xfanz.com vs avn.com internet vs video - industry discussion

[FightThisPatent]

I didn't see any thread so far on gfy, but xbiz launched http://www.xfanz.com

its a destination site for consumers/surfers.. much like with avn.com - focuses on video.

with another porn portal launching, it has given me a chance to ponder on some things.

I wanted to poll people's take on some issues in this thread based on some of my own observations about the changes i see happening in the industry:

- i have seen the divide between the video side of the adult biz and the internet.,. where the video people who have usually been running their business for awhile look at the internet companies like little kiddies. And the internet side sees the video side as being "old school" that they missed the internet or slow to adopt the internet.

traffic has been king for a long time, but i see a shift to content being king. There are portals and aggregrators for traffic (ie. youtube, etc) as well as search engines, porn directories, P2P, etc, etc... (some high trafficking affiliates could just become their own paysites by adding content).

I can see how surfers looking for newer and fresher content that is more exclusive then seeing the same galleries on different sites that come from the same big content producers. (this may cause some content producers to turn paysites.. Paul Markham comes to mind)

i can see a few internet companies starting to lead the path with video companies (smashbucks comes to mind immediately with them partnering with VCX). I can see more of these video/internet mash-ups happen, but only a few companies would be able to pull that off.

I see new paysites popping up with more and more shooting their own content and getting that exclusive angle on their content. Will these faster moving internet companies leap ahead of video companies who are gearing to be more internet-based because the internet side can produce content faster than the production-based methods of studios?

Will consumers be more narrowly focused to clips rather than want a full length DVD movie?

New technology such as burning DVD to a person's own burner (ie. ObjectCube) is great stuff, but does that go against the fickleness of these new generation of surfers who want more for less price and in less time?

Consumers were used to the fast-forward button on their remote for DVD, but internet offerings now have clips chopped up into scenes.

surfers are being amused by 30 second clips on various sharing sites.

Can one mega paysite contain a surfer? or will feeding content to aggregating websites with micropayment or token-based systems be the way to go?

Will the AVS model come back with a ring of micro-content websites that cater to the quick clip rather than to some full themed website?

With pressure of COPA being revisited and other issues, age verification may be truely implemented as a way of keeping minors out and letting adults find adult content.

Lots of different ideas, but they are all somewhat related to each other as porn evolves itself to address both the supply and demand issues in regards to consumers.

and where does that leave the new content producers and webmasters coming in? are they forced to create their own content? how will they distribute? build their own sites and try to get traffic? funnel their content into some kind of AVS / content sharing site with clips, etc?

probably too many things thrown in, so i'll stop for now to see where the thread goes.



Fight the rambling!

[squishypimp]

i just checked out xfanz.com it looks pretty neat

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

I didn't see any thread so far on gfy, but xbiz launched http://www.xfanz.com

its a destination site for consumers/surfers.. much like with avn.com - focuses on video.

didn't get to hit the edit button fast enough.. was trying to correct that the portal focuses on consumers with video and internet



Fight the correction!

[djroof]

Nice try!

[MaDalton]

i just can say: as a content producer i will take every possibility to make money with my content - and i don't care if it's old school, new school, B2B or B2C - i just need more time

[MikeHawk]

Brandon....great post...

Follow the bouncing ball is what i say, old shit will remain "old shit" ....watch closley at the Myspace/Youtube/pornotube/ education of the surfer......who wants to come to a plain site and jack off? Seems as though surfers want to jack off in a group or with there friends....

As for video biz that divide will be there until as a group we do the same as they did years ago...combine and come together as one. Its an exciting time in our biz now, its a foot race to grab and make the exclusive deals with major studios. But most Internet groups will have a hard time doing that since the "old school" guys are a group that make deals face to face and it takes some "social chops" to make it work....and it takes a program that makes money and turn there content into $$$$

Last year i posted on this board we went to the AVN awards, and we saw the future of our biz......Could not have been more right, this year we have our own big table next to some of the biggest studios in the world we have signed Joint Venture deals with, (those will be announced shortly).....exciting times for Smashbucks.


Also i will just say this....there is only 1 AVN in the world....never to be repeated, you just cant "create relationships" with people those come over time....you can try to imitate but will never be the Original.....

Only one company owner that can pick up the phone and call the owner or of the biggest studio in the world ( fortune 500 company) to please take a meeting with Smashbucks ......only AVN...nobody else...sorry they can try but it will never ever be.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by MikeHawk

Only one company owner that can pick up the phone and call the owner or of the biggest studio in the world ( fortune 500 company) to please take a meeting with Smashbucks ......only AVN...nobody else...sorry they can try but it will never ever be.

getting the deals you have going and certainly the influence that AVN has played in helping that is great.. but that underscores my point.. there are a few internet players that will get the mashup with video side.... and those sites will be big sites given the exposure.. but where does that leave other internet websites? what about other video companies?

once the big video companies make their internet deals, then where will the medium level go? do?


Fight the pondering!

[Quick Buck]

traffic will always be king... you can produce a million of the best videos in the world, but if nobody is there to buy them you'll go broke

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

Will consumers be more narrowly focused to clips rather than want a full length DVD movie?

IMHO, the endless free clips being fed to surfers via MGPs have already "trained" them to whack off this way...

[DamageX]

The Internet is wide open.

[DIH]

xbiz is de shit.... I luv um

I was trying to remember to visit that site yesterday when it launched but forgot. Thanks for reminding me

[tony286]

I think video wont die for several reasons:
Its more fun jerkin off to porn on a tv
Burning your own dvd's, you would be amazed how little people actually know about their computers and how to use them. Also being on old computers or web tv.
Alot of older people who buy and rent porn dont even have computer connections.

[Mutt]

people keep repeating the same things - the video companies have been smartening up for a long time now and those relationships between video studios and internet companies have already been or a currently being forged - Hustler was with Webquest for years, now they have struck out on their own, the king of gonzo RLD just partnered with Webquest, Vivid is with Webquest, ZeroTolerance seems to be doing well on their own - there aren't very many quality studios who it matters what they do - a small handful. the rest are mom and pops or middle of the pack studios - their content is whored out by brokers like World Wide Content - content does matter - we still have millions of surfers who will join anything they are pushed to - hence why we still have the PPS programs with some pretty shitty content still making lots of money. BUT............ the Net is producing a
huge and growing class of surfer who are connoisseurs of porn - they know what they want and they are joining the quality exclusive content sites. Alot of studio content isn't web friendly - guys on the web don't want VIVID style porn - they want the hardcore gonzo and there are a handful of studios who produce it so well that they have become brand names. just having exclusive content isn't enough - lots of PPS tried to hop on the reality video bandwagon hiring others to produce it for them - unless you're lucky and get some great producer you're not going to get a good site - Bangbros and Nasty do it themselves - it's usually the only way to get what you want.

the cheap DVD licenses have given a second wind to PPS companies - it won't last. the porn connoisseur segment of the market is just going to keep growing - ask somebody with one of those types of sites what % of their sales come from non-affiliate sources - a ton.

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by tony404

Alot of older people who buy and rent porn dont even have computer connections.

I agree with you.. many are saying that DVD is dead.. replaced by VOD and digital video clips, but DVD sales are still strong.. and the demographics of buyers probably match to a percantage of your observation, along with those that just would rather watch on the TV and on the couch, vs. on the computer and swiveling chair.

tony.. for someone who shoots their own content, are you seeing that surfers are wanting more exclusive, new content? Does that retain them, or are they just as fickle as to paysites with licensed content, that no matter how much is there, they will just surf away to join another site?



Fight the P.A.D.D.! (porn A.D.D.)

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by Mutt

BUT............ the Net is producing a
huge and growing class of surfer who are connoisseurs of porn - they know what they want and they are joining the quality exclusive content sites.

you have brought up an interesting point.. are consumers really "connoisseurs of porn" or just have short attention spans and gravitate towards the CJ type content, the youtube content, etc?

Do they want short clips or enjoying a full length segment?

if the consumers are getting more sophisticated, then does that mean all the free porn hasn't really corrupted the market? That those with basically no money would surf and find the free, while those that that do spend money are being more selective?

has the bar to enter the biz been raised then from your observations about content?

traffic can certainly be picked up and bought easily (just may cost you), but as you said, shitty content on a website with alot of traffic can still make money.


Fight the naughty totty!

[seeric]

Lots of smart video companies with strong household names are hiring from the internet side instead of trying to do things on their own with video side mentality as well. In years past many video companies went at the web side of their ventures with people who worked entirely in the video side. The branching out and con-mingling is more intimate with the two sides of the industry now.

[MikeHawk]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

you have brought up an interesting point.. are consumers really "connoisseurs of porn" or just have short attention spans and gravitate towards the CJ type content, the youtube content, etc?

Do they want short clips or enjoying a full length segment?

if the consumers are getting more sophisticated, then does that mean all the free porn hasn't really corrupted the market? That those with basically no money would surf and find the free, while those that that do spend money are being more selective?

has the bar to enter the biz been raised then from your observations about content?

traffic can certainly be picked up and bought easily (just may cost you), but as you said, shitty content on a website with alot of traffic can still make money.


Fight the naughty totty!

I have to agree to disagree again....who knows what the surfer really wants?.....you are soooo right the You Tube/ My Space/Porno Tube systems have changed the surfer as we see it, on You Tubes networks I have personally 7 million views to short clips, surfer would send private messages in the thousands saying they wanted more and since you cant show it all, they wanted the rest...."send me the entire clip/Scene/movies etc".....what did that tell us? For me personally it means that this surfer prefers to "drive thru" Starbucks not walk in and sit down or what ever...lol

So I guess it means also that they don?t want to join the ?site? or bother with all that recurring billing?they see what they like and they want it NOW. That girl that guy or moment, if you really think about it makes perfect sense we spend all this time making galleries to sell our members sites, with girls and scenes, that are almost NEVER on the tour pages?so why would the surfer join if they liked that girl?.or clip they saw?

If you don?t think that DVD will go the same way as 8 track tape...you are fooling yourself......and it will be sooner than later...

Mutt is right deals have been being made by Internet companies, from the start 4 years ago Smashbucks saw the writing on the wall, and has gone out to make deals with not mom and pop companies, there are HUGE companies that have made millions in this video biz, one company alone we have just signed a joint venture deal with has over 14,000 titles....that is no mom and pop operation....lol Cant wait to fire out these announcements......

But it could be argued that "traffic is king" but also look at what is really going on with those traffic resources, look at the "new" systems within a year have taken over a huge chunk of the adult market share of traffic, those engines have to be looked at very carefully....they don?t seem to be going anywhere soon....

Well what ever it is, I have to say we are excited about the future of our biz and the growth and changing of the industry...

The smart ones will figure it out.....

As for AVN I will be making a huge post with announcements of all the studio deals they played a huge roll in, for a company like AVN to go out and help us like that is something we will never ever forget and will always support.

[seeric]

You can't say it enough.

Content is King

and


Traffic is Queen





and I'm the court jester!

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by MikeHawk

I have to agree to disagree again....

actually we are agreeing on all the points, just saying it in different ways... the market for content has been shaped by the surfers behaviour and the aggregation of traffic, and the observation is to see how other companies will react or adapt to this changing market.

Fight the we agree to agree!

[jay23]

Here is my take on all this

1. Free porn, you are going to get more and more. We gave a 90 second clip on a MGP in the hopes of getting a signup, but that is going to move into giving a 5 min or 10 min clip in the hope of getting a sign up.

2. Studios are moving into Web. In the past they gave their content to others to market, but now they want to run this end to end, watch for some big news from few big studios in the up comming months

3. A lot of mid level studios are hurting because of web. They will put their content on fire sale and get out.

4. Mainstream guys with Traffic is getting into this biz which is good in my view.

5. Traffic is still the king. Their is a saying "All dressed up and no where to go", you can have the best darn web site, but with out traffic you are nothing.

Jay

[jay23]

As for XBIZ and AVN, i love both of these companies. They have done a lot to me in terms of putting me on the map. I hope the competition in the Portal / Print / Trade Show area will do good to the industry.

Jay

[tony286]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

I agree with you.. many are saying that DVD is dead.. replaced by VOD and digital video clips, but DVD sales are still strong.. and the demographics of buyers probably match to a percantage of your observation, along with those that just would rather watch on the TV and on the couch, vs. on the computer and swiveling chair.

tony.. for someone who shoots their own content, are you seeing that surfers are wanting more exclusive, new content? Does that retain them, or are they just as fickle as to paysites with licensed content, that no matter how much is there, they will just surf away to join another site?



Fight the P.A.D.D.! (porn A.D.D.)

I find the exclusive stuff does better, a few times we bought content for filler and no one looked at it. We run a pretty strong retention on both of our sites.

[jay23]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

I agree with you.. many are saying that DVD is dead.. replaced by VOD and digital video clips, but DVD sales are still strong.. and the demographics of buyers probably match to a percantage of your observation, along with those that just would rather watch on the TV and on the couch, vs. on the computer and swiveling chair.

tony.. for someone who shoots their own content, are you seeing that surfers are wanting more exclusive, new content? Does that retain them, or are they just as fickle as to paysites with licensed content, that no matter how much is there, they will just surf away to join another site?



Fight the P.A.D.D.! (porn A.D.D.)

DVD is not dead and its going to be here for a long time to come, may be it morphs into HD DVD etc. Unitl AT&T wire every house with GigE fiber we will never see a on demand HD ....give or take 10 years in US

But one thing that is true is DVD sales are going down, talk to owners of large online DVD sales sites, every year for the past 5 years their sales have gone down.

Jay

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by jay23

Here is my take on all this

1. Free porn, you are going to get more and more. We gave a 90 second clip on a MGP in the hopes of getting a signup, but that is going to move into giving a 5 min or 10 min clip in the hope of getting a sign up.

is the need to push from 90 seconds to 5-10 minutes driven by what the other guy is doing, and/or surfers are essentially demanding that by selecting clips to view where they can see the length is longer than a few strokes?

kinda like how surfers using review sites to find which sites don't use DRM to determine which sites to join.

Originally Posted by jay23

3. A lot of mid level studios are hurting because of web. They will put their content on fire sale and get out.

would you say that is due to the higher production costs they have in making a "film" rather than alot of the internet guys who are creating "segments" and clips?

lower production costs.. allowing for lower margins to stay competitive in online?

Originally Posted by jay23

4. Mainstream guys with Traffic is getting into this biz which is good in my view.

yes, but that comes with a price. mainstream people having their own traffic could bring "new" surfers into different porn areas that they may not have visited, and they will get the commissions, while the same recycled adult traffic will be highly competitive amongst affiliates then.



Fight the circle jerk!

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by jay23

But one thing that is true is DVD sales are going down, talk to owners of large online DVD sales sites, every year for the past 5 years their sales have gone down.

i think that decline can be partly attributed to demographics that have ignored the internet, are now buying $500 computers with $14.95/month DSL (upgrading from dialup) and seeing how they can view porn now on the internet, versus having to buy at the store.

the convenience of purchasing porn from home then going to the store is certainly and identifiable plus.

alot of the population is still on dialup, and certainly, DVD is a very good medium of "broadband" viewing of content.. but that will certainly change as more people do connect via broadband.


Fight the trenchcoat and glasses!

[jay23]

[QUOTE=FightThisPatent]

would you say that is due to the higher production costs they have in making a "film" rather than alot of the internet guys who are creating "segments" and clips?

lower production costs.. allowing for lower margins to stay competitive in online?


QUOTE]

Mid level studios who produced porn at 20K budget are hurting because top level studios are spending more and at the same time internet guys are producing gonzo content for 3 - 5K. The whole sale cost of DVD is less then 10$ these days, the only way studios can demand more is with high budget movies / advertisments.

So any one in the middle is in a bad position


Jay

[FightThisPatent]

Originally Posted by jay23

Mid level studios who produced porn at 20K budget are hurting because top level studios are spending more and at the same time internet guys are producing gonzo content for 3 - 5K. The whole sale cost of DVD is less then 10$ these days, the only way studios can demand more is with high budget movies / advertisments.

So any one in the middle is in a bad position

very interesting observation.... definitely goes towards the video vs. internet pondering



Fight the bump!

[FightThisPatent]

I packed in a lot of ideas in my first post, so i'll carve out one small piece here to restate for comment:

surfers are being amused by 30 second clips on various sharing sites.

Can one mega paysite contain a surfer? or will feeding content to aggregating websites with micropayment or token-based systems be the way to go for the future?

Will the AVS model come back with a ring of micro-content websites that cater to the quick clip rather than to some full themed website?


Fight the inquisition!

[FightThisPatent]

Some bumpage info and staying on track with one of the thread topics of xfanz vs avn


Both have video spots on YouTube (xfanz posted their own, avn looks like surfers posted).. an excellent way of getting some viral traffic.

Xfanz: https://youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search
10 videos

avn: https://youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search
88 videos


xfanz postings are 2 days old and getting a some play. AVN content has been around for weeks to months, and most videos are in the 5 digit numbers for plays.


Fight the comparisons!

[Hotrocket]

Interesting topic for discussion!

Originally Posted by MikeHawk

I have to agree to disagree again....who knows what the surfer really wants?.....you are soooo right the You Tube/ My Space/Porno Tube systems have changed the surfer as we see it, on You Tubes networks I have personally 7 million views to short clips, surfer would send private messages in the thousands saying they wanted more and since you cant show it all, they wanted the rest...."send me the entire clip/Scene/movies etc".....what did that tell us? For me personally it means that this surfer prefers to "drive thru" Starbucks not walk in and sit down or what ever...lol

Not so much to disagree with your comments, but more so to give my take on this aspect...
It seems to me that what the surfer is saying to you through the PM communications is they want the whole thing!..the short clips are obviously creating the desire through the "tease" effect (as intended I'm sure), but I'm not really convinced that they aren't willing to invest the time (or money) to say watch or download the entire clip/scene/movie if it was available to them to do right there on You Tube or where ever.

I agree many want instant satisfaction, and I think that really it has quite alot to do with the You Tubes and others ability to deliver the product in a quick and easy to use manner.

Creating a delivery system that is similar and familiar to them, but gives you the ability to monetize your product in an affordable way, while retaining the traffic and creating satisfied return users is a trend I think is only going to grow.
I think the paysite model could soon be stripped down to fewer "bells and whistles" and solely focused on a more directory style presentation of large quantities of content with the addition of a You Tube or other similar style delivery system.

Seems that the torrent/p2p/you tube generation has already been acclimated to that "no frills" style of obtaining the content they desire.

[jayeff]

Originally Posted by FightThisPatent

traffic has been king for a long time, but i see a shift to content being king. There are portals and aggregrators for traffic (ie. youtube, etc) as well as search engines, porn directories, P2P, etc, etc... (some high trafficking affiliates could just become their own paysites by adding content).

Traffic will always be king on the 'net and - at least so long as PPS is dominant - content cannot even be titled queen. The comment you placed in brackets bears that out.

As to trends in video, so far they have less to do with what the surfer wants and more to do with competition and the limits of current technology. What you call old-school video got away with those dreadful plots and (generally) abysmal production and post-production standards, because that was what there was. No-one can imagine they ever reflected what their customers actually wanted (well okay maybe a few did enjoyed the sheer awfulness of those storylines).

Producing for the 'net did not initially mean higher production standards (although those followed), but it did mean catering for slow download times: at first very short clips which have now been relegated to the role of sales tools. That dictated the use of at most a scenario, and although with broadband the clips have got longer, on the whole, storylines are still missing.

If we try to go beyond observing what has happened, we get into the realms of guesswork and misdirection. First because as webmasters, generally with good connections, we often forget how many customers who still surf at low speeds. It is hardly surprising these people would rather have 45-minute (or whatever) movies broken down into segments, so the number of those choosing segments (when they are available) gets inflated. Does that mean it is an absolute choice, or one which will change if/when still faster connections become the norm? I don't think we have any way to know in advance of that actually happening.

An even more prevalent misdirection is to attempt to deduce much about customer behavior from surfer behavior as a whole. We often talk as if every surfer is a potential customer and while that is true in a theoretical sense, most people will not pay for porn (except perhaps once or twice out of curiosity) even if none were available for free (not only the many minors surfing for porn to whom we cannot or at least should not sell anyway). These surfers logically include a higher proportion of low-bandwith connectors than the typical membership of a video paysite, so their behavior is going to be influenced by that and simply by what is available to them. Perhaps they flit from clip to clip because mixed with the premium content is so much dross? Again I don't think you can usefully guess at how they might behave in other circumstances.

My feeling is that you are over-analyzing and from the wrong perspective. The big plus of the 'net from a marketing point of view is that every possible customer profile is accessible. Thus you can sell low-margin/high-volume, the reverse and everything in between.

What I believe will change (is changing, albeit very slowly) is that in the past we have been able to basically chuck any old content out there, get ourselves some traffic by whatever means, and make money. Because demand exceeded supply for much of the past ten years, we haven't really needed to think about the customer much at all except as a source of income. But a combination of crapping on our own doorstep and increasing competition is pushing up the cost of sales and that is going to force us to start tying business models more closely to customer profiles.

That won't result in a single business model, because ultimately online porn is like any other business sector. There will be a handful of sponsors with enough capital to go the low cost route, a larger minority will offer high-priced, speciality content and most will be average in every respect, aimed at the customer ready to pay a little more to get a little more.

To be successful, no matter what route a sponsor goes, he will have make a lot more effort than now to identify and cater for his customers, dropping the one-size-fits-all approach which currently dominates. But there will be several sets of goalposts and they will be moving constantly for the next 10-20 years at least. I don't think it is possible or even relevant to try to make more specific projections because the industry and the 'net itself will be changing so quickly on so many levels.