pocketkangaroo

This is for the affiliates out there. Sit back and relax for a minute, the world is not coming to an end.

First, 2257 has had little to no enforcement in nearly 20 years. I'm not saying that this means they won't, I'm just saying it still doesn't seem too high of a priority on anyone's list.

The law on secondary producers is very vague and still has yet to be tested not only in our courts, but constitutionally as well. Those of us with some law background realize that this case would be difficult to prosecute, and doing so would turn the internet on end. It would force companies like Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft to shut down image searches. Myspace, Facebook, and Webshots would be liable for dirty pictures posted and not to mention every message board/blogger who has posted some naked photo at one time or another. I just don't see the government doing something this drastic.

I also don't think secondary producers are going to be targets period. Why bother with a guy running a little TGP when you can target a big porn producer? Even if they went after a secondary producer, would they not go after a very big site, potentially borderline mainstream to make a statement? A site like College Humor or one of those big forums that you see a lot of nude pictures posted on? Or maybe target a site that goes over the line with pissing, fisting, and other extreme hardcore material.

We also can't forget that 2257 is still just a record keeping law. Although the thoughts of 5 years in jail will scare the crap out of most of you, in reality, there isn't a judge in the world who is going to sentence you to 5 years in jail for that. People don't even get that for actually molesting a child nowadays. In reality, all you'd probably have to do is get the documents from the primary producers and show them in court. They aren't going to give you 5 years for not having paper work with you. If the girls are not under 18, you have nothing to do with child pornography.

I don't mean to discount the threat that 2257 potentially has, I'm just trying to talk some people down from the ledge here. There are hundreds of thousands of websites with pornographic material online. The odds of you being singled out is not very high. Unless your content is completely over the lines, your advertising yourself as a pornographer to everyone you know in the community, and your drawing huge amounts of attention to yourself, the government is probably not going to give two shits about you and your blog. They have bigger fish to fry and are not going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in resources on an affiliate. They have already had a year on the books with 2257 and haven't busted in any affiliates door yet.

And finally, this is a controversial business. Any business that involves controversy has its risks. If the government wants to get you, 2257 is not going to matter. They can nail your ass to the door for obscenity anytime they want and get away with it. They can charge you with corrupting the youth, Spam, or anything they think they can get away with. It's a risk you take when you join this industry. I think until we see an affiliate actually prosecuted for this, we can't completely go off our rocker.

If you're worried, lay low. Don't go posting your URLs on the boards, make sure you use private registrations, and heck, even host outside the US where they can't go after your records. Stay away from the extreme stuff and be careful with the teen/lolita crap and what you say on your site. Don't give them a reason to target you.

I know I'll get slammed by many for this, but I just think many everyday affiliates are drastically overreacting to this whole thing. It's the program owners and content producers they want. If there is one thing I've learned about the federal government, they don't go small.

media

Anyone looking for advice should seek legal counsel from a certified lawyer, not a gfy lawyer..

__________________
I'm here for the violence!

spacedog

thanks for that information

xclusive

Very good point. If people want to panic and get out i'm fine with that though

__________________
I support MediumPimpin.com / Shemp's Outlawtgp.com /

pocketkangaroo

No lawyer is going to be able to give you a definitive answer. The law is untested and unproven. Ask 10 lawyers and you'll get 10 different interpretations.

CaptainHowdy

It was a nice read...

__________________

zEn84

Thank you for posting that,people need to relax for a minute. This always happens with gfy, like a gfy stock market. Couple people panic and people follow, like everyone selling their sirius satellite stock and costing me $8000.. sigh..

Serge Litehead

sounds reasonable

__________________

media

At least a lawyer will be able to defend their client if it goes to trial.. your advice is grossly innacurate... lay low and host offshore? Are you kidding me?

Seriously man, in all fairness I understand your point, but do NOT be telling people to lay low, tell people to get off their lazy fucking asses and ACT, get your shit together and be compliant, and prosper... do what you do as a person who runs a business, not some fly by night opperation...

__________________
I'm here for the violence!

pocketkangaroo

I am not saying that anyone should just lay low and host offshore. I'm saying that unless you are in the spotlight actively flaunting yourself to the government, you are probably not going to have to worry about shit.

I'm saying that the feds aren't going to bust down everyone on GFY's door tomorrow looking for paperwork. I'm saying that the mass hysteria on GFY is probably not warranted. If the government wants to arrest you or I, they don't need a 2257 law to do it.

Webby

True Media.. let it rest and cool and be legally aware. Sure, there is a chance of legals and these need defending, but stuff like moving offshore for US folks is not an option. As long as a webmaster has citizenship to a country - there is little choice but to comply with all laws in that country.

Let's see what court rulings are before slitting throats.

__________________
XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

pocketkangaroo

My comment about moving offshore was simply because I feel that the harder the target, the less likely you'll even be in their crosshairs. If they truly want to nail a few affiliates, they'll take out the easy targets first.

Webby

pk.. one thing to bear in mind is this - tho it may appear bad right now, this is not the worst scenario. Also, relying on not having 2257 blah records inspected is also not exactly a good idea.

Chances are, tho who knows - this current status may yet change, but, meanwhile, there is an obligation to comply with whatever laws. It's the same everywhere - tho, admittedly, this situation is unusual in most countries, let's hope that changes in the longer term.

__________________
XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

footmonkey

Everyone should join the free speech coalition, imho.

pocketkangaroo

I am compliant with everything I have. I just think the mass hysteria has gotten out of hand. Affiliates are just as much in danger now as they were on July 27th. This isn't entirely new.

Either way, the feds can pound down my door and charge me with obscenity any day. No 2257 paperwork will save me from that.

Webby

Believe me man - it's not, but totally agree it's a common prosecutor strategy to take a sample of eg.. a few affiliates where most of them will crack and deliver up a precident.

Better say the reasons for not offshore...

(a) Hosting offshore may be fine, but if a webmaster retains citizenship of whatever country - they are still liable under that country's laws.

(b) Setting up an offshore corp is even more complex in that the beneficial owner may still be a citizen of X country - and may still be liable for violations.
The US in addition (tho that is the exception) also presents another problem in that there is a requirement for IRS filings declaring that corp. OK.. ya can lie on filings, but that opens up the possibility of more serious tax evasion stuff and can be grounds for extradition.

I've already got some clues and will be checking with lawyers this coming week to throw a few options at em. There *may* be avenues worth persuing, tho they will have conditions attached (tho no biggie), but *very* important to maintain. So, will see what happens from that..

__________________
XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

Webby

That can happen anywhere

Obscenity is another matter.. been thru that and fortunately won (tho was what was described as "the mildest form of obscenity" and that was even harder to win ) - it's part of the adult biz unfortunately.

__________________
XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

marketsmart

i just started purchasing content with 2257 docs and will continue to purchase more. Regardless of what happens in terms of enforcement or how the new regs hold up in court, i will sleep peacefully at night knowing i am complying with the law... imo, people should always prepare for the worst possible outcome and adapt as needed. we can all speculate on who the govt will target next and how the new regs will play out, but i for one dont want to be the unlucky person that gets that knock on the door and is in violation of the law.

Kimo

we are so fucked!

__________________
...

jayeff

We are all guessing, but my guess is that your assessment is way off. The flurry of activity over the past 18-24 months was a result of Ashcroft having to tell Congress that there had been no 2257 activity. His excuse was that the then current law was inadequate.

Since then we have had two sets of amendments (last summer and this week), which together with the current political climate, I think will make it impossible for the Attorney General to report zero activity again in the near future. The AG has to report on 2257 activity to Congress once per year.

You aren't wrong about the untested nature of the amended law, nor are you wrong about statistics being in favor of individuals. But if someone fails an inspection and is prosecuted, he/she might well have his business shut down (at least temporarily), have to finance his defense, take a public defender, or plead guilty. We can only guess at how the sentencing will go, but the possible sentence is very severe.

Everyone has to make his/her own decision, but I think a head-in-the-sand approach to this is lunacy. Either comply or modify your sites so that compliance isn't necessary. I know that quitting the country is a third option, but in all honesty, how many will actually go that far...

jayeff

I hope that whatever you are promoting in your signature is making you some money, because you pasting (almost) the same stupid comments in every thread is getting really old.

Madame0120

I also don't think secondary producers are going to be targets period. Why bother with a guy running a little TGP when you can target a big porn producer? Even if they went after a secondary producer, would they not go after a very big site, potentially borderline mainstream to make a statement?

They will charge whomever they have their best case to Prosecute and set presidence. Law means nothing, till it has been tested. The Record keeping is one more charge to tack on, and nail your ass just a lil snugger.

The little guy?

He would plead out, not set a presidence and there'd be one less peddler of legal entertainment sullying up the cyber streets. The Bonus is some juicy data to bring to the masses, so the lie can become truth.

No issues here with following what ever the current laws of doing business are.. My issue is with the Fat Cats, who used the memory of murdered children as fodder for the machine.

Pure D Shameful! And a loss for the many children being abused, right this second.

__________________
Try Something New! Teasing Bucks
Mistress Always Wins!

pocketkangaroo

Atleast I'm not the only one who notices that. Seems like every year when the summer sale goes we see these sig whores. I don't mind them in the "hit it" threads but they should stay out of real business threads.

nastynun

__________________
Just a 41 year old original cam model from way back, fetish princess, pantyhose and Gothic craft maker. Graphics designer when need be. Just an all around "Web Mistress".

ronaldo

I've been saying exactly this since the original 2257 scare and stand by it.

Further, when the defense points out that the government is risking people's lives by having to offer up model's home addresses to anyone and everyone who "Promotes" LEGAL adult entertainment and WE as an industry are more caring about our fellow citizens safety than the government, how is that going to make them look? One example a defense lawyer could raise, is that this isn't limited to only the models themselves (who the government has already stated are worth risking, again, "To protect the children") but it would also include the families of these models...including YOUNGER siblings! Are THOSE children exempt from government protection because their older, LEGAL aged siblings choose to make legal adult entertainment?

Remember that the general public has absolutely NO understanding of what the laws really mean, other than they're meant to "Protect our children." Who's against that? The government wants the general public to believe that WE'RE against it. Once that shroud of deceipt is lifted, I believe ANY judge OR jury is going to see the law for what it is.

Perhaps I'm naive to believe that when I can PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt, with all legal, GOVERNMENT documentation, that every single person I promote IS of legal age, my fellow citizens will come to realize that the laws on the book are unsafe, unreasonable and biased specifically against the legal adult entertainment world.

Imagine the uproar if Hollywood studios had to offer up the home addresses of it's stars (that would be subject to 2257 in OUR world), to every theater owner or video store operator in the U.S. that shows or rents the movie (that would make them a secondary producer, no?). The media and lawyers would have a field day and it would never come to pass.

I believe that the secondary producer requirements are a battle that our industry will eventually win, but it'll be costly, and I also admittedly wouldn't want to be the one sitting in the defendants seat.

/end rant

DWB

Bottom line about offshore:

They will run through all the people living within the USA before they even think about fucking with the people out of the USA. For no other reason than the fact that they will not be sending FBI agents to do random inspections in another country.

It is not illegal to live, work, host, bank or list your office offshore. Though this of course does NOT make you exempt from 2257 by any means, it will knock you WAAAAAAAAY down on the list IF, and that's a big if, they inspect everyone and end up at your name on the huge list of webmasters. With that said, they will inspect a handful and if everyone is OK, I doubt it would continue or get the funding to travel out of the USA to conduct the same inspections that were turning up nothing in the first place.

Then add the fact that they would probably not even get permission to conduct such inspections in other countries and you will probably be fine. If you were wanted for a serious crime, that is one thing, but to INSPECT RECORDS... not gonna happen.

BUT.... if just one of us fail...... I gotta feeling all hell is gonna break loose because that will give them all the fuel they need to start an all out war.

My personal opinion is that I hope they crack the fucking whip and knock the the slackers and 1/2 assess out of business and only the strong and organized will survive. You will know who these people are by the ones who respond to my post by telling me to fuck off. If your shit is together, you have nothing to worry about.

Webby

Fuck off DWB

Seriously - think you hit the nail on the head. There is a level of doing biz and the volumes of stupidity in webmasters does not reach that level. The danger is, these people will screw up others in the US who do have a clue of reality on the adult business - and, as you said, all hell could break out.

__________________
XXX TLD's - Another mosquito to swat.

ronaldo

I agree with everything you wrote except the second paragraph there.

The LAST thing our industry needs is for the government to succeed and plaster the headlines all over the place about how many pornographers were caught "Breaking the law", and how the new regulations to "Protect the children" are working...even though not ONE child will have been saved from the big bad pornographers. That's how it will be spun in the media, and we'll all look worse because of it. The public isn't going to look any further and see that the laws that were broken were only clerical errors...only that the government is succeeding in it's mission to save the children by prosecuting scumbag pornographers.

Online adult marketers are so closely associated with cp distributors by the general public that many of them simply don't differentiate anymore. It's been drilled into their heads that we're all one in the same. While there will always be opponents to pornography, if the government and media made a clear distinction (a direct conflict to their agenda mind you), I believe there'd be much fewer people opposing us, because they'd realize what WE'RE doing ISN'T illegal, and the government would have a much tougher time passing laws like this without actual justification.