Germans, jail time for denying Holocaust?

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  • Sly
    Let's do some business!
    • Sep 2004
    • 31376
    #1

    Germans, jail time for denying Holocaust?

    I once heard that in Germany if you deny the Holocaust you can get jail time. Is this true? Then I was just reading about this EU bill proposed by France that anyone who denies that the Armenian slaughter was an all out genocide will face prison as well. Sure, denying the Holocaust is pretty ignorant, but if laws are going to start penalizing stupidity I'm sure we could all come up with a pretty big list of stupididities to punish.

    Someone please explain.
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    • Libertine
      sex dwarf
      • May 2002
      • 17860
      #2
      It's that way in most EU countries.

      It isn't really about punishing stupidity though. Imagine the period just after the second world war. Millions in Europe had died, the entire continent lay in ruins. Everyone in Europe was still scared the Nazi's would somehow resurface, and win the second round - like the monster in a bad horror movie. To prevent that from ever happening, many pieces of nazist/fascist thought were banned entirely.

      Later, it became almost impossible to change such laws, since almost everyone in Europe had lost family members in WWII - changing laws like that would feel like "becoming accepting lenient of fascism". And, of course, apart from how that would make survivors feel like their dead family had been forgotten, everyone was afraid that it would be the first step toward forgetting what had happened.

      Now, the EU bill proposed by France is something different entirely. Basically, it's a reaction to Turkey's persecution of those who say a genocide did happen. With Turkey still (roughly) on the path to joining the EU, and a majority of EU citizens opposed to that, politicians consider it essential to make some strong demands of Turkey if they are ever to join, and to give a clear signal that Turkey isn't just "getting in for free".

      Personally, though, I think that people should be allowed to be as stupid as they want to be... their ignorance is much more easily exposed by allowing them to speak freely than by banning their ideas.
      /(bb|[^b]{2})/

        Comment

        • Dagwolf
          President of Canada
          • Sep 2003
          • 23141
          #3
          Originally posted by Libertine
          Personally, though, I think that people should be allowed to be as stupid as they want to be... their ignorance is much more easily exposed by allowing them to speak freely than by banning their ideas.
          I agree, debating harmful ideas is probably better than suppressing them. It's too bad you have to start over with every generation.
          Sleep well, and dream of large women.

            Comment

            • Sly
              Let's do some business!
              • Sep 2004
              • 31376
              #4
              Ah, so France is basically trying to piss off Turkey? Got it...
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                • MaDalton
                  I am Amazing Content!
                  • Feb 2004
                  • 39861
                  #5
                  Originally posted by Libertine
                  It's that way in most EU countries.

                  It isn't really about punishing stupidity though. Imagine the period just after the second world war. Millions in Europe had died, the entire continent lay in ruins. Everyone in Europe was still scared the Nazi's would somehow resurface, and win the second round - like the monster in a bad horror movie. To prevent that from ever happening, many pieces of nazist/fascist thought were banned entirely.

                  Later, it became almost impossible to change such laws, since almost everyone in Europe had lost family members in WWII - changing laws like that would feel like "becoming accepting lenient of fascism". And, of course, apart from how that would make survivors feel like their dead family had been forgotten, everyone was afraid that it would be the first step toward forgetting what had happened.

                  Now, the EU bill proposed by France is something different entirely. Basically, it's a reaction to Turkey's persecution of those who say a genocide did happen. With Turkey still (roughly) on the path to joining the EU, and a majority of EU citizens opposed to that, politicians consider it essential to make some strong demands of Turkey if they are ever to join, and to give a clear signal that Turkey isn't just "getting in for free".

                  Personally, though, I think that people should be allowed to be as stupid as they want to be... their ignorance is much more easily exposed by allowing them to speak freely than by banning their ideas.
                  very well said...

                  and i agree for most of it

                  yes, it's true, you can get jailtime for denying holocaust (but can't get jailtime for producing porn as long no kids or animals are involved - btw).

                  i'm not sure whether it should be allowed to speak freely about it, too much people are too stupid or too easily influenced. In every other country yes, in Germany - unsure. Because of our special history.

                  i would prefer that more kids learn about our history in school - too make sure something like that cannot happen again.
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                    • godisdead
                      Confirmed User
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 1213
                      #6
                      The right to be stupid is a part of freedom.
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                        • Odin
                          Confirmed User
                          • Jan 2004
                          • 2545
                          #7
                          Originally posted by Libertine
                          It's that way in most EU countries.

                          It isn't really about punishing stupidity though. Imagine the period just after the second world war. Millions in Europe had died, the entire continent lay in ruins. Everyone in Europe was still scared the Nazi's would somehow resurface, and win the second round - like the monster in a bad horror movie. To prevent that from ever happening, many pieces of nazist/fascist thought were banned entirely.

                          Later, it became almost impossible to change such laws, since almost everyone in Europe had lost family members in WWII - changing laws like that would feel like "becoming accepting lenient of fascism". And, of course, apart from how that would make survivors feel like their dead family had been forgotten, everyone was afraid that it would be the first step toward forgetting what had happened.

                          Now, the EU bill proposed by France is something different entirely. Basically, it's a reaction to Turkey's persecution of those who say a genocide did happen. With Turkey still (roughly) on the path to joining the EU, and a majority of EU citizens opposed to that, politicians consider it essential to make some strong demands of Turkey if they are ever to join, and to give a clear signal that Turkey isn't just "getting in for free".

                          Personally, though, I think that people should be allowed to be as stupid as they want to be... their ignorance is much more easily exposed by allowing them to speak freely than by banning their ideas.
                          Interesting that throughout the whole second world war when they allied themselves with another communist fascist (yeah, they don't always contradict) named Stalin that they never went so far as to outlaw denying the Soviet Holocaust in the Ukraine of 1932 and 1933 in which millions were also genocided. Or outlawing denial of the millions that were killed in the Gulags from all across Eastern Europe? Or how about outlawing Communism all together? Like they have Nazism? I mean for the 40 odd years after WWII that you talked about certainly Communism was much more a threat to Western Europe than Nazism, and certainly it was doing MUCH more damage to the people of Eastern Europe than Nazism at that time no?

                          Why is it that parliamentarians in Europe sing along to the Communist anthem 'the internationale', yet OUTLAW Germans from even singing the original national anthem in which they declare 'Germany before all others', not for supremacist reasons, but to encourage the various regions of Germany, such as Bavaria, to come together as one. Europeans are absolutely hypocrits on this matter, and rather than criticisng the US for the Patriot Act, etc (which is certainly not a step in a good direction either) they should concentrate on hoping to get the same speech freedoms guaranteed to US citizens in their Constitution, rather than making excuses for their leftist authoritarian Governments.

                          And here is a perfect example Sly. Le Pen (a French veteran of WWII - who fought against the Nazi's) recently said "In France, at least, the German occupation was not particularly inhumane, although there were some blunders, inevitable in a country of 550,000 sq km." He is now on trial for these remarks, apparently he was denying the Holocaust, and faces heavy fines or jail time.

                          http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...357865,00.html
                          Last edited by Odin; 10-10-2006, 01:45 AM.
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                            Comment

                            • Odin
                              Confirmed User
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 2545
                              #8
                              Originally posted by MaDalton
                              very well said...

                              and i agree for most of it

                              yes, it's true, you can get jailtime for denying holocaust (but can't get jailtime for producing porn as long no kids or animals are involved - btw).

                              i'm not sure whether it should be allowed to speak freely about it, too much people are too stupid or too easily influenced. In every other country yes, in Germany - unsure. Because of our special history.

                              i would prefer that more kids learn about our history in school - too make sure something like that cannot happen again.
                              Does that include the history of the Stasi? Just curious, as it seems Germans demonise themselves much less over this issue, and just rationally moved on with their lives. Seems to me Germans have degraded themselves enough already over WWII, maybe when your capital cities resemble Turkey (I know many are on their way already) you will learn not to hate yourself so much.
                              ICQ: 637//961--015

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                                • Gentle_Ben
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Nov 2005
                                  • 733
                                  #9
                                  Ernst Zundel has served time for doing exactly this and deserves to be locked up.

                                  He's a sick and dangerous fuck.
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                                    Comment

                                    • Odin
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Jan 2004
                                      • 2545
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by Gentle_Ben
                                      Ernst Zundel has served time for doing exactly this and deserves to be locked up.

                                      He's a sick and dangerous fuck.
                                      And how many people say the same thing about pornographers? I don't really know the guy your talking about, heard his name, but if he didn't threaten anyone with violence, he certainly doesn't deserve time in prison. Remember, it's a slippery slope, and porn isn't very far down the hill.
                                      ICQ: 637//961--015

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                                        • Boss Traffic Jim
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • Nov 2002
                                          • 1150
                                          #11
                                          Interresting reading for sure Sly

                                            Comment

                                            • LB-69
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Nov 2005
                                              • 1322
                                              #12
                                              Originally posted by Sly
                                              I once heard that in Germany if you deny the Holocaust you can get jail time. Is this true? Then I was just reading about this EU bill proposed by France that anyone who denies that the Armenian slaughter was an all out genocide will face prison as well. Sure, denying the Holocaust is pretty ignorant, but if laws are going to start penalizing stupidity I'm sure we could all come up with a pretty big list of stupididities to punish.

                                              Someone please explain.
                                              Deniying horrible death of 6 million civilians its not a stupidity, its a crime, and its should be punished !
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                                                • gooddomains
                                                  Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                  • Jul 2003
                                                  • 10127
                                                  #13
                                                  so many informed people, it really gives me headaches...

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Lazonby
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                      • 2262
                                                      #14
                                                      It's got nothing to do with penalizing stupidity. If that were the case, then most of the EU ministers themselves would be in prison. Stupidity is rife in Europe. We have this thing called 'socialism', which everyone knows doesn't work and which everyone knows causes misery but we still have to put up with it. It's pure stupidity to keep trying the same thing over and over again even though it didn't work the first 30 times.

                                                      People do not deny the WW2 holocaust or the Armenian genocide because they are stupid. They know damn well that those genocides occured. They deny them because they support them. And it's a good idea to lock up people who support genocide against innocent people. Neither the Jews, gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals or Armenians deserved what happened to them.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Antonio
                                                          Too lazy to set a custom title
                                                          • Oct 2001
                                                          • 14136
                                                          #15
                                                          hasn't this always been the case?

                                                          Don't agree with it though, may be it made sense few decades ago but now?

                                                          I'd rather have the freedom to say and write what I want without the fear of being jaied.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • frank7799
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Jul 2003
                                                              • 1974
                                                              #16
                                                              Originally posted by Sly
                                                              I once heard that in Germany if you deny the Holocaust you can get jail time. Is this true? Then I was just reading about this EU bill proposed by France that anyone who denies that the Armenian slaughter was an all out genocide will face prison as well. Sure, denying the Holocaust is pretty ignorant, but if laws are going to start penalizing stupidity I'm sure we could all come up with a pretty big list of stupididities to punish.

                                                              Someone please explain.
                                                              You are right so far. There are three regulations in the German criminal code. §§ 86, 86a and 133 III StGB (StGB is criminal code). The latter penalizes denying of the holocaust.

                                                              I personally do not support those laws, neither in Germany nor anywhere else.
                                                              National socialism can not be prevented by those laws. Look at the UK. You can buy all Nazi material at the London war museum. And I can not recognize any problems so far.

                                                              National socialism is caused by other problems. Unemployment is one reason, there are many others for sure.

                                                              So those laws are pretty much stupid, but it´s a cheap way for politicians to show they are trying to fight national socialism.

                                                              It´s similar to porn laws, btw. the Erfurt school massacre for example caused a law in Germany which forces German webmasters to use this adult verification system where the surfer has to register by regular mail before he can get access to the online content.

                                                              I can not see any valid reason how this will prevent massacres as mentioned above.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • frank7799
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • Jul 2003
                                                                  • 1974
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Originally posted by Lazonby
                                                                  It's got nothing to do with penalizing stupidity. If that were the case, then most of the EU ministers themselves would be in prison. Stupidity is rife in Europe. We have this thing called 'socialism', which everyone knows doesn't work and which everyone knows causes misery but we still have to put up with it. It's pure stupidity to keep trying the same thing over and over again even though it didn't work the first 30 times.

                                                                  People do not deny the WW2 holocaust or the Armenian genocide because they are stupid. They know damn well that those genocides occured. They deny them because they support them. And it's a good idea to lock up people who support genocide against innocent people. Neither the Jews, gypsies, Slavs, homosexuals or Armenians deserved what happened to them.
                                                                  Nobody deserves this but looking around the world today i really can´t see that those laws have prevented it happening.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Lazonby
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                                      • 2262
                                                                      #18
                                                                      Originally posted by m4yadult
                                                                      Nobody deserves this but looking around the world today i really can´t see that those laws have prevented it happening.
                                                                      Well we'll never know, because we haven't been able to run two realities side by side. But the fact of the matter is that Germany has not come close to repeating any of it's pre-1946 crimes, therefore any measures introduced since then to ensure this can be considered, in the absense of any evidence to the contrary, as being successful. It's difficult for Nazism to become a powerful force when it's leaders would be jailed as soon as they opened their mouths.

                                                                      In terms of whether genocide is ever justified, the answer is: we'll find out about this in the coming few decades. At some point it might become necessary to exterminate or intern everyone who thinks that killing and enslaving infidels, owning women like cattle and throwing homosexuals from high buildings is a groovy thing to do. The safety and wellbeing of the 6 billion non-jihadis on this planet outweigh the rights of the 500 million jihadis and their enablers.

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Lazonby
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • Feb 2006
                                                                          • 2262
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Originally posted by m4yadult
                                                                          Nobody deserves this but looking around the world today i really can´t see that those laws have prevented it happening.
                                                                          I'd just like to add that the areas in the world in which there have been genocides in the last 60 years have also been the areas in which there are no such laws against denying past occurences of genocide. Coincidence or not?

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Odin
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Jan 2004
                                                                              • 2545
                                                                              #20
                                                                              Originally posted by Lazonby
                                                                              I'd just like to add that the areas in the world in which there have been genocides in the last 60 years have also been the areas in which there are no such laws against denying past occurences of genocide. Coincidence or not?
                                                                              As someone already said, National Socialism and what followed was a result of the conditions, not the laws that existed. Why is neo-Nazism so damn popular in East Germany? Is it because they don't have laws there outlawing it? Of course they do, just like the rest of Germany. It is popular there because of the conditions, the unemployment, the education system, etc. If the conditions of post-WWI were repeated do you really think these laws would do anything? Guns and bombs would simply replace words. These laws don't prevent anything, and as I already said, it's a slippery slope. The US model of free speech, in my opinion, is the most fair and just.
                                                                              ICQ: 637//961--015

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                                                                                • Jenny S.
                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                  • Apr 2006
                                                                                  • 582
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  Not sure

                                                                                  I think there is nothing wrong with free speech. In a normal country it doesn't matter if 3000 wackos deny the holocaust, as long as there are 300 million normal ones.

                                                                                  Suppression of free speech often seems to cause the exact opposite of what's intented. In the country where fascism was shunned most, namely in former East Germany, the nazis gained ground big time after the wall came down and the communist regime fell.
                                                                                  Jenny Seemore
                                                                                  Pornography is the bloody gladiator who stands guard over the First Amendment

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Jenny S.
                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                      • Apr 2006
                                                                                      • 582
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by Chief
                                                                                      The US model of free speech, in my opinion, is the most fair and just.
                                                                                      ??? In Alabama you can go to jail for selling a vibrator. Not even the Nazis had such laws.
                                                                                      Jenny Seemore
                                                                                      Pornography is the bloody gladiator who stands guard over the First Amendment

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Lazonby
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • Feb 2006
                                                                                          • 2262
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Originally posted by Chief
                                                                                          As someone already said, National Socialism and what followed was a result of the conditions, not the laws that existed. Why is neo-Nazism so damn popular in East Germany? Is it because they don't have laws there outlawing it? Of course they do, just like the rest of Germany. It is popular there because of the conditions, the unemployment, the education system, etc. If the conditions of post-WWI were repeated do you really think these laws would do anything? Guns and bombs would simply replace words. These laws don't prevent anything, and as I already said, it's a slippery slope. The US model of free speech, in my opinion, is the most fair and just.
                                                                                          I'm aware that loony socialists are willing to blame everything on 'environmental conditions', but the fact is that poverty and unemployment do not cause people to suddenly hate Jews, Gypsies and gays. Being poor does not cause people to want to stuff other people into ovens and burn them. People are responsible for their own beliefs and actions, and to legitimise Nazism by saying that is the inevitable product of unhappy people is to admit that you haven't been paying attention.

                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                            • Lazonby
                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                              • Feb 2006
                                                                                              • 2262
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Originally posted by Jenny S.
                                                                                              ??? In Alabama you can go to jail for selling a vibrator. Not even the Nazis had such laws.
                                                                                              They concentrated on exterminating their homosexual population instead. but obviously, jailing people for selling vibrators (if indeed this actually occurs) is far worse. Idiot.

                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                • AaronM
                                                                                                  GFY Royality ;)
                                                                                                  • Oct 2001
                                                                                                  • 46923
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  Holocaust?

                                                                                                  What holocaust?

                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                    • Lazonby
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                                                                      • 2262
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Jenny S.
                                                                                                      I think there is nothing wrong with free speech. In a normal country it doesn't matter if 3000 wackos deny the holocaust, as long as there are 300 million normal ones.

                                                                                                      Suppression of free speech often seems to cause the exact opposite of what's intented. In the country where fascism was shunned most, namely in former East Germany, the nazis gained ground big time after the wall came down and the communist regime fell.
                                                                                                      I think if you were a German who had survived what Nazism had done to their country, you would have a different attitude.

                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • ae-sc
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • Sep 2006
                                                                                                          • 507
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by Jenny S.
                                                                                                          ??? In Alabama you can go to jail for selling a vibrator. Not even the Nazis had such laws.
                                                                                                          YEah, Ive heard this one before, but for denying the holucaust?

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                                                                                                            • DaddyHalbucks
                                                                                                              A freakin' legend!
                                                                                                              • Feb 2004
                                                                                                              • 18975
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              The Jews say "never again" and want sympathy for their suffering in WWII, but what have they done/ are they doing about modern genocides such as Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc..?

                                                                                                              What have they done to acknowledge the Armenian genocide in WWI?
                                                                                                              Boner Money

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • Lazonby
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Feb 2006
                                                                                                                  • 2262
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by DaddyHalbucks
                                                                                                                  The Jews say "never again" and want sympathy for their suffering in WWII, but what have they done/ are they doing about modern genocides such as Bosnia, Rwanda, Darfur, etc..?

                                                                                                                  What have they done to acknowledge the Armenian genocide in WWI?
                                                                                                                  Dumbest post of the day? Maybe.

                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • Manowar
                                                                                                                      jellyfish  
                                                                                                                      • Dec 2003
                                                                                                                      • 71528
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      It's a dangerous topic

                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                        • Temp1
                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                          • May 2005
                                                                                                                          • 180
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Originally posted by m4yadult
                                                                                                                          You are right so far. There are three regulations in the German criminal code. §§ 86, 86a and 133 III StGB (StGB is criminal code). The latter penalizes denying of the holocaust.
                                                                                                                          And what do the former 2 criminalize? Singing of the old anthem? Wearing nazi emblems? Making nazi gestures?

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • frank7799
                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                              • Jul 2003
                                                                                                                              • 1974
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Temp1
                                                                                                                              And what do the former 2 criminalize? Singing of the old anthem? Wearing nazi emblems? Making nazi gestures?
                                                                                                                              Yes, they include but are not limited to Nazi symbols. For example a part of the national anthem of Germany is forbidden.

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • lambpie
                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                                                                                  • 671
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  ya gotta feel sorry for todays generation of germans, so hard for them to escape from a past they are not responsible for..

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • frank7799
                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                      • Jul 2003
                                                                                                                                      • 1974
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Lazonby
                                                                                                                                      Well we'll never know, because we haven't been able to run two realities side by side. But the fact of the matter is that Germany has not come close to repeating any of it's pre-1946 crimes, therefore any measures introduced since then to ensure this can be considered, in the absense of any evidence to the contrary, as being successful. It's difficult for Nazism to become a powerful force when it's leaders would be jailed as soon as they opened their mouths.
                                                                                                                                      I do not agree so far. There are ways in germany and in other countries to avoid the restrictions. And referring to crimes comitted in Germany after May 8th 1945 I may remind you that in th eastern part of germany some of the old KZ´s were reopened by the communists and - powered by Stalin and his German fellows - used to get rid of political enemies.

                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Lazonby
                                                                                                                                      In terms of whether genocide is ever justified, the answer is: we'll find out about this in the coming few decades. At some point it might become necessary to exterminate or intern everyone who thinks that killing and enslaving infidels, owning women like cattle and throwing homosexuals from high buildings is a groovy thing to do. The safety and wellbeing of the 6 billion non-jihadis on this planet outweigh the rights of the 500 million jihadis and their enablers.
                                                                                                                                      I agree so far. We all should try to avoid this situation. But history is based on those stories the winners tell. My grandmother had the pleasure to be born in Danzig, a former german city today Gdansk in Poland. She was polish and married with a German who was member of the social democratic party and refused to join the NSDAP. While Danzig was german, they were the fucking "Pollaks" - an impolite expression used for polish people. When the red army entered Danzig, they luckily weren´t the fucking Pollaks any longer, but became the fucking Germans. Their house was burned down by the red army and my grandfather nad one of his daughters were killed, long ago after May 8th.

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • Jenny S.
                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                          • Apr 2006
                                                                                                                                          • 582
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Lazonby
                                                                                                                                          They concentrated on exterminating their homosexual population instead. but obviously, jailing people for selling vibrators (if indeed this actually occurs) is far worse. Idiot.

                                                                                                                                          Did you just call me an idiot because I voiced my opinion for free speech?

                                                                                                                                          I never said the nazis killing gay people is OK or even better than hillbilly cops in bama arresting bookstore owners for selling dildos. It does, however, all derive from the same roots, namely fascists or arch conservatives telling people what to say, who to fuck, who to arrest&kill, what to think, and finally, what to stick up inside their puss.

                                                                                                                                          In Germany it were jews and gays, in Turkey it was Armenians, and in the USA it was native americans who didn't fit into the system, and they all suffered the same: death.
                                                                                                                                          Last edited by Jenny S.; 10-10-2006, 04:13 PM.
                                                                                                                                          Jenny Seemore
                                                                                                                                          Pornography is the bloody gladiator who stands guard over the First Amendment

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