Online gaming shit = freedom of speech issue ????????? - GoFuckYourself.com

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 09:16 AM

I see this whole thing as a freedom of speech issue as much as anything - what about freedom how to spend your own $$$ - are there any legal previous standings on this?

seems to me that this falls into the same type of argument

fris · 10-02-2006, 09:17 AM

no such thing as freedom of speech anymore.

WarChild · 10-02-2006, 09:18 AM

Wow I'm surprised Party Poker hasn't rushed to hire you and your brilliant legal mind.

gangbangjoe · 10-02-2006, 09:18 AM

so what does this law forbid at all?

baddog · 10-02-2006, 09:20 AM

freedom of speech? WTF?

baddog · 10-02-2006, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

I see this whole thing as a freedom of speech issue as much as anything - what about freedom how to spend your own $$$ - are there any legal previous standings on this?

seems to me that this falls into the same type of argument

While that may be the most idiotic thing I have heard in days, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

the alchemist · 10-02-2006, 09:26 AM

What about freedom of losing all your money to an idiot's tax? Yeah, I see what you mean, but sometimes people are too dumb to figure it out by themselves, hence the code of laws.

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

While that may be the most idiotic thing I have heard in days, I will defend to the death your right to say it.

honestly you don't see it - but thats typical

baddog · 10-02-2006, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

honestly you don't see it - but thats typical

Using your theory I should be allowed to spend my money on heroin, hookers and hydrogen bombs.

Machete_ · 10-02-2006, 09:40 AM

Freedom of speech is being able to speak freely without censorship.

wtf does that have to do with online poker?

Lee · 10-02-2006, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Using your theory I should be allowed to spend my money on heroin, hookers and hydrogen bombs.

Hey lay off the hookers

Dirty Dane · 10-02-2006, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebus_dk

Freedom of speech is being able to speak freely without censorship.

wtf does that have to do with online poker?

I was wondering the same.
Need some arguments here

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

Using your theory I should be allowed to spend my money on heroin, hookers and hydrogen bombs.

still your an idiot
look at the law that they passed - its based on using your own hard earned money - not making gaming illegal

last time i checked
heroin = illegal
hookers = illegal
owning a hydrogen bomb = illegal

directfiesta · 10-02-2006, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fris

no such thing as freedom of speech anymore.

true... only freedom fries left....

WarChild · 10-02-2006, 09:47 AM

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Next you're going to claim Party Poker is your religion, right?

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebus_dk

Freedom of speech is being able to speak freely without censorship.

wtf does that have to do with online poker?

the gov is saying how you can spend your $$

Dirty Dane · 10-02-2006, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

the gov is saying how you can spend your $$

There's a difference between saying how you can spend it and how you can not spend it

Zebra · 10-02-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarChild

Wow I'm surprised Party Poker hasn't rushed to hire you and your brilliant legal mind.

PartyPoker lost around 62% of it's stock in the last 48 hours.. doubt they can afford much right now.

baddog · 10-02-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

still your an idiot
look at the law that they passed - its based on using your own hard earned money - not making gaming illegal

last time i checked
heroin = illegal
hookers = illegal
owning a hydrogen bomb = illegal

ummm, gambling is illegal in most states too

Machete_ · 10-02-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

the gov is saying how you can spend your $$

no - they just said you could not waste your money online. The goverment is put there by the people. Vote different people in and have remove the new law. So in fact its the people who have failed.. and now you have to suffer

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

ummm, gambling is illegal in most states too

ya - those illegal lotteries.. get a clue
http://www.thelotteryguide.com/lg/

scottybuzz · 10-02-2006, 09:58 AM

not really freedom of speech is it?

gambling is something physical

Say you were now going to complain to the government and take strike and stuff etc. If the government banned your right to complain, then you have a serious issue.

Goodday/

MegaPartnerJerry · 10-02-2006, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fris

no such thing as freedom of speech anymore.

baddog · 10-02-2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

ya - those illegal lotteries.. get a clue
http://www.thelotteryguide.com/lg/

You are the one without a clue if you think a state run lottery is the same as an unsanctioned poker game.

Theo Anthony · 10-02-2006, 10:02 AM

The way this matter has been dealt with by the U.S. senit is bullshit!

They spent two years investigating how to tax online gaming companies for a chunk of their hard earned cash, realised that they couldnt get shit from them as 99.9% of them are based in offshore countries like Gibraltar etc.. so they decided to cut off the one thing that the gaming companies cannot operate without... the credit card billers!

It will be illegal for a credit card processor to process a payment from any card holder in the U.S.A if they pass this law, therefore iliminating 80% of the gaming companies revenues( percentage depending on which company of course)

If they apply that same "quick lets bring in a new law cos we cant get no money out of these dudes" to the adult industry, what the fuck can we do to defend ourselves? FUCKING NOTHING!!

This is just like the prohibition of alcohol many years ago, what happened as a result of the prohibition? The operations went underground and power was handed straight into the hands of the organised criminals who made even more money then they were supposed to do!( im sure we as webmasters could make it work but thats besides the point!

)

Realisticlly, whats stopping the U.S. government form doing the exact same thing to us hardworking webmasters, and fucking with our billing companies? I mean its hard enough trying to make a few quid without Dubya Bush trying his hardest to take a chunk outa my arse!

Its always the same with that cunt, he always wants a piece of what he aint got shit to do with! (oil, oil, oil, tax, tax, tax etc.... i can go on for as long as you like)

Thats my rant for the day, sorry if i have offended any U.S patriots.

The President is about as much of a cunt as the Prime Minister of England! Two Prime CUNTS if i ever saw any!!

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 10:09 AM

also - one more thing - if you think this whole thing helps you - your dead wrong

this situation WILL affect the stability of a certain company that many of you use - Epassporte - dont think so, just watch...

Fuckin Bill · 10-02-2006, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baddog

ummm, gambling is illegal in most states too

I don't know the exact number off-hand, but it's something like 48 of the 50 states that allow some kind of gambling now....and I'm not talking about lotteries.

Almost every state in the US has some type of casinos, be they floating, indian, or whatever.

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

I don't know the exact number off-hand, but it's something like 48 of the 50 states that allow some kind of gambling now....and I'm not talking about lotteries.

Almost every state in the US has some type of casinos, be they floating, indian, or whatever.

exactly he's a clueless idiot

After Shock Media · 10-02-2006, 10:13 AM

It is not a freedom of speech issue, however it is addressed in the same passage. You do have the right to have the Government redress your and others grievances about this law.

It also is a state issue and not a federal one. Gambling is not federally illegal, and they can not pick and choose one form over another and thus turning a blind eye to it in one are and prohibiting it in another. Then again fuck I could be very wrong.

stickyfingerz · 10-02-2006, 10:13 AM

Freedom of speech?

baddog · 10-02-2006, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

I don't know the exact number off-hand, but it's something like 48 of the 50 states that allow some kind of gambling now....and I'm not talking about lotteries.

Almost every state in the US has some type of casinos, be they floating, indian, or whatever.

Indian land is off limits to many state and federal laws

Theo Anthony · 10-02-2006, 10:20 AM

Bush cannot stop all gambling in the U.S as he gets a hefty tax from allot of the casinos and lotteries etc....so doing so would hurt his country!

The majority of the poker money spent in the USA goes out to other countries, i think that is what has pissed off Bush as he cant regulate and tax as he would everything else and he would rather his country not spend money outside of its borders!

However, if he brings in a law to prohibit the payment methods for online gaming, then he dosnt have to prohibit the gambling itself, and he can keep whatever taxes he is earning from gambling, and use it to buy tanks, planes and bombs so he can rob other countries of their land and oil reserves!

haha! the cunt

thats my opinion i guess but it dosnt mean that i am right! lol

baddog · 10-02-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Anthony

Bush cannot stop all gambling in the U.S as he gets a hefty tax from allot of the casinos and lotteries etc....so doing so would hurt his country!

The majority of the poker money spent in the USA goes out to other countries, i think that is what has pissed off Bush as he cant regulate and tax as he would everything else and he would rather his country not spend money outside of its borders!

However, if he brings in a law to prohibit the payment methods for online gaming, then he dosnt have to prohibit the gambling itself, and he can keep whatever taxes he is earning from gambling, and use it to buy tanks, planes and bombs so he can rob other countries of their land and oil reserves!

haha! the cunt

thats my opinion i guess but it dosnt mean that i am right! lol

Maybe I missed something in the news . . . what does Bush have to do with this? When did he start writing laws?

Theo Anthony · 10-02-2006, 10:27 AM

Read up on it and you will see.

He is the one who was investigating how to regulate and tax the online gaming industry and he is the one who has the final say in what becomes law or not. ( i may be wrong, but i have been reading articles dated back from 2004 today online and this is the impression i get dude)

I read today that the US government are looking into helping the big nevada casino's go into online gaming!! (MGM and the rest of them)

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Anthony

I read today that the US government are looking into helping the big nevada casino's go into online gaming!! (MGM and the rest of them)

article link please

Pleasurepays · 10-02-2006, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daruma

I see this whole thing as a freedom of speech issue as much as anything - what about freedom how to spend your own $$$ - are there any legal previous standings on this?

seems to me that this falls into the same type of argument

what does speech have to do with gambling?
what does spending money have to do with speech?

do you people wake up and try to be stupid according to some, masochistic, self hating plan?

Barefootsies · 10-02-2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarChild

Wow I'm surprised Party Poker hasn't rushed to hire you and your brilliant legal mind.

WarChild · 10-02-2006, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theo Anthony

Read up on it and you will see.

... he is the one who has the final say in what becomes law or not. ( i may be wrong, but i have been reading articles dated back from 2004 today online and this is the impression i get dude)

Ummm, I'm pretty sure bills became law in the same manner 2 years ago that they do today.

Here you go http://www.vote-smart.org/resource_govt101_02.php . Knowing is half the battle!

After Shock Media · 10-02-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pleasurepays

what does speech have to do with gambling?
what does spending money have to do with speech?

do you people wake up and try to be stupid according to some, masochistic, self hating plan?

I do see where he is going with this though.

See most campaign contribution crap and other shit related to it, have indeed used such an argument.

Theo Anthony · 10-02-2006, 10:49 AM

w wwdot topix dot net/search/?q=partygaming

Its one of the links on this webpage, i cant remember which one but if you have a look through you will get some interesting points.

Daruma · 10-02-2006, 10:51 AM

if the gov told you that you could not buy porn with your $ would you care?
if the gov told you that you could not buy a beer with your $ would you care?
if the gov told you that you could not travel to some place with your $ would you care?

seems that a lot of you dont see the difference - some of you do...
wait till this situation now starts affecting your business - it will someday - maybe sooner than you think

directfiesta · 10-02-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

On July 11 2006 the Internet Gambling Prohibition and Enforcement Act, H.R. 4411 was approved by the House of Representatives today by 317 to 93 votes. To pass into law it will now need to be approved by the Senate and the President. The bill will make it illegal to use credit cards and fund transfers from banks to settle internet wagers and, it will update the Wire Act to specifically prohibit online gambling, allowing the authorities to work with Internet service providers to block access to online gambling web sites.

http://www.bettingmarket.com/dojwar50021.htm

on the other hand:

Quote:

Nevada was the first state to legalize casino gambling. I guess its only fitting that they become the first state to legalize online gambling as well.

On Monday June 4, 2001 the Nevada legislature passed a bill establishing a legal structure for companies that want to provide Internet gambling. Under the provisions of the bill a company would be required to put down a $500,000 licensing fee and a yearly $250,000 renewal fee in order to offer legal Internet gambling services.

http://casinogambling.about.com/libr...y/aa061101.htm

So, do I understand right that if those " foreign * trash * " sites elect to work under the Nevada law, then everything is okee-dokee ...???

1215 · 10-02-2006, 10:54 AM

why doesnt bush just open a huge poker site and take over the net?

or, he could at least let people gamble, but make sure people report earnings in their taxes, so the country still benefits.

usa has a debt, why not permit gambling and place a low tax on it so 1)people still have their freedom to lose money, and 2)we use the funding for something useful rather than not making it at all.

bl4h · 10-02-2006, 10:58 AM

Ah now that the laws are being passed you decide to speak up. SHould have been out there campaigning against it

BlackCrayon · 10-02-2006, 11:00 AM

i wouldn't say its freedom of speech but it does take away from our personal freedoms. its not a law created to protect the people though. its a law created to get rid of an industry that has a lot of american money sent to non tax paying non american busineses.

After Shock Media · 10-02-2006, 11:05 AM

Regardless though, we should never try to police morals. To some gambling is a sin and immoral. Why they think these laws ever turn out good is beyond me.

After Shock Media · 10-02-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackCrayon

i wouldn't say its freedom of speech but it does take away from our personal freedoms. its not a law created to protect the people though. its a law created to get rid of an industry that has a lot of american money sent to non tax paying non american busineses.

Sure it is a law to protect the people. Everyone loves laws that protect people from themselves. Just now some are bitching of course because well this self protection law affects them this time.

bl4h · 10-02-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by After Shock Media

Regardless though, we should never try to police morals. To some gambling is a sin and immoral. Why they think these laws ever turn out good is beyond me.

Thank god your opinion will never mean anything

Lazonby · 10-02-2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fris

no such thing as freedom of speech anymore.

Shhhh. You're not allowed to say that.

After Shock Media · 10-02-2006, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bl4h

Thank god your opinion will never mean anything

And what the fuck climbed up your ass?

If you desire to explain why what I said is wrong then do so.

10-02-2006, 09:16 AM	#1
Daruma Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: PandaLand™ Posts: 3,494	Online gaming shit = freedom of speech issue ????????? I see this whole thing as a freedom of speech issue as much as anything - what about freedom how to spend your own $$$ - are there any legal previous standings on this? seems to me that this falls into the same type of argument __________________ RIP TD

10-02-2006, 09:17 AM	#2
fris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 55,372	no such thing as freedom of speech anymore. __________________ Since 1999: 69 Adult Industry awards for Best Hosting Company and professional excellence. WP Stuff

10-02-2006, 09:18 AM	#3
WarChild Let slip the dogs of war. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bermuda Posts: 17,263	Wow I'm surprised Party Poker hasn't rushed to hire you and your brilliant legal mind. __________________ .

10-02-2006, 09:18 AM	#4
gangbangjoe Ronin Join Date: May 2004 Location: Live by the code Die by the code Posts: 17,693	so what does this law forbid at all? __________________ NichePay - $30 on all trials - Killer Ratios .................................................. Female Ejaculation - Hairy - Shemale Puffy Nipples - Huge Clits - And More! ..................................................

10-02-2006, 09:26 AM	#7
the alchemist Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 3,271	What about freedom of losing all your money to an idiot's tax? Yeah, I see what you mean, but sometimes people are too dumb to figure it out by themselves, hence the code of laws. __________________ 264 349 400

10-02-2006, 09:20 AM	#5
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	freedom of speech? WTF?

10-02-2006, 09:40 AM	#10
Machete_ WINNING! Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 14,579	Freedom of speech is being able to speak freely without censorship. wtf does that have to do with online poker?

10-02-2006, 09:47 AM	#15
WarChild Let slip the dogs of war. Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bermuda Posts: 17,263	Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. Next you're going to claim Party Poker is your religion, right? __________________ .

10-02-2006, 09:58 AM	#22
scottybuzz Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2006 Location: NY Posts: 14,800	not really freedom of speech is it? gambling is something physical Say you were now going to complain to the government and take strike and stuff etc. If the government banned your right to complain, then you have a serious issue. Goodday/ __________________ $$$$$ MAKE HUGE MONEY IN CAMS - CLICK HERE $$$$$

10-02-2006, 10:02 AM	#25
Theo Anthony Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London England Posts: 134	This is what you call prohibition! The way this matter has been dealt with by the U.S. senit is bullshit! They spent two years investigating how to tax online gaming companies for a chunk of their hard earned cash, realised that they couldnt get shit from them as 99.9% of them are based in offshore countries like Gibraltar etc.. so they decided to cut off the one thing that the gaming companies cannot operate without... the credit card billers! It will be illegal for a credit card processor to process a payment from any card holder in the U.S.A if they pass this law, therefore iliminating 80% of the gaming companies revenues( percentage depending on which company of course) If they apply that same "quick lets bring in a new law cos we cant get no money out of these dudes" to the adult industry, what the fuck can we do to defend ourselves? FUCKING NOTHING!! This is just like the prohibition of alcohol many years ago, what happened as a result of the prohibition? The operations went underground and power was handed straight into the hands of the organised criminals who made even more money then they were supposed to do!( im sure we as webmasters could make it work but thats besides the point! ) Realisticlly, whats stopping the U.S. government form doing the exact same thing to us hardworking webmasters, and fucking with our billing companies? I mean its hard enough trying to make a few quid without Dubya Bush trying his hardest to take a chunk outa my arse! Its always the same with that cunt, he always wants a piece of what he aint got shit to do with! (oil, oil, oil, tax, tax, tax etc.... i can go on for as long as you like) Thats my rant for the day, sorry if i have offended any U.S patriots. The President is about as much of a cunt as the Prime Minister of England! Two Prime CUNTS if i ever saw any!! __________________ "If you could do it too, then you would but you cant so bite me!" i do this shit standin on my head! ICQ: 3 4 4 9 4 2 3 5 7

10-02-2006, 10:09 AM	#26
Daruma Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: PandaLand™ Posts: 3,494	also - one more thing - if you think this whole thing helps you - your dead wrong this situation WILL affect the stability of a certain company that many of you use - Epassporte - dont think so, just watch... __________________ RIP TD

10-02-2006, 10:13 AM	#29
After Shock Media It's coming look busy Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn". Posts: 35,299	It is not a freedom of speech issue, however it is addressed in the same passage. You do have the right to have the Government redress your and others grievances about this law. It also is a state issue and not a federal one. Gambling is not federally illegal, and they can not pick and choose one form over another and thus turning a blind eye to it in one are and prohibiting it in another. Then again fuck I could be very wrong. __________________ [email protected] ICQ:135982156 AIM: Aftershockmed1a MSN: [email protected]

10-02-2006, 10:13 AM	#30
stickyfingerz Doin fine Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 24,984	Freedom of speech?

10-02-2006, 10:20 AM	#32
Theo Anthony Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London England Posts: 134	Bush cannot stop all gambling in the U.S as he gets a hefty tax from allot of the casinos and lotteries etc....so doing so would hurt his country! The majority of the poker money spent in the USA goes out to other countries, i think that is what has pissed off Bush as he cant regulate and tax as he would everything else and he would rather his country not spend money outside of its borders! However, if he brings in a law to prohibit the payment methods for online gaming, then he dosnt have to prohibit the gambling itself, and he can keep whatever taxes he is earning from gambling, and use it to buy tanks, planes and bombs so he can rob other countries of their land and oil reserves! haha! the cunt thats my opinion i guess but it dosnt mean that i am right! lol __________________ "If you could do it too, then you would but you cant so bite me!" i do this shit standin on my head! ICQ: 3 4 4 9 4 2 3 5 7

10-02-2006, 10:27 AM	#34
Theo Anthony Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London England Posts: 134	Read up on it and you will see. He is the one who was investigating how to regulate and tax the online gaming industry and he is the one who has the final say in what becomes law or not. ( i may be wrong, but i have been reading articles dated back from 2004 today online and this is the impression i get dude) I read today that the US government are looking into helping the big nevada casino's go into online gaming!! (MGM and the rest of them) __________________ "If you could do it too, then you would but you cant so bite me!" i do this shit standin on my head! ICQ: 3 4 4 9 4 2 3 5 7

10-02-2006, 10:49 AM	#40
Theo Anthony Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: London England Posts: 134	w wwdot topix dot net/search/?q=partygaming Its one of the links on this webpage, i cant remember which one but if you have a look through you will get some interesting points. __________________ "If you could do it too, then you would but you cant so bite me!" i do this shit standin on my head! ICQ: 3 4 4 9 4 2 3 5 7

10-02-2006, 10:51 AM	#41
Daruma Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: PandaLand™ Posts: 3,494	if the gov told you that you could not buy porn with your $ would you care? if the gov told you that you could not buy a beer with your $ would you care? if the gov told you that you could not travel to some place with your $ would you care? seems that a lot of you dont see the difference - some of you do... wait till this situation now starts affecting your business - it will someday - maybe sooner than you think __________________ RIP TD

10-02-2006, 10:54 AM	#43
1215 Boner Party Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 2,376	why doesnt bush just open a huge poker site and take over the net? or, he could at least let people gamble, but make sure people report earnings in their taxes, so the country still benefits. usa has a debt, why not permit gambling and place a low tax on it so 1)people still have their freedom to lose money, and 2)we use the funding for something useful rather than not making it at all. __________________ Best Hosting

10-02-2006, 10:58 AM	#44
bl4h Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 1,282	Ah now that the laws are being passed you decide to speak up. SHould have been out there campaigning against it

10-02-2006, 11:00 AM	#45
BlackCrayon Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Ottawa Posts: 19,631	i wouldn't say its freedom of speech but it does take away from our personal freedoms. its not a law created to protect the people though. its a law created to get rid of an industry that has a lot of american money sent to non tax paying non american busineses. __________________ you don't know you're wearing a leash if you sit by the peg all day..

10-02-2006, 11:05 AM	#46
After Shock Media It's coming look busy Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn". Posts: 35,299	Regardless though, we should never try to police morals. To some gambling is a sin and immoral. Why they think these laws ever turn out good is beyond me. __________________ [email protected] ICQ:135982156 AIM: Aftershockmed1a MSN: [email protected]