Lack of illegal workers forces California farmers to abandon fields

[escorpio]

"WATSONVILLE, Calif. (AP) - Some fields in the Pajaro Valley in Northern California's Santa Cruz County are being abandoned because farmers can't find enough workers.

Farmers say there are ten percent to 20 percent fewer workers available to work in the strawberry, raspberry and vegetable fields.

Most farmers attribute the lack of available workers to tightened borders.

One farmer says the labor shortage is the worst he's seen in 30 years.


A spokesman for the Western Growers Association says illegal laborers may make up as much as 80% of the agricultural work in California."


http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp...nav=menu216_10



Where are the American workers that these illegals were putting out of work? Don't they want to work the fields?

[Spunky]

Would you want to work in the hot sun all day picking berries for 10 bucks an hour?

[poisson]

Originally Posted by escorpio

Where are the American workers that these illegals were putting out of work? Don't they want to work the fields?

[iwantchixx]

Originally Posted by Spunky

Would you want to work in the hot sun all day picking berries for 10 bucks an hour?

that's the problem with modern day man.

LAZY

[Alex]

Originally Posted by Spunky

Would you want to work in the hot sun all day picking berries for 10 bucks an hour?

10 bucks an hour?

[Matt 26z]

There are FAR WORSE jobs in America than picking the fields, yet those employers have no problem filling them. Why?

That article does not state how much these field employers pay. If you can't find workers, then that should be a hint that the pay isn't enough.

Ever watch that Dirty Jobs show on TLC? How many of those jobs are harder and more disgusting than picking berries in a field?

[poisson]

Originally Posted by Alex

10 bucks an hour?

Here around Montreal they are paid 8$ an hour. If you put the free rent on top of it you easely get to 10$ an hour.

[kilotoons]

Yup sounds about right, 10 bucks an hour down in Texas

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by escorpio

Where are the American workers that these illegals were putting out of work? Don't they want to work the fields?

[Degenerate]

Kick those dirty beans out.

[GatorB]

This article is bullshit. Lack of illegals in CALIFORNIA? What next, lack of Jews in New York? So what if they can't find workers. PAY MORE and people will work. Of course REAL Americans aren't going to work all day for $3 an hour. If that farmer can't run his business and pay living wages then he should quit and go work for someone else with more business sense. Using the logic of the article we should bring back slavery then the farmers wouldn't be out ANY money for labor. Anyone here for slavery? Anyone..anyone?

[Degenerate]

Originally Posted by GatorB

This article is bullshit. Lack of illegals in CALIFORNIA? What next, lack of Jews in New York? So what if they can't find workers. PAY MORE and people will work. Of course REAL Americans aren't going to work all day for $3 an hour. If that farmer can't run his business and pay living wages then he should quit and go work for someone else with more business sense. Using the logic of the article we should bring back slavery then the farmers wouldn't be out ANY money for labor. Anyone here for slavery? Anyone..anyone?

Agreed 100%

[E$_manager]

farmers should call Russian students to work. Students oftenly work on the fields of POland and Finland and Germany and other countries - gather the strawberry, btw.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by GatorB

This article is bullshit. Lack of illegals in CALIFORNIA? What next, lack of Jews in New York? So what if they can't find workers. PAY MORE and people will work. Of course REAL Americans aren't going to work all day for $3 an hour. If that farmer can't run his business and pay living wages then he should quit and go work for someone else with more business sense. Using the logic of the article we should bring back slavery then the farmers wouldn't be out ANY money for labor. Anyone here for slavery? Anyone..anyone?

What a farmer can afford to pay for labor is kept in check by what the consumer is willing to pay for produce.

Anyone here willing to pay $15 for a pint of strawberries? Anyone...anyone?

[$5 submissions]

Good post and good question. The short-term answer ultimately is a matter of politics (homeland security vs economic demands) and economics (higher short-term prices of produce/fruit). However, this does not preclude the following possibility:

The price of labor increases so much due to high demand for farmhands and low supply that the following things happen 1) further mechanization of picking/sorting processes 2) genetic engineering/better breeding of fruit/vegetable varieties that require less human handling during the mechanized picking process.

One thing that is being overlooked is CAPITAL's (eg. automation, machines, plant genetics, etc etc) ability to substitute for labor.

Originally Posted by escorpio

"WATSONVILLE, Calif. (AP) - Some fields in the Pajaro Valley in Northern California's Santa Cruz County are being abandoned because farmers can't find enough workers.

Farmers say there are ten percent to 20 percent fewer workers available to work in the strawberry, raspberry and vegetable fields.

Most farmers attribute the lack of available workers to tightened borders.

One farmer says the labor shortage is the worst he's seen in 30 years.


A spokesman for the Western Growers Association says illegal laborers may make up as much as 80% of the agricultural work in California."


http://www.kvoa.com/Global/story.asp...nav=menu216_10



Where are the American workers that these illegals were putting out of work? Don't they want to work the fields?

[$5 submissions]

It would probably be worthwhile to look at how JAPAN handles its agricultural labor issue. Japan restricts immigration quite tightly. Notice how food is generally more expensive in Japan than in the US? How much of the disparity is due to US farm subsidies? How much of it is a result of the labor market distortions cauzed by Japan's tight immigration policy? What problems does Japan avoid through such a policy? What problems does it suffer BECAUSE of this policy?

Hopefully the answers point to an answer that can cast some light to this very charged issue in the US

[godisdead]

Not allowing people to work where they want is wrong. If "illegals" want to pick berries for 10$ an hour, that's okay. Let them do it. Obviously no American wants to do that.
But if there's nobody willing to work for you for the wages you offer, you'd have to raise wages. And I guess that's the situation right now.
The correct thing to do, however, would be to let the illegals in to work. I mean, what happened to the idea of the home of the brave and land of the free? Did the US suddenly become afraid of people looking for work? Sad!

[Paul Markham]

Originally Posted by godisdead

Not allowing people to work where they want is wrong. If "illegals" want to pick berries for 10$ an hour, that's okay. Let them do it. Obviously no American wants to do that.
But if there's nobody willing to work for you for the wages you offer, you'd have to raise wages. And I guess that's the situation right now.
The correct thing to do, however, would be to let the illegals in to work. I mean, what happened to the idea of the home of the brave and land of the free? Did the US suddenly become afraid of people looking for work? Sad!

Guess you don't mind it I send over some Czechs to do your job for half your wages then.

The problem of letting them in is they don't always go back when the picking is finished. They go find jobs, painting houses, mowing lawns, then they want to bring their family over and the kids need educating, they don't have a medical plan, mortgage, etc.. Cheaper to pay $15 a pint for strawberries. There are no cheap routes, someone has to pay in the end.

[mardigras]

The last pint of strawberries I bought cost 99 cents...

[godisdead]

Originally Posted by Paul Markham

Guess you don't mind it I send over some Czechs to do your job for half your wages then.

The problem of letting them in is they don't always go back when the picking is finished. They go find jobs, painting houses, mowing lawns, then they want to bring their family over and the kids need educating, they don't have a medical plan, mortgage, etc.. Cheaper to pay $15 a pint for strawberries. There are no cheap routes, someone has to pay in the end.

That's right. I don't mind.

As long as they are willing to work for what they get, I don't see the problem. Just because they may be more industrious and content with less pay is no reason not to let them in. I don't mind if my neighbors show these traits, so I don't care if Czechs do.

"They take our jobs" is just an expression of the fear that there could be people out there who are more industrious. It's wrong. What "right" do I have to force people to hire me if they can get better people for lower pay? I am not entitled to my position. It has to be earned. And if there are people who earn it more than I do, it's theirs.
It's just fair. You don't want to hire overpaid people if you can hire better workers for lower pay, do you? It's just two sides of the same coin.

Either you are for freedom and industry or you are for enforced titles and regulations which defy reason. That's my position and I stand by it.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by escorpio

What a farmer can afford to pay for labor is kept in check by what the consumer is willing to pay for produce.

Anyone here willing to pay $15 for a pint of strawberries? Anyone...anyone?

A farmer that charges that much for strawberries is going to have a lot of strawberries rotting somewhere.

Fact is farmers pay such low wages because they are basically allowed to hire illegals. If they cold afford to pay $100 an hour for labor they would because of WHO they are hiring. Illegals can't complain about work conditions or poor wages. Farmers already get welfare from the government it's just called subsidies. Now they want to be allowed to keep hiring illegals so they can pay low low wages. If I hired an illegal as a maid and I get caught and I didn't pay into Social Security boy the government goes after me hard. Do these farmers turn in Social Security wages for these illegals? Nope. If they hired Americans they would. That's part of the problem with Social Security now. Not enough workers putting in to pay for current retirees. Exasterbate that by having a sizable chunk the the workforce not pay in anything at all and see how much worse it gets.

As I said before why not justify slavery? You're whole point is farmers should be allowed to pay such low wages because that's all they can afford to pay. Well what if they can't afford to pay ANYTHING? Who is going to pick the veggies then? You'll need slaves because they don't get paid anything. But no one here would think that is right. More food is being grown by huge corporate farms and that's the way it's going. And if Mr Greenjeans can't compete he's better off just selling out to the big corporations and moving on to something else. Hell farmers can let their own children as young as 10 work on the farm and operate heavy equipment. WTF other rules do they want that the rest of us aren't allowed to do?

Almost ALL our ancestors here in America farmed. How many of us still do this? Not many. So all this nostalgia for the "family farm" can't just quit. Are people who have their own small gardens and grow their own veggies anti-farmer because that's one less customer?

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by godisdead

Either you are for freedom and industry or you are for enforced titles and regulations which defy reason. That's my position and I stand by it.

because you are retarded. if you don't get the difference between ILLGEAL and LEGAL immigration then you shouldn't even be posting here. If you don't see how ILLEGALS hurt the county then you are to stupid to post here.

Illegals do not pay shit in taxes or into social security or medicare, but because of their low wages and stupid rules they are allowed to take advantge of welfare and things like medicaid. AT least a poor American working at Burger King and getting food stamps is paying into the system that is helping him. Their kids are allowed to go to public schools paid by ME yet they contribute NOTHING except to make crowed classrooms even more crowded while limiting already stretched budgets.

[Yanks_Todd]

Originally Posted by Degenerate

Kick those dirty beans out.

ummm that's the problem dude. Did you actually read the article???

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by Yanks_Todd

ummm that's the problem dude. Did you actually read the article???

actually it's part of the solution. The article is bullshit. I can put an article on the internet that says what I want people to believe.

[godisdead]

Originally Posted by GatorB

because you are retarded. if you don't get the difference between ILLGEAL and LEGAL immigration then you shouldn't even be posting here. If you don't see how ILLEGALS hurt the county then you are to stupid to post here.

Cool down.
As long as they only come to work, there is no problem. Please stay with the facts. Don't accuse me of things I haven't said.

Originally Posted by GatorB

Illegals do not pay shit in taxes or into social security or medicare, but because of their low wages and stupid rules they are allowed to take advantge of welfare and things like medicaid. AT least a poor American working at Burger King and getting food stamps is paying into the system that is helping him. Their kids are allowed to go to public schools paid by ME yet they contribute NOTHING except to make crowed classrooms even more crowded while limiting already stretched budgets.

I agree that if you don't pay for a social system, you have no right to get anything out of it. But then, I'm not all that in favor of social systems in general, because it's in the nature of social systems that certain people get more than they pay and others get less and have to pay more. If you want to help the poor, you can do so privately. Mandatory help and compulsory social systems are nothing but legalized theft.

I hope I made this clearer now.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Illegals do not pay shit in taxes or into social security or medicare, but because of their low wages and stupid rules they are allowed to take advantge of welfare and things like medicaid.

Pure bullshit. Illegals pay billions into Social Security that they'll never see.

You do make an interesting point, "they are allowed to take advantge of welfare". I agree with you, a lot of the complaints about immigration stem from a welfare system badly in need of improvement. The qualifications should be much more strict.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by escorpio

Pure bullshit. Illegals pay billions into Social Security that they'll never see.

Prove that. I'm sure the farmer hiring ILLEGALS is going to fillout the proepr forms and send in the money to the SSA when his workers do NOT even have any SS numbers. Becuase as we all know people that make money off of illegal activities tell the government about it. I mean we all know that drug dealers and prostitutes fill out their 1040's every year. I can guarantee you that the vast majority of farmers hiring illegals pay them in CASH.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by godisdead

I agree that if you don't pay for a social system, you have no right to get anything out of it. But then, I'm not all that in favor of social systems in general, because it's in the nature of social systems that certain people get more than they pay and others get less and have to pay more. If you want to help the poor, you can do so privately. Mandatory help and compulsory social systems are nothing but legalized theft.

I hope I made this clearer now.

A) first of all you're not getting rid of Social Security no matter how much you want it to go away, so you have to deal with that reality.

B) It's not about illegals getting SS benefits. And benefits they would get wouldbe decades away. SS doesn't work that way. They problem is that thew way SS work is that you and me pay SS taxes those monies are not put into some account waiting for the day we retire that are IMMEDIATELY paid out to current retirees. So you have tens of million of retirees get a gauranteed amount of cash that's only goes UP every year and fewer and fewer workers paying into the the system to fund it. Yet those retirees are going to get their money, so where is the extra money need to pay these retirees going to come from? I'll tell you, higher FICA taxes that you get taken out of your paycheck or higher self-employeed taxes for those of us that work for ouselves. You know the same taxes illegals are currently NOT paying.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by GatorB

Prove that.

read this
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniont...1e10ruben.html

"Here's the drill: People enter the country illegally, promptly procure bogus Social Security cards from the black market, and use them to get jobs. Eventually they get paid, and those earnings generate W-2s that go to the Social Security Administration, which tucks them away in something called the "earnings suspense file." (The government does try to notify some of the larger employers that Social Security cards they've accepted appear to be phony, but that's about the extent of its efforts to figure out where all this money is coming from.) According to the best estimates of the Social Security Administration, the fund has kept track over the last 20 years of more than $300 billion in total earnings ? the vast majority of them attributable to illegal immigrants."




Now YOU prove that there is in fact plenty of farmworkers and that the original article I posted is "bullshit", as you stated.

[godisdead]

Originally Posted by GatorB

A) first of all you're not getting rid of Social Security no matter how much you want it to go away, so you have to deal with that reality.

I just find it hard to make a solid moral decision based on principles in a system where it is accepted that a part of what everyone earns is socialized and then redistributed according to political whim.

And even though the system is in place currently, it's man-made and can therefore be changed. It's not like the law of gravity, which I would have to accept as a part of nature. I mean, with that attitude I could also just accept that illegal immigrants get benefits they didn't pay for. It's part of reality, too.

Originally Posted by GatorB

B) It's not about illegals getting SS benefits. And benefits they would get wouldbe decades away. SS doesn't work that way. They problem is that thew way SS work is that you and me pay SS taxes those monies are not put into some account waiting for the day we retire that are IMMEDIATELY paid out to current retirees. So you have tens of million of retirees get a gauranteed amount of cash that's only goes UP every year and fewer and fewer workers paying into the the system to fund it. Yet those retirees are going to get their money, so where is the extra money need to pay these retirees going to come from? I'll tell you, higher FICA taxes that you get taken out of your paycheck or higher self-employeed taxes for those of us that work for ouselves. You know the same taxes illegals are currently NOT paying.

So your basic point is that less people are paying for SS as the non-paying (illegal) part of the economy increases and this raises taxes for the paying rest of society. That's true. But the problem still is not that there are people who are not supporting the system, but that the system is in place to start with.

If there was no system, it would not be endangered by illegal immigrants.

Your arguments make perfect sense. The idea to save the SS system would be to have the illegals pay taxes, too or to keep them out. That would eliminate the problem you've discussed. But it would also increase government control and keeping people from working by force costs money, too, which the taxpayers would also have to pay for.

And that's something I'm against, too. And choosing the lesser evil is not something I get all excited about. I just refuse to defend a mandatory social system, because I think that's the most consistent moral point to make in this issue. (You're still free to call me a dreamer, but the fact remains that this system is man-made. )

That the farmers get subsidies is yet another issue.

[Odin]

Remember the only argument here isn't economical. As unpopular as it may be, there is a very serious social argument here to. Such a huge amount of Hispanic people entering the country so quickly WILL change America forever, perhaps you only notice it now when you drive through certain suburbs, but it won't be restricted to certain suburbs for ever. My question is, is the America of yesterday worth protecting? And by that, yes I do mean a population in which there is a clearly defined majority of people from European descent, with of course the gradual absorption of those who do immigrate into the nation. What is happening now across the globe is THE biggest movement of people in the history of planet, yet no one dares question it. In my opinion this radical movement of people from the third-world, etc (third-world is a dirty word as it is an insult to alot of nations that aren't really third world, but we'll use it now for this purpose) coupled with low birth-rates will result in the death of the west. Perhaps the hardship suffered now by the peoples of South America, Islam and Asia will be worth it in the end, as the decadence of the West is making sure the next century will be theirs. People like to think we have reached some utopia on the planet where these things don't matter, but the fact is we haven't yet, and pushing radical immigration and essentially handing over nations isn't going to help us get there, if anything I believe it will send us further away from a 'one world' utopia people dream of.

[psili]

Population control...
Stop the unchecked proliferation of people...

Blah blah blah... Sometimes (often), I wish there were limits on who could procreate and the numbers they can create.

Originally Posted by Chief

Remember the only argument here isn't economical. As unpopular as it may be, there is a very serious social argument here to. Such a huge amount of Hispanic people entering the country so quickly WILL change America forever, perhaps you only notice it now when you drive through certain suburbs, but it won't be restricted to certain suburbs for ever. My question is, is the America of yesterday worth protecting? And by that, yes I do mean a population in which there is a clearly defined majority of people from European descent, with of course the gradual absorption of those who do immigrate into the nation. What is happening now across the globe is THE biggest movement of people in the history of planet, yet no one dares question it. In my opinion this radical movement of people from the third-world, etc (third-world is a dirty word as it is an insult to alot of nations that aren't really third world, but we'll use it now for this purpose) coupled with low birth-rates will result in the death of the west. Perhaps the hardship suffered now by the peoples of South America, Islam and Asia will be worth it in the end, as the decadence of the West is making sure the next century will be theirs. People like to think we have reached some utopia on the planet where these things don't matter, but the fact is we haven't yet, and pushing radical immigration and essentially handing over nations isn't going to help us get there, if anything I believe it will send us further away from a 'one world' utopia people dream of.

[OG LennyT]

The farmers need to pay more, but it will make produce prices skyrocket.

[OG LennyT]

Originally Posted by Chief

Remember the only argument here isn't economical. As unpopular as it may be, there is a very serious social argument here to. Such a huge amount of Hispanic people entering the country so quickly WILL change America forever, perhaps you only notice it now when you drive through certain suburbs, but it won't be restricted to certain suburbs for ever. My question is, is the America of yesterday worth protecting? And by that, yes I do mean a population in which there is a clearly defined majority of people from European descent, with of course the gradual absorption of those who do immigrate into the nation. What is happening now across the globe is THE biggest movement of people in the history of planet, yet no one dares question it. In my opinion this radical movement of people from the third-world, etc (third-world is a dirty word as it is an insult to alot of nations that aren't really third world, but we'll use it now for this purpose) coupled with low birth-rates will result in the death of the west. Perhaps the hardship suffered now by the peoples of South America, Islam and Asia will be worth it in the end, as the decadence of the West is making sure the next century will be theirs. People like to think we have reached some utopia on the planet where these things don't matter, but the fact is we haven't yet, and pushing radical immigration and essentially handing over nations isn't going to help us get there, if anything I believe it will send us further away from a 'one world' utopia people dream of.

I love reading the rants of racists who mask their hatred behind well written arguments and discussion. Hitler was good at this too, see Mein Kampf for example.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by dvd316

The farmers need to pay more, but it will make produce prices skyrocket.

No it won't. Weather has a lot more to do with prices than labor. Fact is they start charging $5 for a tomato then tomatoes will rot. People will pay what they are willing to pay and that's it. If tomatoes get to high I'll grow them myself. I'll grow extra and sell them a reasonable prices. See how simple that is?

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by godisdead

And even though the system is in place currently, it's man-made and can therefore be changed. It's not like the law of gravity, which I would have to accept as a part of nature. I mean, with that attitude I could also just accept that illegal immigrants get benefits they didn't pay for. It's part of reality, too.

Show me a guy that would vote for getting rid of SS and I'll show you a guy NOT getting elected. SS is not necessarily a bad thing it was just done wrong in the first place and things have changed since 1935 fso a major overhaul is needed regardless. Problem is AARP is pretty big lobby and old people vote and young people don't. Politicians will cater to who votes.

[Tanker]

Ill pay more for my strawberries if they can find legal workers to pick them

shouldnt be too hard they should tell all these able bodies on wellfare to go get a fucking job

[Odin]

Originally Posted by dvd316

I love reading the rants of racists who mask their hatred behind well written arguments and discussion. Hitler was good at this too, see Mein Kampf for example.

I love reading rants from ignorant, brainwashed fools who have no argument. And I have read Mein Kampf, along the Communist Manifesto and many many more books. To be honest Mein Kampf was less than impressive.

[jigg]

fucking shit
the best strawberries are gona get to $10 a pack

we'll have to shop at walmart

[CheneyRumsfeld]

thats going to seriously hurt the pot harvest

[minusonebit]

These companies dont pay enough money, that why Americans arent going to fill those positions. So you are implying that we should let them come here just because they supposedly arent hurting anything? WRONG! This country has laws and they apply to everyone. If the illegals dont have to follow the laws, then neither do I. Illegals should not be allowed to come here illegally to fill positions because companies want to pay peanuts.

The problem with America can be summed up in a single sentance: Everyone in America wants a $25 an hour job, but no one wants to pay for the products or services produced by the other guy's $25 an hour a job.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by minusonebit

These companies dont pay enough money, that why Americans arent going to fill those positions.

There is more to it than that. Let me explain farming and the role of the migrant worker...

Farms are mostly located in sparsely populated rural areas. Because of the nature of farming, there are certain times of year when much labor is needed and other times when it is not. When it is needed (e.g. harvest) is when migrant workers come to the area, do what work is needed and then move on. There is not enough work to support full time employees and therefore people can not move to the area and sustain themselves. That's why Americans won't work the fields. They don't want to travel hundreds of miles for a temporary job and they can't permanantly relocate to an area where there isn't full time work.

[pornguy]

Originally Posted by escorpio

Where are the American workers that these illegals were putting out of work? Don't they want to work the fields?

Sure they want to work the fields, but 2$ an hour is not enough. Anyway. they are on a coffee, and cig break. they should be back in about an hour.

[GatorB]

Originally Posted by escorpio

There is more to it than that. Let me explain farming and the role of the migrant worker...

Farms are mostly located in sparsely populated rural areas. Because of the nature of farming, there are certain times of year when much labor is needed and other times when it is not. When it is needed (e.g. harvest) is when migrant workers come to the area, do what work is needed and then move on. There is not enough work to support full time employees and therefore people can not move to the area and sustain themselves. That's why Americans won't work the fields. They don't want to travel hundreds of miles for a temporary job and they can't permanantly relocate to an area where there isn't full time work.

So what you are implying is that ALL migrant farm workers are illegal. I beg to differ.

[dynastoned]

i find that hard to believe.. every morning i go to get some coffee i see a crowd of 50+ illegals looking for work.

[OG LennyT]

Originally Posted by Chief

I love reading rants from ignorant, brainwashed fools who have no argument.

I wasnt ranting or arguing, just stating a pleasant observation.

Hitting too close to home?

[Drake]

Let those farmers go under. They're obviously not doing something right. There are other States producing those crops and they aren't having problems.

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by GatorB

So what you are implying is that ALL migrant farm workers are illegal. I beg to differ.

Of course not "ALL" are illegal, but many are. Nowhere did I imply an absolute like "ALL."

[Mr. Soul]

Oh damn, poor farmers, they're going to have to start paying reasonable wages to get people to work their asses off. That's horrible! They should just be able to keep slaves.

[Moose]

This has nothing to do with tightened borders,more are coming in more now than ever in the last few years. Everything to do with them moving into better paying jobs in the restaurant and construction and other better paying easier to work fields. Why would they sit out in the sun picking berries for pennies when they can get better jobs elswhere now with the abundance of fake documents and employers turning a blind eye to it.