The Pledge of Allegiance Court Ruling.

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  • Mr.Fiction
    Confirmed User
    • Feb 2002
    • 9484
    #1

    The Pledge of Allegiance Court Ruling.

    The "under god" part of the pledge of allegiance violates the separation of church and state and that specific part is unconstitutional, according to a court ruling released today. The decision was written by a judge appointed by Conservative Republican Richard Nixon.

    Anyone care to comment?

    Should the government have the right to force your kids to praise "god" even if you don't want them to?

    http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,53505,00.html
    Don't be lazy, protect free speech: ACLU | Free Speech Coalition | EFF | IMPA
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    • Brown Bear
      Confirmed User
      • May 2002
      • 4982
      #2
      Everyone should have the right to NOT believe in any God if they want to.
      Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

        Comment

        • drunkmonkey
          Confirmed User
          • Feb 2002
          • 799
          #3
          One of the definitions of god is: a person or thing of supreme value. Everyone has something/someone that is valuable to them and that could be considered god. I do not see "one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." as a religious statement.

          It just seems weird that the Pledge of Allegience is unconstitutional. Next thing you know, the Constitution will be unconstitutional.


            Comment

            • juicylinks
              So Fucking Banned
              • Apr 2001
              • 122992
              #4
              Its amazing what gets into courts these days..only in America

                Comment

                • Brown Bear
                  Confirmed User
                  • May 2002
                  • 4982
                  #5
                  Originally posted by drunkmonkey
                  Everyone has something/someone that is valuable to them and that could be considered god.
                  How do you know that?

                  Maybe I have nobody that is valuable to me.

                  People should have the right to believe or not believe in anything at all. You shouldn't be forced to believe in anything.
                  Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                    Comment

                    • drunkmonkey
                      Confirmed User
                      • Feb 2002
                      • 799
                      #6
                      Originally posted by juicylinks
                      Its amazing what gets into courts these days..only in America
                      No shit. Did you hear about that women who sued some train company the other day because she got hit by a train while she was laying on the tracks? she won a few million dollars.

                      Maybe we should change the Pledge of Allegience to "One nation under the direct influence of Money, completely divisible in increments of 100, with justice and liberty to only those that can afford it."


                        Comment

                        • Brown Bear
                          Confirmed User
                          • May 2002
                          • 4982
                          #7
                          Do you know what an Atheist is?

                          An atheist is someone who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

                          Why should atheist be forced to say that they believe in the existence of a God?
                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                            Comment

                            • drunkmonkey
                              Confirmed User
                              • Feb 2002
                              • 799
                              #8
                              Originally posted by Brown Bear


                              How do you know that?

                              Maybe I have nobody that is valuable to me.

                              People should have the right to believe or not believe in anything at all. You shouldn't be forced to believe in anything.

                              Having the choice to not believe is valuable to you I would assume.


                                Comment

                                • Scootermuze
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Dec 2001
                                  • 4513
                                  #9
                                  I love the irony of this atheist guy that started the whole thing... he doesn't want his kid saying the pledge because of "under God", yet he has no problem filing suit in a court that says, "do you swear to tell the truth so help you God?"

                                    Comment

                                    • Scootermuze
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Dec 2001
                                      • 4513
                                      #10
                                      Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                      Do you know what an Atheist is?

                                      An atheist is someone who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

                                      Why should atheist be forced to say that they believe in the existence of a God?
                                      I would imagine if the kid chose not to say it, it wouldn't have been a big deal. I doubt that they even considered the option before running to the courthouse..

                                        Comment

                                        • Brown Bear
                                          Confirmed User
                                          • May 2002
                                          • 4982
                                          #11
                                          Originally posted by drunkmonkey



                                          Having the choice to not believe is valuable to you I would assume.
                                          Yes, because I like to have the freedom to think whatever I want.

                                          The opposite of that would be muslim countries where you are bound by the ideas of the Quran.

                                          Church and state should be seperate. The US is a secular country.
                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                            Comment

                                            • Brown Bear
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • May 2002
                                              • 4982
                                              #12
                                              Originally posted by Scootermuze
                                              I love the irony of this atheist guy that started the whole thing... he doesn't want his kid saying the pledge because of "under God", yet he has no problem filing suit in a court that says, "do you swear to tell the truth so help you God?"
                                              You are not required to swear to any God in a court of law in the US.
                                              Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                                Comment

                                                • drunkmonkey
                                                  Confirmed User
                                                  • Feb 2002
                                                  • 799
                                                  #13
                                                  Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                                  Do you know what an Atheist is?

                                                  An atheist is someone who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

                                                  Why should atheist be forced to say that they believe in the existence of a God?
                                                  Don't get me wrong, I do not believe that anyone should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegience no more than I believe that people should be forced to not say the Pledge of Allegience. I was dealing with the wording is all. I fail to see why our justice system has to waste energy on items of such little importance when there are many more stressing issues.


                                                    Comment

                                                    • Scootermuze
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                      • 4513
                                                      #14
                                                      Originally posted by Brown Bear


                                                      You are not required to swear to any God in a court of law in the US.
                                                      You're not required to spend money that says, "In God we trust" either, but I bet this guy does.. why hasn't he sued to have that removed from our money I wonder..

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                          Confirmed User
                                                          • May 2002
                                                          • 4982
                                                          #15
                                                          Originally posted by drunkmonkey


                                                          Don't get me wrong, I do not believe that anyone should be forced to say the Pledge of Allegience no more than I believe that people should be forced to not say the Pledge of Allegience. I was dealing with the wording is all. I fail to see why our justice system has to waste energy on items of such little importance when there are many more stressing issues.
                                                          This might not be a big deal to you, but it may be a big deal to lots of other people.

                                                          The justice system doesn't sit around and pick and choose which issues it thinks are more important than others, and then go to work on only certain issues and leave the others to be decided if they have some spare time in the future.
                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Singer
                                                              Confirmed User
                                                              • Sep 2001
                                                              • 437
                                                              #16
                                                              god is great/
                                                              www.JesusBoard.com

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Brown Bear
                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                  • May 2002
                                                                  • 4982
                                                                  #17
                                                                  Originally posted by Scootermuze


                                                                  You're not required to spend money that says, "In God we trust" either, but I bet this guy does.. why hasn't he sued to have that removed from our money I wonder..
                                                                  This stuff takes time to change, I'm sure he's not happy about it, but its not exactly easy to make it change overnight.
                                                                  Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • mike503
                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                      • May 2002
                                                                      • 2243
                                                                      #18
                                                                      i've always wondered about this. seems like even though there is a seperation of church and state, the US is still rooted in catholic belief.

                                                                      "God bless America" says it all. what about athiests?

                                                                      what i think is funny is the very same figure in catholic religion "God" is the same "God" figure that the middle eastern people suicide bomb in the name of. go figure.

                                                                      religion sucks because people are blinded by it.
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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                          • 4982
                                                                          #19
                                                                          Religion is stupid, but it helps weak minded people sleep at night because it gives them an instruction manual on how to live.

                                                                          Religious people can't hack it on their own beliefs, so they follow others like sheep and accept other peoples ideas as their own.
                                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Scootermuze
                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                              • Dec 2001
                                                                              • 4513
                                                                              #20
                                                                              I have no problem with atheism, but it's alot like the catholic race.. The kids seem to born into it.. What if the child had no problem participating? Sounds to me like the guy is dictating how his kid should believe.

                                                                              When I was in the 6th grade, we had a catholic teacher who would read a few verses from the catholic bible and say a prayer every morning. I didn't participate in the prayer because I'm not catholic and had no use for it.. and I doubt that any of the kids listened to his reading, but it wasn't so big of a deal that actions were taken to stop it.

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • jimmyf
                                                                                  OU812
                                                                                  • Feb 2001
                                                                                  • 12651
                                                                                  #21
                                                                                  This will get over tured.. 100% bull shit.

                                                                                  and it has been the law for some time, if the kids do not want to
                                                                                  say it they don't have to.

                                                                                  You have to remember the 9th circuit has been over turned so many times... the 9th circuit should have been split up ages ago...
                                                                                  There was talk about doing that 4 or 5 years ago... maybe it will happen now... because according what am seeing on the news it's really pissed people off.... include me..as being pissed off..

                                                                                  I wonder how the Judges feel when they cash there Gov't checks with in god we trust on them. fucking dip shits...
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                                                                                    • jimmyf
                                                                                      OU812
                                                                                      • Feb 2001
                                                                                      • 12651
                                                                                      #22
                                                                                      Originally posted by Scootermuze
                                                                                      I love the irony of this atheist guy that started the whole thing... he doesn't want his kid saying the pledge because of "under God", yet he has no problem filing suit in a court that says, "do you swear to tell the truth so help you God?"
                                                                                      Well he's getting his 15 min.'s of fame.... he just might not like it
                                                                                      though.... he's made a lot of people mad as hell.. I bet within two weeks he has to go into hidding...
                                                                                      Last edited by jimmyf; 06-26-2002, 06:18 PM.
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                                                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                          • 4982
                                                                                          #23
                                                                                          Why do you guys care so much that the word "God" is in the pledge of allegiance?

                                                                                          It doesn't mean that the pledge itself is going to be scrapped, just the "god" part of it.

                                                                                          Are you guys hardcore religious or something?
                                                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                            • jimmyf
                                                                                              OU812
                                                                                              • Feb 2001
                                                                                              • 12651
                                                                                              #24
                                                                                              Brown Bear

                                                                                              There not be one thing scrapped in the pledge of allegiance?

                                                                                              hardcore religious

                                                                                              Nope I don't even go to church any longer... Did when I was a younger...
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                                                                                                • Brown Bear
                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                  • May 2002
                                                                                                  • 4982
                                                                                                  #25
                                                                                                  The words "under God" were added in 1954 by then President Eisenhower, who stated at the time, "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
                                                                                                  Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                                    • drunkmonkey
                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                                                                      • 799
                                                                                                      #26
                                                                                                      Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                                                                                      Why do you guys care so much that the word "God" is in the pledge of allegiance?
                                                                                                      I was wondering the same about yourself.


                                                                                                      Personally, I could give a shit about the word "god" being in the Pledge. My surprise is at the ferver most "non-religious" people attack anything they see as "religious" when, in fact, they are becoming religious themselves by the mere act. Religion CAN be defined as a faith in a Supreme being. However, I prefer the definition of "a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor." The acquisition of money is some peoples religion. The freedom of speech is others. Religion comes in many forms and one of them is attacking others for their beliefs.


                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                                          • 4982
                                                                                                          #27
                                                                                                          Originally posted by drunkmonkey


                                                                                                          I was wondering the same about yourself.


                                                                                                          Personally, I could give a shit about the word "god" being in the Pledge. My surprise is at the ferver most "non-religious" people attack anything they see as "religious" when, in fact, they are becoming religious themselves by the mere act. Religion CAN be defined as a faith in a Supreme being. However, I prefer the definition of "a cause, principle, or belief held to with faith and ardor." The acquisition of money is some peoples religion. The freedom of speech is others. Religion comes in many forms and one of them is attacking others for their beliefs.
                                                                                                          They are not "attacking others for their beliefs"

                                                                                                          They are protecting themselves from having others force beliefs upon them.
                                                                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                            • Scootermuze
                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                              • Dec 2001
                                                                                                              • 4513
                                                                                                              #28
                                                                                                              Originally posted by Brown Bear


                                                                                                              They are not "attacking others for their beliefs"

                                                                                                              They are protecting themselves from having others force beliefs upon them.
                                                                                                              I have a problem thinking that a child reciting the Pledge of Allegiance is going to be 'forced' into any religious beliefs. It's just another situation where the parent wants to make a big deal over something that the child probably never even thought about, or was even concerned about.

                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                • drunkmonkey
                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                  • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                  • 799
                                                                                                                  #29
                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Brown Bear


                                                                                                                  They are not "attacking others for their beliefs"

                                                                                                                  They are protecting themselves from having others force beliefs upon them.
                                                                                                                  Where we differ, obviously, is that I fail to see "under god" as forcing me to believe. You seem to feel it is an attack of your freedom of religion. I see it as words which have no bearing on my way of life whatsoever. God, I love America. (no offence meant in that last statement )


                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                    • mike503
                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                      • May 2002
                                                                                                                      • 2243
                                                                                                                      #30
                                                                                                                      the issue isn't parents telling their kids what to think or the kids not knowing what they're saying so it has no effect on them.. it's the hypocracy of the government.

                                                                                                                      dollar bills say "in god we trust"
                                                                                                                      the pledge of allegiance talks about god
                                                                                                                      "god bless america" is what people say in times of trouble

                                                                                                                      when there is a law seperating church and state, where "god" is represented by a church and dollar bills, allegiance and everything else represent state, isn't it some sort of hypocracy?

                                                                                                                      that's my beef with the whole issue.

                                                                                                                      just my
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                                                                                                                        • StacyCat
                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                                                          • 1167
                                                                                                                          #31
                                                                                                                          Why not just get rid of the "under god" portion of it?

                                                                                                                          And we have sued to get rid of the "in god we trust" portion of the money, however, the supreme court has refused to rule on it. With this magnitude of a case, they most likely will have to rule on this one. With the rullings come out in the later years reguarding prayer in school and "establishment" it will get overturned. However, even if the Supreme court fails to rule, those stats covered by the 9th court will have to get rid of it.

                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                            • RW316
                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                              • Jun 2002
                                                                                                                              • 1103
                                                                                                                              #32
                                                                                                                              hrmm... so how would the new pledge go then??

                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                • [Labret]
                                                                                                                                  Registered User
                                                                                                                                  • May 2001
                                                                                                                                  • 10945
                                                                                                                                  #33
                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                  Religion is stupid, but it helps weak minded people sleep at night because it gives them an instruction manual on how to live.

                                                                                                                                  Religious people can't hack it on their own beliefs, so they follow others like sheep and accept other peoples ideas as their own.
                                                                                                                                  Well there it is.

                                                                                                                                  A subject that has had more written about it in the history of literature itself than all other subjects combined, destroyed in 2 sentences on a porn webmaster board.

                                                                                                                                  To even remotely try and pigeonhole all religious thought and practice and liken it to merely sheep following someone elses beliefs is absurd.

                                                                                                                                  Myth and ritual have had such a profound effect on human and cultural evolution that to just label religion as some ignorant folly is to basically negate history and prove your own ignorance about the subject at hand.

                                                                                                                                  Just stepping back and looking at the theories behind the collective subconscious and its effect on the development of myth (and religion) is enough to blow most peoples tiny little minds.

                                                                                                                                  I get the feeling you are confusing your views of mainstream evangelical christianity with all religious thought. Dangerous and ignorant.
                                                                                                                                  Last edited by [Labret]; 06-26-2002, 07:27 PM.

                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                    • Hawkeye
                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                                      • 1291
                                                                                                                                      #34
                                                                                                                                      The best part about this whole thing is watching all the right-wing blowhards completely bust their tops talking about this.

                                                                                                                                      Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Jerry Falwell etc are going ballistic and I think it's hilarious. It should be fun listening to the dipshits call in to Rush Limbaugh tomorrow.

                                                                                                                                      You can't pay for this kind of comedy...

                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                                                                          • 4982
                                                                                                                                          #35
                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by mike503
                                                                                                                                          the issue isn't parents telling their kids what to think or the kids not knowing what they're saying so it has no effect on them.. it's the hypocracy of the government.

                                                                                                                                          dollar bills say "in god we trust"
                                                                                                                                          the pledge of allegiance talks about god
                                                                                                                                          "god bless america" is what people say in times of trouble

                                                                                                                                          when there is a law seperating church and state, where "god" is represented by a church and dollar bills, allegiance and everything else represent state, isn't it some sort of hypocracy?

                                                                                                                                          that's my beef with the whole issue.

                                                                                                                                          just my
                                                                                                                                          Exactly, this is an issue about seperation of church and state.

                                                                                                                                          It is unconstitutional for the US government to endorse religion. It must be neutral.
                                                                                                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                                                                            • Scootermuze
                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                              • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                              • 4513
                                                                                                                                              #36
                                                                                                                                              Atheists may not believe in God, but do they believe in the bible?

                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                • Kimmykim
                                                                                                                                                  bitchslapping zebras!!!!!
                                                                                                                                                  • Jun 2001
                                                                                                                                                  • 16015
                                                                                                                                                  #37
                                                                                                                                                  Interesting comment about the 9th Circuit -- anyone in this business should praise whatever they either believe or don't believe in for the 9th, since it's the one that more times than not issues decisions that are good for this industry.

                                                                                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                                                                                    • drunkmonkey
                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                      • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                                                      • 799
                                                                                                                                                      #38
                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by Kimmykim
                                                                                                                                                      Interesting comment about the 9th Circuit -- anyone in this business should praise whatever they either believe or don't believe in for the 9th, since it's the one that more times than not issues decisions that are good for this industry.

                                                                                                                                                      True

                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                        • bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                          Not making A Comeback
                                                                                                                                                          • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                          • 10218
                                                                                                                                                          #39
                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by Scootermuze

                                                                                                                                                          When I was in the 6th grade, we had a catholic teacher who would read a few verses from the catholic bible and say a prayer every morning. I didn't participate in the prayer because I'm not catholic and had no use for it.. and I doubt that any of the kids listened to his reading, but it wasn't so big of a deal that actions were taken to stop it.
                                                                                                                                                          If my taxes are paying that teacher to teach the curriculum, then im about as happy with him saying a prayer and reading a few verses as i am with him rubbing a quick one out and being 5 minutes late for class. No offence, but my taxes don't go towards people wasting time in class pushing their own beliefs.. regardless of if the kids didn't mind or thought it was a cool time waster where they could talk or pass notes for 5 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                          But drunkmonkey as a very "religious" person, you're not likely to see having to say "under god" as a problem at all..
                                                                                                                                                          However, what if the pledge of allegiance said :"one nation under SATAN"..
                                                                                                                                                          sure that pledge of allegiance wouldn't "force you to believe" that.. but you sure as hell wouldn't be so ambivalent about it.. you think thats a pretty silly thing huh? pledging allegiance under SATAN.. you think it would never happen.. why? because people CARE enough about it that it wouldn't.. you'd have words about your kids having to say that in class or be left out.. you'd be shitty about the government forcing it's satanic beliefs into the legislation.. and i mean sure.. pledging allegiance under satan won't affect anything.. not going to do anything to my kid.. it's just words... harmless words that he doesn't have to say... it's just that im not a satanist and i don't agree that it should be pressured into the legislation.. especially when the constitution says there is a seperation of church and state. thats the issue.

                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                            • [Labret]
                                                                                                                                                              Registered User
                                                                                                                                                              • May 2001
                                                                                                                                                              • 10945
                                                                                                                                                              #40
                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by Scootermuze
                                                                                                                                                              Atheists may not believe in God, but do they believe in the bible?
                                                                                                                                                              I am no big fan of Judaism / Islam / Christianity, but you cant deny the importance of the Bible as a historical document.

                                                                                                                                                                Comment

                                                                                                                                                                • Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                  • May 2002
                                                                                                                                                                  • 4982
                                                                                                                                                                  #41
                                                                                                                                                                  Good post bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                                  Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                                                                                                    • bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                                      Not making A Comeback
                                                                                                                                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                                      • 10218
                                                                                                                                                                      #42
                                                                                                                                                                      oh and drunkmonkey, there are "" around "religious" because I know that you'll protest the meaning.

                                                                                                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                                                                                                        • bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                                          Not making A Comeback
                                                                                                                                                                          • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                                          • 10218
                                                                                                                                                                          #43
                                                                                                                                                                          brown bear... thats just the way I see it.
                                                                                                                                                                          Theres no problem with having those sayings on money, pledges etc if you're in a theocracy.. just, the US constitution is very clear on this topic... even if it is a theocracy by proxy.

                                                                                                                                                                            Comment

                                                                                                                                                                            • drunkmonkey
                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                              • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                                                                              • 799
                                                                                                                                                                              #44
                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by bhutocracy


                                                                                                                                                                              If my taxes are paying that teacher to teach the curriculum, then im about as happy with him saying a prayer and reading a few verses as i am with him rubbing a quick one out and being 5 minutes late for class. No offence, but my taxes don't go towards people wasting time in class pushing their own beliefs.. regardless of if the kids didn't mind or thought it was a cool time waster where they could talk or pass notes for 5 minutes.

                                                                                                                                                                              But drunkmonkey as a very "religious" person, you're not likely to see having to say "under god" as a problem at all..
                                                                                                                                                                              However, what if the pledge of allegiance said :"one nation under SATAN"..
                                                                                                                                                                              sure that pledge of allegiance wouldn't "force you to believe" that.. but you sure as hell wouldn't be so ambivalent about it.. you think thats a pretty silly thing huh? pledging allegiance under SATAN.. you think it would never happen.. why? because people CARE enough about it that it wouldn't.. you'd have words about your kids having to say that in class or be left out.. you'd be shitty about the government forcing it's satanic beliefs into the legislation.. and i mean sure.. pledging allegiance under satan won't affect anything.. not going to do anything to my kid.. it's just words... harmless words that he doesn't have to say... it's just that im not a satanist and i don't agree that it should be pressured into the legislation.. especially when the constitution says there is a seperation of church and state. thats the issue.

                                                                                                                                                                              I'm religious? I take it because I do not believe in evolution that makes me a religious person. I am far from religious (assuming that we are defining religious here as a faith in a higher power).

                                                                                                                                                                              Satan, however, is a definable character. Using his name in a pledge would irritate me. Not because of any religious conotation but because I pledge myself to no person or entity. I would be just as irritated if the word god was replaced with Mickey Mouse. The word god is not defineable in the pledge and has different meaning to different people. The god of christianity is different than the god of the muslims which is different than the god of the jews which is different than the god of capitalism which is different than the god of the atheist, etc....


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                                                                                                                                                                                • Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                                                                  Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                  • May 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                  • 4982
                                                                                                                                                                                  #45
                                                                                                                                                                                  The pledge of allegiance existed for decades without the mention of god in it.
                                                                                                                                                                                  Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                                                                                                                    • bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                                                      Not making A Comeback
                                                                                                                                                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                      • 10218
                                                                                                                                                                                      #46
                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by drunkmonkey

                                                                                                                                                                                      I'm religious? I take it because I do not believe in evolution that makes me a religious person. I am far from religious (assuming that we are defining religious here as a faith in a higher power).
                                                                                                                                                                                      anyone that believes in the biblical flood, that the earth is 6000 years old and believes in creation isn't not religious.

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                                                                                                                                                                                        • Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                                                                          Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                          • May 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                          • 4982
                                                                                                                                                                                          #47
                                                                                                                                                                                          Originally posted by drunkmonkey



                                                                                                                                                                                          I'm religious? I take it because I do not believe in evolution that makes me a religious person. I am far from religious (assuming that we are defining religious here as a faith in a higher power).

                                                                                                                                                                                          Satan, however, is a definable character. Using his name in a pledge would irritate me. Not because of any religious conotation but because I pledge myself to no person or entity. I would be just as irritated if the word god was replaced with Mickey Mouse. The word god is not defineable in the pledge and has different meaning to different people. The god of christianity is different than the god of the muslims which is different than the god of the jews which is different than the god of capitalism which is different than the god of the atheist, etc....


                                                                                                                                                                                          It doesn't matter if the word "god" represents any individual religion or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                          It is unconstitutional for the US government to promote religion in general.
                                                                                                                                                                                          Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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                                                                                                                                                                                            • drunkmonkey
                                                                                                                                                                                              Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                              • Feb 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                              • 799
                                                                                                                                                                                              #48
                                                                                                                                                                                              Originally posted by [Labret]


                                                                                                                                                                                              I am no big fan of Judaism / Islam / Christianity, but you cant deny the importance of the Bible as a historical document.
                                                                                                                                                                                              This is true. You can hate the Bible but you cannot deny its impact. To shun it as the work of idiots is ignoring some serious facts.


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                                                                                                                                                                                                • bhutocracy
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Not making A Comeback
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Dec 2001
                                                                                                                                                                                                  • 10218
                                                                                                                                                                                                  #49
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Originally posted by drunkmonkey

                                                                                                                                                                                                  Satan, however, is a definable character.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  we know from the statements by the people that first put the "under god" into the pledge exactly which definable god character they meant.. it certainly wasn't Vishnu.

                                                                                                                                                                                                  they didn't say "we're putting the god of the muslims - allah into the constitution"
                                                                                                                                                                                                  Last edited by bhutocracy; 06-26-2002, 07:51 PM.

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                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Brown Bear
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Confirmed User
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • May 2002
                                                                                                                                                                                                      • 4982
                                                                                                                                                                                                      #50
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Originally posted by drunkmonkey


                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is true. You can hate the Bible but you cannot deny its impact. To shun it as the work of idiots is ignoring some serious facts.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      You're assuming that religion has been a good thing for human society. Some people would argue that a world that never had any religion at all throughout history would have been better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Religion has definitely had a huge impact, but whether it has been good or not is questionable.
                                                                                                                                                                                                      Surrender all your independent thinking and Click Here for re-programming.

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