having an abortion struggle with the idea, and it's a proven fact that a great many of the ones that DO have an abortion have psychological problems afterwards. I wouldn't exactly call that EASY.

Well, again, I respect your right to have an opinion but disagree vehemently.

I'm not saying it's easy. Neither choice is easy. I'm saying that most people do it because of the two choices it is interpreted as the lesser of two evils and is at least assumed to be the better or easier choice. A choice has to be made and either choice will likely have repurcussions on a normal human.

Can you break my paragraph down on a per sentence basis and show me where and how you disagree with each statement. I'm truly interested in trying to figure out if my position is flawed.

I wonder if any of those preaching "pro-life" was in the situation of having an unwanted child...

Your position isn't flawed, if you're speaking for yourself. The flaw is in trying to impose those beliefs on others

...as I have already said in this thread.

I just want to make my point one more time.:2 cents:

If me putting a personal spin on it like I tried to above and trying to force you to see the OTHER victim didn't change your mind, I'm never going to convince you that your opinion is flawed. Just as you're never going to be able to convince me on THIS particular issue that MY position is flawed. It's simply a difference of opinion. Remember though, that I'm NOT talking about ALL abortions here, simply rape.

But I've got 20 minutes to kill...

Having an abortion WON'T heal her wounds. With that I agree. However, any healing period is going to be put off for 9 months and no offense, if my parents didn't support one of the most serious decisions I'll EVER make in my life, THAT would haunt me for a long time as well. Telling her to raise the child without recognizing her feelings in the matter is like a second rape to me.

Agree 100%. But I'm going to do what my DAUGHTER thinks is best. Being 16, I'll let her know BOTH sides of the issue and HELP her make the decision, not influence it because of my beliefs. If my daughter CHOSE to have the baby, I'd do everything I could to support her and help her with whatever she chose to do with the baby afterwards. But the person who I'm going to be concerned with the most, is my daughter. End of story.

See above. I'll make sure she gets both sides of the story, as any pro-choice person would do.

This is where I seriously have a problem with the church's views on things, again knowing that yours is not a religious view. The church TELLS you what's wrong and doesn't give you an option. The OTHER way is WRONG. Where as pro-choice people make SURE you see BOTH sides of the story. Who's the more rational? The church is all-loving and all-forgiving IF you follow THEIR path. (off topic but a VERY interesting read... http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/wes...-4235072c.html)

I'm sorry, but quite frankly your answer here sounds very preachy. Why you can't see the other victim or other side of the case, I don't know. I like to think that's one of my greatest assets. Seeing both sides of view, recognizing, acknowledging, and RESPECTING both sides of view. Then I'll give my opinion based on what I know, but ultimately the decision is someone else's. Just like you wouldn't want the law to be that your daughter MUST have an abortion BECAUSE she was raped and the potential IS there for that baby to grow up in a less than desirable environment, the same should hold true to the other side of the argument.

Focusing on the good on this particular issue would be reinforcing to my DAUGHTER that whatever choice she makes, I'll stand by and support her. Am I saying the baby may not be an innocent victim here? Unfortunately no, that may be the case. But this wasn't my daughters doing, and the absolute last thing I'd ever do to her, or anyone for that matter, is TELL them that what they're doing is wrong. No matter the decision she makes, having her parent tell them what they did was wrong is going to stay with them for the rest of their lives (which is why I say it's like a second rape).

I am not totally decided on this.

One thing I know you can't have is making it illegal except in cases of rape. Then you'd have women lying and saying their boyfriend raped them, just to get rid of the baby. How many innocent men would be going to prison?

Ron that was one of, if not the best posts I've ever seen written on this subject. Soundly reasoned, clearly written, concise points.

Nicely done.

I am definitely pro-abortion!

Thanks man. I try hard to come off as reasonable. :winkwink:

Neither. Pro common sense. There are too many factors and none can be judged without knowing details.

I am pro-pain (propane, get it? hahahaha)

I'm going to slap myself for that one now.

Ok one thing has stuck in my mind. "cycle of life"

Tossing out all moral and ethical reasoning behind an abortion. Just going to point out a simple scientific issue.

We as a race have unnaturally extended the natural life cycle of the human race. We have added numerous decades to ones lifespan. We have also made it so that the once barren woman can now have children and we have also extended the age so that older women can also still unnaturally bare children. We have in effect interrupted the life cycle of many things that typically take our lives due to its own effects on the human body where it resides.

That alone more than makes up for the breaking of the life cycle of others if they choose.

So I ask this question.

Are you pro virus and parasites or anti virus and parasites?
We do after all kill them by the millions and abort them at every chance and they too are part of the cycle of life.

pro abortion

too many people in this world

Pro choice... Until our so called civilized society stops killing each other and people in other countries for money.. hate.. love.. or whatever, that same society has no right dictating to anyone whether abortion is killing or not.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Agree - it's none of anyone's fucking business to make judgements on others they know nothing about :thumbsup

Even assuming that right is utterly arrogant and ignorant - experts exist with more qualification to make recommendations than a pisspot of unqualified public opinion.

Pro-Choice but since I can't give birth my opinion does't mean shit.

Pro-life for me.. its not the child's fault and its life where talking about here. we have no right to kill especially those innocent babies..

WoW at the fact that this is the first post that's actually touched on the issue as short as it was. The bottom line is that most of these arugements break down to using a kid as a punishment for being irresponsible for you behavior. Talking about instances like rape incest etc vs consentual sex basically breaks the debate down to using the kid as a 'punishment' for behavior.

The bottom line (philosophically) is that if a fetus is alive (and human) it has rights and if it isn't it doesn't. At what point does a child become a child and at what poitn are we trying to aford rights to a dividing cluster of cells.

The only other assumptions that can be questioned is whether or not humans even HAVE an implicit right to life; and additionally what even defines a human. If you consider a fetus (at stage X as the definition differs) alive then the fetus has rights, as anything else is a semantics game.



Either way there shouldn't be anyone out there that doesn't think the issue is so spiritually complicated that people should be able to make their own decisions on a case b case basis.



... Ergo pro choice.

Pro Choice!

What the fuck's this ? "pro-abortion" ?

No one can be "pro-abortion" it's just not our fucking business THAT'S IT ! It's a case by case thingo.

The survey should have been "pro-choice" and "pro-life"

We should dump all the kids into the backyard of a pro-life fucktard and ask him after a few months/years how he feels about it. Now if the girls doesn't want the kid, there is a fucking good reason for it and it's HER choice. Where the so called "pro-life" fucktard be when the baby will be in need ? It's so easy to go in the streets saying "pro-life" "pro-life" "pro-life".

I could not care less what other people do. I could not care if someone aborted 10 babies, It has nothing to do with me If a child is not wanted why the fuck bring one up? Then the answear to this is "why not give it up at birth?" there are millions of children in care around the world why add to it. These people who say I am against abortions away and adopt a couple of children.

also it should not be the mothers choice it should be a joint choice with the father too

How about this:
I'm pro-life and therefore for abortions.