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-   -   Does my 9/11 stance offend you? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=654373)

yota71 09-11-2006 09:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rochard
Earlier today my wife told me that Osama there is upset with the US because we "set foot on their land" during the 1991 Kuwait war. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we were there on REQUEST from the Saudis and Kuwait (who fled to where during this crisis? England.)

Not to mention that fighting during WWII went all the way to Bagdad in the 1940s. They could all be speaking German now.
Osama and his rebels where trained by the Us Gov to fight the Russians.
After the battle/ war ended we no longer needed his assistance and decided he was a threat to the U.S. People seem to forget that part.

Pleasurepays 09-11-2006 09:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo
Actually I'm correct, you should look over the Patriot Act before you comment on it.

The act allows the government to only have to go before a FISA court to allow for surveillance on your personal phone, library, computer records and so on. A FISA court does not require reasonable suspicion or evidence to do this, and they don't even need to obtain the permission for awhile after they have started surveillance.

Now my comment came on something you said about whether we had been infringed on. I said we'd never know, because the FISA court records are not public record. In fact, a Federal judge also said that individuals do not have the right to know if they have ever been spied on.

Those are the facts of the act, I'm sorry if you have read something different about it. My statement was true. I have not acknowledged whether I support or disapprove of the Patriot Act, just that it does not require the old warrants to look through our records.
you started with a remark that there is no judicial oversite and finished by posting about the fact that there is in fact, judicial oversight?

... and you think i am confused?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

D-Money 09-11-2006 09:33 PM
Hal for President!

:pimp

pocketkangaroo 09-11-2006 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleasurepays
you started with a remark that there is no judicial oversite and finished by posting about the fact that there is in fact, judicial oversight?

... and you think i am confused?

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh
The FISA court isn't judicial oversight in my opinion. You need no evidence or suspicion to be given the right to search. You don't need to inform them for up to 30 days in some cases after you've started looking through personal records. And the FISA courts are not required to tell anyone who they allowed surveillance on, even well after the fact.

The FISA courts are not judicial oversight for American citizens. They are there for foreign surveillance. Look no further than the fact the FISA court has denied 2 requests ever. I don't consider that form of checks and balances the "judicial oversight" the constitution asks for.

beemk 09-11-2006 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleasurepays
unlike most, i think fighting has its place. people are not all the same. people are not all good. some people are violent sociopaths. some people are violent psychopaths. some people suffer from a wide array of psychological issues that drive them towards violence or inflicting violence on others for a wide variety of reasons. sometimes these people manage to ascend to the highest heights of power and control nations, their military and the direction of their country

when i was in about 8th grade, i had a much bigger kid that threw rocks at me as i walked to the bus stop and tried to fight me as well. it happened everyday. i knew it was just a matter of time before i got seriously hurt. it was just a matter of time before i got hit by a rock in the head or face. i told my parents, i told his parents, i told the school. i did everything possible to stop it without hurting him. - "awe... just kids being kids" they all said.

That put me in an awkward position. what were my choices? it seemed to me that no one was going to listen until i came home with blood flowing down my face or lost an eye and most of my front teeth from getting hit in the face with a rock. that wasn't a very good choice for me. my choice was to take my chances and hope i didn't get hurt... or stop him.

so... i told myself that i would end it. for good. i woke up, got ready for school... went out to the garage and got a 18" piece of 1 1/2" pipe, stuck it up the sleeve of my jacket and started walking to the bus stop. as i approached the bus stop, he started throwing rocks at me. i dodged them while warning him to stop as i continued forward. as i finally got up to him, he was standing there and smugly asked "what the fuck are you gonna do now? i think i'll just kick your ass" - i slid the pipe out, cracked him over the head... he dropped to his knees and i hit him a few more times to make sure he wasn't getting up. then i stood over the top of him and made if very clear that if he doesn't stop being a dick, he would be coming to the bus stop in a wheelchair.

.... guess what happened? the bus came, everyone saw him lying in a pool of his own blood, the cops came, his parents tried to press charges against me for being a bad guy.

i didn't think i was the bad guy.

i think it was a simple, normal act of self preservation that worked. he never tried to fight me because he knew my response was going to be 10 times worse than whatever he did to me.

that was the end of it.

i learned a good lesson. ...

i learned that sometimes "talking" can't bring resolution to a situation. sometimes you have to fight. sometimes you have to fight because the other side wants to fight... sometimes there is no choice (or at least no better choice). if there is no choice... then you fight to win and you make sure it ends right then and there, using any and all means necessary.
stop making so much sense.

spunkmaster 09-11-2006 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo
Actually I'm correct, you should look over the Patriot Act before you comment on it.

The act allows the government to only have to go before a FISA court to allow for surveillance on your personal phone, library, computer records and so on. A FISA court does not require reasonable suspicion or evidence to do this, and they don't even need to obtain the permission for awhile after they have started surveillance.
FISA is for "Foreign" communications interception and the supreme court said it requires:

(1) a showing of probable cause that a particular offense has been or is about to be committed;

(2) the applicant must describe with particularity the conversations to be intercepted;

(3) the surveillance must be for a specific, limited period of time in order to minimize the invasion of privacy (the N.Y. law authorized two months of surveillance at a time);

(4) there must be continuing probable cause showings for the surveillance to continue beyond the original termination date;

(5) the surveillance must end once the conversation sought is seized;

(6) notice must be given unless there is an adequate showing of exigency; and

(7) a return on the warrant is required so that the court may oversee and limit the use of the intercepted conversations.



If the target is a "U.S. person," which includes permanent resident aliens and associations and corporations substantially composed of U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens, 50 U.S.C.A. § 1801(i), there must be probable cause to believe that the U.S. person's activities "may" or "are about to" involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States. § 1801(b)(2)(A),(B); see also § 1801(b)(2)(C) (knowingly engages in activities in preparation for sabotage or "international terrorism" on behalf of a foreign power); § 1801(b)(2)(D) (knowingly enters the United States under a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power or, while in the United States, knowingly assumes a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power).

A "United States person" may not be determined to be an agent of a foreign power "solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States." 50 U.S.C. § 1805(a)(3)(A).

Dirty Dane 09-11-2006 10:53 PM
OF COURSE it was NOT muslim terrorists!!

If they did it, why the hell would they attack in daylight, when everyone could see them?? They can attack rest of the world, but attacking USA, their enemy #1, is impossible!
All muslims bragging about jihad, are just trolls and sig whores.

pocketkangaroo 09-11-2006 10:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
FISA is for "Foreign" communications interception and the supreme court said it requires:

(1) a showing of probable cause that a particular offense has been or is about to be committed;

(2) the applicant must describe with particularity the conversations to be intercepted;

(3) the surveillance must be for a specific, limited period of time in order to minimize the invasion of privacy (the N.Y. law authorized two months of surveillance at a time);

(4) there must be continuing probable cause showings for the surveillance to continue beyond the original termination date;

(5) the surveillance must end once the conversation sought is seized;

(6) notice must be given unless there is an adequate showing of exigency; and

(7) a return on the warrant is required so that the court may oversee and limit the use of the intercepted conversations.



If the target is a "U.S. person," which includes permanent resident aliens and associations and corporations substantially composed of U.S. citizens or permanent resident aliens, 50 U.S.C.A. § 1801(i), there must be probable cause to believe that the U.S. person's activities "may" or "are about to" involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States. § 1801(b)(2)(A),(B); see also § 1801(b)(2)(C) (knowingly engages in activities in preparation for sabotage or "international terrorism" on behalf of a foreign power); § 1801(b)(2)(D) (knowingly enters the United States under a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power or, while in the United States, knowingly assumes a false or fraudulent identity for or on behalf of a foreign power).

A "United States person" may not be determined to be an agent of a foreign power "solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States." 50 U.S.C. § 1805(a)(3)(A).
That is the FISA court, but that isn't the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act states now that the FBI only needs to say that the survelliance protects against terrorism to the FISA court. The court does not have the power to reject the application under those circumstances.

Katinka 09-11-2006 11:10 PM
Just about 3000 americans got killed on 911. These people were killed by someone who truely believed in their fight for their freedom. It is called terrorism.

I am sitting here wondering about the number of people killed by the Bush administration and its allies in the years post 911. This is not called terrorism, but a fight for freedom and democracy in the world.

Can someone please explain the difference?

Who are we, the free world, to tell the rest of the world how to live and govern their countries? What gives us this right?

PS. I am full off sympathy for the people who lost their loved ones on 911. And full of sympathy for all people who loose loved ones in the act of war.

BVF 09-11-2006 11:34 PM
I never knew your stance...still don't...I read "There will always be wars....etc. etc." and then I saw those meaty paragraphs and just skipped to the end at "living, loving, laughing, etc..."

spunkmaster 09-11-2006 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo
That is the FISA court, but that isn't the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act states now that the FBI only needs to say that the survelliance protects against terrorism to the FISA court. The court does not have the power to reject the application under those circumstances.

The PA still requires probable cause so they can't log on to your computer to see which sites you visit unles they have something on you first.

Trust me I'm one of the most anti Gov't people here (not in the terrorist way FYI) but as far as the Gov't getting in to peoples lives where they have no right to and so far the PA isn't been abused except they did use it to bust Paypal on their casino transactions.

I deal with Banking and there's been some changes but nothing that most banks weren't already doing. It just a fact that terrorists like to send money via common international transfers.

marketsmart 09-12-2006 12:00 AM
for the people of the world that dont understand the enemy.. the enemy is within.. if you are an american, it is your right to go against the grain of normal" society.. it is also your responsabilty to fight against the grain of "normal" society...

although 9/11 was a tragic event, it is not something that came without many years of american diplomacy.. america, since the industrial revolution, has decided that its "out way or the highway". we meddle in foreign policy and try to determine the fate of nations abroad.. it is said that "we reap what we sow"... the united states and its allies are now reaping many years of forced democracy and greed bestowed on foreign nations...

my only hope is that at some point americans will wake up and start to question the policy of our democratically appointeed govt. it will be only then, that we realize how far we have strayed from our original forefathers thought about what democracy means...

america has become a bully and a self appointed demigod in relation to how it (america) views the rest of the world.. there is no right and wrong when it comes to worldwide harmony and peace, there is only tolerance...

although i am of the opinion that ideologies of countries like iran have no place in the future of the world, i am also realistic as to the path to worldwide peace. it will require an abandonment of a "who's right and who's wrong" ideology and an adoption of "one world, one people" philosophy.. without a movement towards that, the world is in for a very rough ride... and ultimately, i think the paranoia of a single faction needing to rule the world will ultimately lead to its (world) demise...

may we, as a united people, someday (soon) find a common fabric that intertwines us (people of all nations) all into a single solidarity...

spunkmaster 09-12-2006 12:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katinka
Just about 3000 americans got killed on 911. These people were killed by someone who truely believed in their fight for their freedom. It is called terrorism.

I am sitting here wondering about the number of people killed by the Bush administration and its allies in the years post 911. This is not called terrorism, but a fight for freedom and democracy in the world.

Can someone please explain the difference?

Who are we, the free world, to tell the rest of the world how to live and govern their countries? What gives us this right?

PS. I am full off sympathy for the people who lost their loved ones on 911. And full of sympathy for all people who loose loved ones in the act of war.

So what are you saying?

Let someone kill 3000 of our people and we'll just ignore it ?

Lets sit down and talk to them ?

What the fuck you talking about ?

spunkmaster 09-12-2006 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart
for the people of the world that dont understand the enemy.. the enemy is within.. if you are an american, it is your right to go against the grain of normal" society.. it is also your responsabilty to fight against the grain of "normal" society...

although 9/11 was a tragic event, it is not something that came without many years of american diplomacy.. america, since the industrial revolution, has decided that its "out way or the highway". we meddle in foreign policy and try to determine the fate of nations abroad.. it is said that "we reap what we sow"... the united states and its allies are now reaping many years of forced democracy and greed bestowed on foreign nations...

my only hope is that at some point americans will wake up and start to question the policy of our democratically appointeed govt. it will be only then, that we realize how far we have strayed from our original forefathers thought about what democracy means...

america has become a bully and a self appointed demigod in relation to how it (america) views the rest of the world.. there is no right and wrong when it comes to worldwide harmony and peace, there is only tolerance...

although i am of the opinion that ideologies of countries like iran have no place in the future of the world, i am also realistic as to the path to worldwide peace. it will require an abandonment of a "who's right and who's wrong" ideology and an adoption of "one world, one people" philosophy.. without a movement towards that, the world is in for a very rough ride... and ultimately, i think the paranoia of a single faction needing to rule the world will ultimately lead to its (world) demise...

may we, as a united people, someday (soon) find a common fabric that intertwines us (people of all nations) all into a single solidarity...
Don't you know you're talking about President Clinton ?

Cash 09-12-2006 12:10 AM
It's a good debate, it shouldn't offend anyone ...

marketsmart 09-12-2006 12:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
The PA still requires probable cause so they can't log on to your computer to see which sites you visit unles they have something on you first.

Trust me I'm one of the most anti Gov't people here (not in the terrorist way FYI) but as far as the Gov't getting in to peoples lives where they have no right to and so far the PA isn't been abused except they did use it to bust Paypal on their casino transactions.

I deal with Banking and there's been some changes but nothing that most banks weren't already doing. It just a fact that terrorists like to send money via common international transfers.
i think you have missed the boat, no disrespect, but here's why... agreed, you must have probably cause, but probable cause is a fantasy.. if you were drug dealer and i had an illegal wiretap on you and i heard you talking about selling drugs on said illegal wiretap... if i (the govt) really wanted to bust you, dont you think it would be a lot easier to get probable cause? let me answer that for you, the answer is yes... the issue i have is that the govt is using the PA and other national security protocals to violate many constitutional rights.. and is this effort to protect us from terrorism? no, its so that the govt can data mine our private lives in an effort to control how we think and feel.. you may think that this is all tin foil fodder, but let me know how you feel in the next 5-10 years when your civil liberties have been eroded to an uncomfortable state.. a state, where you actually realize how much freedom you have lost... at that point it will be too late...

let me give you a real world example... gas is lets say $2.00 a gallon.. in a few weeks time, it rises to $3.00 a gallon... you are outraged as well as many others... gas then goes down to $2.25 a few weeks later... you are happy... why, becauce gas is cheaper... well its not cheaper than it was 6 weeks ago.. but you forget about that becuase its better than it was...

get my point? well you should becuase it just happened to you over the last 18 months... dont belive me? go look online for the average gas price 18 months ago...

Katinka 09-12-2006 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
So what are you saying?

Let someone kill 3000 of our people and we'll just ignore it ?

Lets sit down and talk to them ?

What the fuck you talking about ?
What I am saying is that what the Bush administration and their allies does around the world is not much better than what the so called terrorist did on 911. Donīt get me wrong, I think what happend on 911 was terrible and that attacks like that are inexcusable.

But have many civilians from Iraq, Afganistan etc, havent been killed by the allied forces in the name of freedom? We (the free world) pay back. Isnt it just natural they, our so called enemies, pay back as well?

But maybe, if the American government stopped believing that they are the watchdog of the world, things like 911 would never happen.

marketsmart 09-12-2006 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
Don't you know you're talking about President Clinton ?
I am talking about, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, and George Bush Jr..... all of them.. it started in the Reagan era in terms of Bush and the alternative agenda... Reagan was a puppet... Geaorge had more power than any other president in a long time... Bill Clinton another puppet... Jr. cant tie his shoelaces without Sr. etc approval..

yes, it sounds crazy but go do some research and u will see the parralells...

pocketkangaroo 09-12-2006 12:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
The PA still requires probable cause so they can't log on to your computer to see which sites you visit unles they have something on you first.

Trust me I'm one of the most anti Gov't people here (not in the terrorist way FYI) but as far as the Gov't getting in to peoples lives where they have no right to and so far the PA isn't been abused except they did use it to bust Paypal on their casino transactions.

I deal with Banking and there's been some changes but nothing that most banks weren't already doing. It just a fact that terrorists like to send money via common international transfers.
It really doesn't though. Read Section 215 of the Patriot Act. It's really creepy. All they need to do now is say that it is for terrorism and they have to sign off on it.

pocketkangaroo 09-12-2006 12:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
So what are you saying?

Let someone kill 3000 of our people and we'll just ignore it ?
Well we lost over 1000 people in Katrina and we pretty much ignored it.

marketsmart 09-12-2006 12:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pocketkangaroo
Well we lost over 1000 people in Katrina and we pretty much ignored it.
if katrina could have been blamed on terroism, it would have been...

the storm is brewing... it will strike before 2008... i am very worried....

Odin 09-12-2006 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon
As MLK said, ?Wars are poor chisels to carve out a peaceful future.?
I prefer this quote

Blood alone moves the wheels of history.
Benito Mussolini

Much of what you have said makes sense though. Certainly I don't live in any more fear now than ever before. That said, I think it can be dangerous to become completely pacifist in such a potentially hostile world. Certainly violence has achieved a lot of honorable things in the past, and it may yet into the future. In this particular circumstance I don't think the 'War on Terrorism' will achieve anything useful in the near future, other than weakening moderate Arabs in the region. But do I think, for example, one bullet in the head of Mugabe and a bit of a plan could of saved alot of trouble for Zimbabwe? Certainly.

grumpy 09-12-2006 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Halcyon
Thoughts On The Anniversary of 9/11

(NOTE: These are thoughts about the post-9/11 world, NOT about the lives that day. I respect the emotions surrounding the event, but want to share a different stance)

There have always been wars.
There has always been treachery and corruption.

The law of nature is that every living thing must strive CONSTANTLY to stay alive. Death and violence is the setting in which all life takes place.

It is hard, but we need to accept that.

And then we need to make reasonable efforts to stay safe, alive, and out of the path of violence.
But do not start believing that it is possible to create a world free of risk.
And CERTAINLY do not start to believe that you can use force to try to stop violence long-term.

As MLK said, ?Wars are poor chisels to carve out a peaceful future.?

One man?s terrorism is another man?s freedom fighting. And since I can never understand what it would be like to see my brother killed at 12 in Somalia or my Father shot in Iraq, I can do little more than theorize about the personal perspectives of America?s ?enemies.?

But I know of no country righteous enough to declare their murder to be fair, and another?s? to be unfair.

In fact, that attitude only ensures that fighting will never cease.

So you can choose to live in a state of constant fear?

Or you can re-calibrate your world view, accept that there are always risks, and then try to enjoy the Now as much as possible.

To live in fear is to trade your present for a worst-case scenario of the future.
Think about that.
What reasonable things can you do to avoid violence?
Do those things and then turn off FOX News.
We are in no more danger than we ever have been.
That is to say, we are ALWAYS in danger.
So re-adjust baseline, and then get back to living.

Living, loving, laughing, remembering, and mourning.


Thank God im not an American. Thanks to your great goverments you guys can live in constant fear.
Quote:
Living, loving, laughing, remembering, and mourning.
but not in the USA.

spunkmaster 09-12-2006 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart
i think you have missed the boat, no disrespect, but here's why... agreed, you must have probably cause, but probable cause is a fantasy.. if you were drug dealer and i had an illegal wiretap on you and i heard you talking about selling drugs on said illegal wiretap... if i (the govt) really wanted to bust you, dont you think it would be a lot easier to get probable cause? let me answer that for you, the answer is yes... the issue i have is that the govt is using the PA and other national security protocals to violate many constitutional rights.. and is this effort to protect us from terrorism? no, its so that the govt can data mine our private lives in an effort to control how we think and feel.. you may think that this is all tin foil fodder, but let me know how you feel in the next 5-10 years when your civil liberties have been eroded to an uncomfortable state.. a state, where you actually realize how much freedom you have lost... at that point it will be too late...

let me give you a real world example... gas is lets say $2.00 a gallon.. in a few weeks time, it rises to $3.00 a gallon... you are outraged as well as many others... gas then goes down to $2.25 a few weeks later... you are happy... why, becauce gas is cheaper... well its not cheaper than it was 6 weeks ago.. but you forget about that becuase its better than it was...

get my point? well you should becuase it just happened to you over the last 18 months... dont belive me? go look online for the average gas price 18 months ago...

You missed the part above where I said they aren't throwing a bunch of people in jail using the PA.

The Patriot Act is a red herring many are using to make their point like you are but the problem is it's a red herring and doesn't hold any water for your argument.

I'll ask this again like I did on page one of this thread.

Provide one link to anything that shows the Patriot Act was used to violiate anyones rights !

You can't because it hasn't happen yet.

Panky 09-12-2006 12:51 AM
Fear and hate are passed down from generation to generation, but each one of us chooses at one point, what and who we will fear and hate. Some people conquer their fears and/or put their fears and hatred to the side and grow as an individual. Others dwell on fear and hatred, thus hindering them.

pocketkangaroo 09-12-2006 12:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
You missed the part above where I said they aren't throwing a bunch of people in jail using the PA.

The Patriot Act is a red herring many are using to make their point like you are but the problem is it's a red herring and doesn't hold any water for your argument.

I'll ask this again like I did on page one of this thread.

Provide one link to anything that shows the Patriot Act was used to violiate anyones rights !

You can't because it hasn't happen yet.
As I stated, you don't know because all those records are sealed. It's easy to say no ones rights were violated when every record is sealed.

spunkmaster 09-12-2006 01:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by marketsmart
I am talking about, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Sr., Bill Clinton, and George Bush Jr..... all of them.. it started in the Reagan era in terms of Bush and the alternative agenda... Reagan was a puppet... Geaorge had more power than any other president in a long time... Bill Clinton another puppet... Jr. cant tie his shoelaces without Sr. etc approval..

yes, it sounds crazy but go do some research and u will see the parralells...

Actually I'm impressed because my answer would be almost the same except that I would have added Carter.

Carter is so fucking stupid he makes Bush Jr. comes off as a genius.

marketsmart 09-12-2006 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spunkmaster
Actually I'm impressed because my answer would be almost the same except that I would have added Carter.

Carter is so fucking stupid he makes Bush Jr. comes off as a genius.
i may be wrong, but i dont think carter wa in on the game... i think reagan was not aware enoguh to know what was going on... however, wasnt bush sr head of the cia back then? i think most of us that were old enough to remember have learned that back then it was intellligence that actually controlled the white house....


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