Patriotism: Clinton, Olberman, and Nakedness

[Halcyon]

**allow me to spew for a moment**


Recently I have been thinking about America.

At Burning Man, I saw a group of naked people stop hoola hooping on the top of an RV to sing the Star Spangled Banner as the sun set. I first smiled, then was overcome with pride. America allows the freedom I enjoy so much. Even if the people in power may wish I didn?t exist, America is built to make room for me.

Since then I?ve had some great conversations with my father. He is a judge. He is, quite literally, ?The Man.? He is also a brilliant thinker and very liberal in his politics. He believes in his heart that the US judical and political system is the best in the world. He agrees it is MASSIVELY flawed, but has pride in how good it is.

The more I read and the more I think, the more I agree.
There has always been corruption. There has always been evil men. There has always been treachery and deceit by rulers. The truth is that any organization gets corrupt as it gets large. And little is as large as the US bureaucracy.

But the US system is built with full knowledge that people can be bad. So it has checks and balances to try to minimize the damage that those people can do.

Yes, our system is flawed. Yes it has outrageous amounts of corruption. Yes it currently is a source of much shame.

But it is also a source of immense pride.

Which puts me in the strange place of being simultaneously ashamed and proud.

The recent Clinton interview on FOX and Keith Olberman?s defense of it made me feel that shame/pride stirring like I haven?t in a while.

This IS a great country. And I am PROUD to be an American.

J o h n Halcyon S t y n, Artist & Patriot



Links: if you haven't watched these, you should...especially Olberman's

Clinton's FUCK YOU to FOX:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...mann+cl inton

Olberman's FUCK YOU to Bush:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ermann+clinton

[stickyfingerz]

Love you Hal, but for Olbermann to call Chris Wallace a monkey pretending to be a newsman is just bullshit. Chris Wallace is Mike Wallaces son. He has journalism in his blood, and his dad is quite left leaning. Chris Wallace is very fair, and only asked Clinton a simple question. It was Clinton that went off about it. Chris even tried to get the interview back onto the subject of Clintons foundation. Olbermann is a blatantly bias.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Love you Hal, but for Olbermann to call Chris Wallace a monkey pretending to be a newsman is just bullshit. Chris Wallace is Mike Wallaces son. He has journalism in his blood, and his dad is quite left leaning. Chris Wallace is very fair, and only asked Clinton a simple question. It was Clinton that went off about it. Chris even tried to get the interview back onto the subject of Clintons foundation. Olbermann is a blatantly bias.

your fucking kidding me right ,it was the first question he asked clinton and that wasnt the reason he was there. This is good because finally its putting a fire under the democrats.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

your fucking kidding me right ,it was the first question he asked clinton and that wasnt the reason he was there. This is good because finally its putting a fire under the democrats.

No it wasnt. Sorry The interview you saw was probably this

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...=chris+wallace

at 10 mins. The full interview was 22 mins. Please try again. That was midway through the interview.

[stickyfingerz]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...hris+wallac e

Here is most of the interview starting from the begining. Nice you are sucked in by the propaganda machine.

[spunkmaster]

Olbermann's show is the lowest rated on MSNBC and gets 150,000 or so viewers and Chris Wallace gets 3 million on Sundays !

Nuff said !

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Love you Hal, but for Olbermann to call Chris Wallace a monkey pretending to be a newsman is just bullshit. Chris Wallace is Mike Wallaces son. He has journalism in his blood, and his dad is quite left leaning. Chris Wallace is very fair, and only asked Clinton a simple question. It was Clinton that went off about it. Chris even tried to get the interview back onto the subject of Clintons foundation. Olbermann is a blatantly bias.

I don't think it was a simple question.
But, quite franky, I don't care who or what made him go off.
It was nice to see some passion. Obviously I'm biased, but it shook me from the hopelessness I feel amidst the Enron/Haliburton era.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

Olbermann's show is the lowest rated on MSNBC and gets 150,000 or so viewers and Chris Wallace gets 3 million on Sundays !

Nuff said !

Chris Wallace is actually a bit to the left. His dad is for sure.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I don't think it was a simple question.
But, quite franky, I don't care who or what made him go off.
It was nice to see some passion. Obviously I'm biased, but it shook me from the hopelessness I feel amidst the Enron/Haliburton era.

Just depends on your perspective, and the info you believe.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

Olbermann's show is the lowest rated on MSNBC and gets 150,000 or so viewers and Chris Wallace gets 3 million on Sundays !

Nuff said !

Really? That is 'nuff?

All that shows me is that as a nation, we are very susceptible to our leaders? manufacturing of consent.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Just depends on your perspective, and the info you believe.

We can agree on that. Go USA!

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

We can agree on that. Go USA!

I cant argue with you Hal hehe.

[tony286]

yeah chris wallace is too the left god your such a sheep lol
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topic...=chris+wallace
if they come knocking on your door ,do you get to say Im with W and they give you a pass. lol

[E$_manager]

I am proud of my country too.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

yeah chris wallace is too the left god your such a sheep lol
http://mediamatters.org/issues_topic...=chris+wallace
if they come knocking on your door ,do you get to say Im with W and they give you a pass. lol

Yes media matters weeee. Do you admit you were wrong about it being the first question yet?

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Yes media matters weeee. Do you admit you were wrong about it being the first question yet?

Yes I do my mistake but they dont ask bush and his crew those questions? I have been watching fox the past few nights and its been a clinton hachet job. Clinton had the balls to say I tired and I failed more then I can say for your stay the course retard. lol Also whats wrong with media matters they are showing actual clips and articles not sound bytes.

[DTK]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Really? That is 'nuff?

All that shows me is that as a nation, we are very susceptible to our leaders? manufacturing of consent.

Abso fuckin lutely

[spunkmaster]

Originally Posted by tony404

Yes I do my mistake but they dont ask bush and his crew those questions? I have been watching fox the past few nights and its been a clinton hachet job. Clinton had the balls to say I tired and I failed more then I can say for your stay the course retard. lol Also whats wrong with media matters they are showing actual clips and articles not sound bytes.

You've had ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN licking clinton's balls for 14 years and you're mad a one network because they don' lick Clinton's balls !

FYI Clinton didn't tey to do shit and he had 10 chances to take out Osama Bin Fuck Wad. He's even on tape admitting this right after 9/11 !

[tony286]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

You've had ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC and CNN licking clinton's balls for 14 years and you're mad a one network because they don' lick Clinton's balls !

FYI Clinton didn't tey to do shit and he had 10 chances to take out Osama Bin Fuck Wad. He's even on tape admitting this right after 9/11 !

your fucking kidding me right , how about Osama to attack america with airplanes???? They did nothing. This happened during w's watch and bin laden is still fucking free.

[tony286]

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/m...dTerrorism.htm

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

your fucking kidding me right , how about Osama to attack america with airplanes???? They did nothing. This happened during w's watch and bin laden is still fucking free.

Wow your deep in it. lol Will you answer something honestly? And be honest.

Do you goto democraticunderground.com and post or read?

Go buy the movie Targeted Binladen from the history channel. http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73157

You think the history channel is a right wing propoganda machine?

He had at least 3 opportunites to get Clinton.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Wow your deep in it. lol Will you answer something honestly? And be honest.

Do you goto democraticunderground.com and post or read?

Go buy the movie Targeted Binladen from the history channel. http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=73157

You think the history channel is a right wing propoganda machine?

He had at least 3 opportunites to get Clinton.

HOW COME W HASNT GOTTEN BIN LADEN HE KILLED 3000 OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS.THAT DOESNT PISS YOU OFF???????

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

http://www.makethemaccountable.com/m...dTerrorism.htm

Doing something, and making it appear that you are doing something. Thats the defining point here.


Btw your little makethemaccountable site uses links like infowars.com to back up their arguments. PPPAAAAHHHLEASE!!! lol

lol after looking that link is dead too. rofl. Next to last link on the bottom.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

HOW COME W HASNT GOTTEN BIN LADEN HE KILLED 3000 OF YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS.THAT DOESNT PISS YOU OFF???????

Oh didnt you hear? It wasnt Bin Laden it was a rouge arm of the goverment using shadow warriors.....

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Doing something, and making it appear that you are doing something. Thats the defining point here.


Btw your little makethemaccountable site uses links like infowars.com to back up their arguments. PPPAAAAHHHLEASE!!! lol

lol after looking that link is dead too. rofl. Next to last link on the bottom.

WHY HASNT W GOT BIN LADEN,ITS BEEN FIVE FUCKIN YEARS. ARE YOU THAT BRAIN WASHED YOU DONT CARE?

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

WHY HASNT W GOT BIN LADEN,ITS BEEN FIVE FUCKIN YEARS. ARE YOU THAT BRAIN WASHED YOU DONT CARE?

Do you care he has wiped out just about every other high ranking al queda member?

Btw the caps lock is above the shift key on most conventional keyboards. Dont pop a vein in your forehead hehe.

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

Do you care he has wiped out just about every other high ranking al queda member?

Btw the caps lock is above the shift key on most conventional keyboards. Dont pop a vein in your forehead hehe.

Bin laden dead or alive thats what your guy said and its 5 yrs he is still free mocking us. Its so sad your ok with a guy who killed 3000 americans running free.

[stickyfingerz]

Originally Posted by tony404

Bin laden dead or alive thats what your guy said and its 5 yrs he is still free mocking us. Its so sad your ok with a guy who killed 3000 americans running free.

I missed when I said I was ok with it. I just have paitence. All things in time. All things in time.

[davidd]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I don't think it was a simple question.
But, quite franky, I don't care who or what made him go off.
It was nice to see some passion. Obviously I'm biased, but it shook me from the hopelessness I feel amidst the Enron/Haliburton era.

If Dick Cheney did the same thing to Dan Rather... Who would you have sided with?

I think people find it too easy to pick on Fox News.

Before Fox news there was no other side... I remember being a child watching news and saying "This is just not the whole story". Yes, I have been watching the nightly news everynight since the Iran Hostage situation.

So now we have both sides of the political bias spectrum. If you can watch CNN and laugh AND watch Fox news and laugh then you are truly seeing the woods thru the forest. If you watch either one and say, "Yeah, you're right!!!"... You are truly fucked.

[davidd]

Originally Posted by tony404

Bin laden dead or alive thats what your guy said and its 5 yrs he is still free mocking us. Its so sad your ok with a guy who killed 3000 americans running free.

Who?? Bin Laden or the Politicians in D.C.??

Both have killed 3000 US citizens at this point.

[spunkmaster]

Originally Posted by tony404

your fucking kidding me right , how about Osama to attack america with airplanes???? They did nothing. This happened during w's watch and bin laden is still fucking free.

Clinton asserted, ?There is not a living soul in the world who ? was paying any attention to it or even knew terrorists associated with al Qaeda was a growing concern in October of ?93.? Clinton seems to have forgotten that al Qaeda was identified as the group behind the February 1993 attack on the World Trade Center that killed six while injuring over a thousand. Later, Clinton?s national-security adviser Anthony Lake was quoted as saying that it was after this attack that he first heard the name Osama bin Laden. He said he then briefed Clinton about bin Laden. Rep. Bill McCollum (R., Fla), chairman of the House Taskforce on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare wrote several letters to Clinton, beginning in 1993, warning him about bin Laden. Apparently, both these gentlemen are zombies, bereft of living souls.

In 1993, Clinton downplayed the WTC bombing, treating it as a law-enforcement issue and not an act of war. He was so intent on minimizing what might be seen as a failure that, when he visited New York City shortly after the attack, he didn?t even bother to stop by the blast site. If no one was ?paying any attention? to al Qaeda, Clinton was doing the opposite of alerting them.

In the interview, Clinton used rhetorical devices he has often employed. These included:
1. The declaration that he had tried to do something while others hadn?t and that he?d been ridiculed for trying;
2. The claim that he had a ?plan,? here to destroy bin Laden and al Qaeda that would have worked perfectly if others had only been wise enough to do what he told them to do;
3. The invocation of how hard he had worked on the problem and how this was more than anyone else did or is now doing;
4. The announcement that he wasn?t going to criticize Bush followed by a savage criticism;
5. Shifting the blame to others, here the ?entire military,? the CIA, and the FBI, for not giving him the go ahead to get bin Laden;
6. Playing fast with numbers, such as claiming Bush had ?three times as much time to deal with it [bin Laden and al Qaeda]?;
7. And the flat statement that if he were still president (serving his fourth term?), he would be doing so much better than Bush.

These are all rather tiresome, simple-minded devices that, if employed by any other politician not so favored by the media, would provoke parodies. Are we to feel sorry for him because he worked hard but ineffectually and with horrific consequences? Wasn?t he the boss of the entire military, the CIA, and the FBI? Weren?t they supposed to jump when he yelled ?Frog?? How does eight months become three times greater than eight years? And what was that ?comprehensive anti-terror strategy? he left behind in the White House? Can we see a copy? Probably not. Clinton?s own national-security adviser Sandy Berger told the 9/11 Commission ?there was no war plan that we turned over to the Bush administration during the transition. And the reports of that are just incorrect.? Lest, this be thought the product of a mistaken Berger, Richard Clarke, the man Clinton invoked over and over as an authority, said the same thing to reporters in 2002: ?There was no plan on al Qaeda that was passed from the Clinton administration to the Bush administration.?


http://article.nationalreview.com/?q...ViNWU0MDBhNTE=

[tony286]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

I missed when I said I was ok with it. I just have paitence. All things in time. All things in time.

5 yrs are you fucking kidding me lol

[Matt 26z]

Can any Republican here tell me what Bush did to curb terror prior to 9/11?

[davidd]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

Can any Republican here tell me what Bush did to curb terror prior to 9/11?

<Not defending Bush>
I forgot, how long was he in office before the attack?
</not defending Bush>

[pocketkangaroo]

I saw the interview and thought Clinton was out of line. I like Clinton too, he did well for the country and a lot of people made a lot of money while he was in office. I don't think the question was out of line and he would have gotten his point across much better had he sit back and explained his side. Then again, I'm for asking our politicians tough questions and not letting them get the free ride they currently get.

As for Chris Wallace, I really don't think he is a partisian. Yes, he works for a right wing "news" network, but his experience in the industry has suggested that he is fair. I think him being soft on Republicans and tougher on Democrats are the barking orders from the top and not so much his doing. You more or less do what the guys who pay your bills tell you to do.

As for Olberman, his response was too much. I like Olberman a lot and he's one of the more intelligent TV personalities out there. But he's gotten too dramatic and over the top in what I'm guessing is a ploy for ratings. If he continues this path, he may get more ratings, but he'll turn into a clown like O'Reilly. It's unfortunate that being intelligent doesn't get ratings in our society.

Overall, the story is just overdone. I personally could give a shit what an ex-President says during an interview. I'm more worried with the situations our World is dealing with today. Both Clinton and Bush fucked up with Bin Laden, plain and simple.

[pocketkangaroo]

Originally Posted by spunkmaster

FYI Clinton didn't tey to do shit and he had 10 chances to take out Osama Bin Fuck Wad. He's even on tape admitting this right after 9/11 !

The funniest part about this is that Republicans like yourself were bitching at Clinton when he did attack terrorists overseas. You called him out for "wagging the dog". It's funny how those "tough on terror" Republicans have such a short term memory, eh?

[Odin]

This thread reminds me of this quote from Pope Benedict XVI.

"The West is laudably trying to open itself, full of understanding, to external values, but it no longer loves itself; in its own history, it now sees only what is deplorable and destructive, while it is no longer able to perceive what is great and pure."

Western nations have alot to be proud of, and they have become the model for the direction in which this world should be moving. It is a shame that so many people are taught to feel guilty, ashamed, and often unjustly critical of their own nations and civilisation.

[pocketkangaroo]

Originally Posted by stickyfingerz

I missed when I said I was ok with it. I just have paitence. All things in time. All things in time.

Considering the CIA says the trail is cold and the US has pulled off almost every resource that was going after Bin Laden, I'd say that you're going to need a lot of patience. Republicans are so tough on terror.

[Matt 26z]

Originally Posted by davidd

<Not defending Bush>
I forgot, how long was he in office before the attack?
</not defending Bush>

It was 8 months. Considering that Richard Clarke & Co. remained on duty, it's not like they were starting from scratch. Clinton was working on terrorism in his final years, but Bush showed zero interest prior to 9/11.

Also, I've seen a lot of conservatives slam Clinton for not retaliating for the Cole bombing. The fact is that the FBI investigation didn't end until Bush's first week in office three months later. Everyone knew that bin-Laden did it, but it took time to pin him down with verifiable evidence. It was then Bush's job to take action, and he didn't.

[davidd]

Originally Posted by Matt 26z

It was 8 months. Considering that Richard Clarke & Co. remained on duty, it's not like they were starting from scratch. Clinton was working on terrorism in his final years, but Bush showed zero interest prior to 9/11.

Also, I've seen a lot of conservatives slam Clinton for not retaliating for the Cole bombing. The fact is that the FBI investigation didn't end until Bush's first week in office three months later. Everyone knew that bin-Laden did it, but it took time to pin him down with verifiable evidence. It was then Bush's job to take action, and he didn't.

You need to read my post about "seeing the woods thru the forest"

Do you feel that this all started with the attack on 9/11 or even the Cole? This started under Jimmy Carter and went through every president since. Iran Hostages, Beirut Bombing, etc etc etc -> Sept 11th

There will be finger pointing between both parties. Why? Because if they point the blame at each other then the American public will not say, "Hey, what is the point in keeping you people in office when you ignore shit for decades?".

The real talking point is that we have a centralized government that does not serve the people of this country.

I do not need mommy, do you?

[davidd]

Originally Posted by Chief

This thread reminds me of this quote from Pope Benedict XVI.

"The West is laudably trying to open itself, full of understanding, to external values, but it no longer loves itself; in its own history, it now sees only what is deplorable and destructive, while it is no longer able to perceive what is great and pure."

Western nations have alot to be proud of, and they have become the model for the direction in which this world should be moving. It is a shame that so many people are taught to feel guilty, ashamed, and often unjustly critical of their own nations and civilisation.

I am hoping the pending slide of Europe into the abyss will open the eyes of the 'ashamed' in this country. Unfortunately most of the 'ashamed' live in states that mirror the policies of Europe... so they have their own issues.

[Splum]

America still kicks ass and is the best country on earth even with its flaws. We are only 230 years old and more powerful and resourceful than nations thousands of years old. Where else can you live during wartime and still be at peace? Clinton was a twat, Bush is a twat and most of the politicians are twats thats why we have OTHER branches of government to curb the twats. May I also comment on Hals original post when he said that as government gets larger it gets more corrupt and thats why I believe in the conservative principle of a smaller government. That does not mean I blindly support all conservative views I have some liberal views as well and thats why this fucking country is great, we can HAVE OUR OWN VIEWS.

[Niklas]

Its amazing how much time and energy is spent on republicans vs democrats. This is what Ive always hated about politics. Even if you are from two diffrent political parties you still want pretty much the same basic shit. Focus on getting that instead of trying to make the other look bad.

It makes you wonder how much further the world would be if we had leaders who'd spend their time getting stuff done rather than fight the "opposition".

[Odin]

Originally Posted by davidd

I am hoping the pending slide of Europe into the abyss will open the eyes of the 'ashamed' in this country. Unfortunately most of the 'ashamed' live in states that mirror the policies of Europe... so they have their own issues.

I can certainly see why you'd think it would happen that way around, but I personally think it might occur in the opposite direction. Perhaps the US won't slide into abyss, but it will certainly loose influence in this world with China, India, Brazil, etc etc rising. Europe will be the first to shake off this ashamed opinion though I believe, at least I hope, as their populations are increasingly subjected to the Muslim takeover. Parties like the Front National (in France), Vlaams, Belang (in Belgium/Flanders), etc (both of which will get 20-30+% of the vote in next months elections in their respective nations) are really forcing the mainstream parties to shake off this 'white guilt' perspective which has led them to become paralysed from taking any real action to protect their culture, heritage and control of their nations in the years following the Second World War.

[DaddyHalbucks]

Bill Clinton is the world's biggest liar.

He is trying to re-write history.

[NickPapageorgio]

They are all liars and crooks. The faster the people of this nation wake up to that reality, the faster change can come about. Then again, there will always be enough spineless sheep who believe 100% of what they hear to fuel partisan lines. Politics is big business...nothing more. Democraps, Redummycans...all of them could care less if you live or die as long as they fill their pockets.

[Caveman61]

olberman is a must watch....It's hard to believe that Wallace is Mike's son. He's a Fox shill!