A business topic? Upsells?

[TMM_John]

Something that has always bothered me about the "new" crowd in this biz is their constant complaining about "traffic leaks" on revshare programs.

Granted, some things can get out of hand and are totally foolish.

However, some affiliates scream like crazy about simple small upsells in the members areas on revshare programs.

Their argument that I've heard is "It's a revshare program. I'm supposed to be your partner and get 60% of what my traffic makes".

Well, thats all fine, but if being a full partner means getting 60% of any and all revenue generated shouldn't being a full partner mean paying 60% of hosting costs? content costs? site design? marketing costs? labor? etc. etc.

Too many people in this biz this days want the best of both worlds and want it both ways.

I'm not saying everyone. There are a ton of great affiliates both old and new and as I said some programs get totally out of hand with the "traffic leaks" but if you're really going to flip out over a few upsells in quality members area, get over yourself.

Your thoughts?

[Anna_O]

Good post. As long as the main object is to retain the member I have no problem promoting revshare sites with a few upsells inside.

[RRRED]

Originally Posted by PBucksJohn

Something that has always bothered me about the "new" crowd in this biz is their constant complaining about "traffic leaks" on revshare programs.

Granted, some things can get out of hand and are totally foolish.

However, some affiliates scream like crazy about simple small upsells in the members areas on revshare programs.

Their argument that I've heard is "It's a revshare program. I'm supposed to be your partner and get 60% of what my traffic makes".

Well, thats all fine, but if being a full partner means getting 60% of any and all revenue generated shouldn't being a full partner mean paying 60% of hosting costs? content costs? site design? marketing costs? labor? etc. etc.

Too many people in this biz this days want the best of both worlds and want it both ways.

I'm not saying everyone. There are a ton of great affiliates both old and new and as I said some programs get totally out of hand with the "traffic leaks" but if you're really going to flip out over a few upsells in quality members area, get over yourself.

Your thoughts?

Oh shut up and let's go make out

[TMM_John]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Good post. As long as the main object is to retain the member I have no problem promoting revshare sites with a few upsells inside.

Exactly. If you're getting a % of rebills on a members area that consists of 20 upsells to live chat feeds and some dating sites then its unfair and I can absolutely understand not promoting that program. However, if a members area has tons of exclusive content along the lines of which it advertises and has a few relevant, cleanly placed, non-intrusive upsells, whats the real harm?

[BradM]

I agree completely. But you try explaining that to an affiliate. The industry has made some things standard.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Good post. As long as the main object is to retain the member I have no problem promoting revshare sites with a few upsells inside.

However, the real problem arises when the member hits one of those upsells and finds better stuff, thus cancelling the account making the referring webmaster money.

John, while your argument stands, it's only as good as the competition is going to accept. Basically if someone hears enough frustrated webmasters whine about this and decides to capitalize on it by sharing ALL revenue with them, then I'd like to see you try to make that argument with them, without bringing in any other strong points. Ceteris paribus, a sponsor with no traffic leaks should always be able to outperform one with traffic leaks, in terms of attracting affiliates.

[chowda]

G R E E D

webmasters wanting more and more.

[TMM_John]

Originally Posted by DamageX

However, the real problem arises when the member hits one of those upsells and finds better stuff, thus cancelling the account making the referring webmaster money.

John, while your argument stands, it's only as good as the competition is going to accept. Basically if someone hears enough frustrated webmasters whine about this and decides to capitalize on it by sharing ALL revenue with them, then I'd like to see you try to make that argument with them, without bringing in any other strong points. Ceteris paribus, a sponsor with no traffic leaks should always be able to outperform one with traffic leaks, in terms of attracting affiliates.

Regarding retension; Program A has 500 hours of exclusive video, multisite access to 30 sites, a well laid out members area and content that is exactly what the surfer signed up for along with a few cleanly placed upsells to other quality sites, Program B has a few non-exclusive photo sets, some plugin video feeds that don't quite fit the niche the surfer joined for, access to one site, and zero upsells to other sites.

Program A will out reatain program B very heavily. Two reasons, one, there are a lot more "Program B" type members areas out there than you would imagine, and two, surfers are smart these days. They're familiar with how paysites work, how trials work, how to find other sites, and what is good quality and bad quality, etc. They're not the sufers of the mid to late 90s where they rebilled blindly for months. They're staying becuase they choose to not becuase something else wasn't thrown in their face. If they're unhappy they'll go and find it, they know how. So the arguement that retension will be better without upsells really isn't a good one.

Regarding attracting affiliates; There are way too many factors to make an "always" blanket statement like that. And way too many intelligent affiliates out there also. Granted there are some who will base who they do business on such small generalizations but the majority of those who do are the smaller affiliates anyway.

If all it took to win affiliates over was not having upsells or paying out on them it would be a lot easier to grow an affiliate program.

If two affiliate programs were exactly the same with the exception of paying out on or not having upsells then obviously all affiliates would choose the one without them. But we both know that no two programs are even closely similiar. The smart affiliate will choose a quality product to promote over being greedy about that little bit of "leaked" revenue.

[fuzebox]

It is kind of annoying when some revshare-only sites have huge aggressive upsells... There's a few big sites out there that give the member an FPA to another program before they even get to the members area they just signed up for, which is kind of a kick in the balls to the affiliate.

[TMM_John]

I'm not saying there aren't affiliates out there who would simply not promote a program becuase there are upsells in the members areas. Thats why I created the thread in the first place. They're just a bit misguided and hopefully we can wake a few of them up

[TMM_John]

Originally Posted by fuzebox

It is kind of annoying when some revshare-only sites have huge aggressive upsells... There's a few big sites out there that give the member an FPA to another program before they even get to the members area they just signed up for, which is kind of a kick in the balls to the affiliate.

Exactly. Too much of anything is a bad thing. There are some members areas out there which are nothing but upsells I'm sure.

Which brings us to another point. As an affiliate, signup for the site(s) you wish to promote or simply ask the affiliate rep or program owner for a password to the site (if they don't allow you to have one, somethings up). Ask yourself if it's a website you'd be happy to be a member of. If its not, move on. As an affiliate you're selling a product so it should be a good one. Don't just jump at the $40 payouts or claims of endless rebills. Take a look at what is going on behind the scenes. Even on PPS, a lousy members area may result in lots of credits or chargebacks which will hurt you, the affiliate, in one way or another. On revshare, you're just asking for no rebills or trial conversions.

[J. Falcon]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Good post. As long as the main object is to retain the member I have no problem promoting revshare sites with a few upsells inside.

Well said. Upsells retain members, and thats good for bboth sides.

[chowda]

i guess my idea is just too good for affiliates then

too bad its hard finding good mainstream ones

[Chris]

Threads like this do not belong on GFY
It makes wayyyyyy to much sence ;)

but if you are pro upsell


SEEEE SIGGG AND CONTACT ME FOR BAD ASS DEALS

[Dagwolf]

Upsells in the members' area are the paysite's business, and a good thing in moderation. Payouts would be a lot smaller if sponsors had to depend entirely on membership sales.

[Anna_O]

Originally Posted by DamageX

However, the real problem arises when the member hits one of those upsells and finds better stuff, thus cancelling the account making the referring webmaster money.

Sorry, was occupied submitting our second paysite for CCBill and Visa approval, now you have my full attention again

If you promote shitty sites - yes the members will run. If you promote good sites they will stay. And if they cancel they'd usually do it anyway, regardless of buying an upsell or not.

A much worse problem imho is the people who cancel before even logging in to the members area

[Rui]

Originally Posted by Chris

Threads like this do not belong on GFY
It makes wayyyyyy to much sence ;)

but if you are pro upsell


SEEEE SIGGG AND CONTACT ME FOR BAD ASS DEALS

You will have to pass tru me first

[CuriousToyBoy]

Originally Posted by RRRED

Oh shut up and let's go make out

[DWB]

Originally Posted by PBucksJohn

Something that has always bothered me about the "new" crowd in this biz is their constant complaining about "traffic leaks" on revshare programs.

Granted, some things can get out of hand and are totally foolish.

However, some affiliates scream like crazy about simple small upsells in the members areas on revshare programs.

Their argument that I've heard is "It's a revshare program. I'm supposed to be your partner and get 60% of what my traffic makes".

Well, thats all fine, but if being a full partner means getting 60% of any and all revenue generated shouldn't being a full partner mean paying 60% of hosting costs? content costs? site design? marketing costs? labor? etc. etc.

Too many people in this biz this days want the best of both worlds and want it both ways.

I'm not saying everyone. There are a ton of great affiliates both old and new and as I said some programs get totally out of hand with the "traffic leaks" but if you're really going to flip out over a few upsells in quality members area, get over yourself.

Your thoughts?

I agree with you 110%.

If they do revshare, that is a % of the JOIN. If they want a % of the cams or other upsells... chip in on my hosting bill or help pay for my next shoot.

[Shocking]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Sorry, was occupied submitting our second paysite for CCBill and Visa approval, now you have my full attention again

If you promote shitty sites - yes the members will run. If you promote good sites they will stay. And if they cancel they'd usually do it anyway, regardless of buying an upsell or not.

A much worse problem imho is the people who cancel before even logging in to the members area

And that happens very often in these days. i guess the lack of information and the amount of programs is a key in this mater.

[DamageX]

Originally Posted by PBucksJohn

Regarding retension; Program A has 500 hours of exclusive video, multisite access to 30 sites, a well laid out members area and content that is exactly what the surfer signed up for along with a few cleanly placed upsells to other quality sites, Program B has a few non-exclusive photo sets, some plugin video feeds that don't quite fit the niche the surfer joined for, access to one site, and zero upsells to other sites.

Program A will out reatain program B very heavily. Two reasons, one, there are a lot more "Program B" type members areas out there than you would imagine, and two, surfers are smart these days. They're familiar with how paysites work, how trials work, how to find other sites, and what is good quality and bad quality, etc. They're not the sufers of the mid to late 90s where they rebilled blindly for months. They're staying becuase they choose to not becuase something else wasn't thrown in their face. If they're unhappy they'll go and find it, they know how. So the arguement that retension will be better without upsells really isn't a good one.

Regarding attracting affiliates; There are way too many factors to make an "always" blanket statement like that. And way too many intelligent affiliates out there also. Granted there are some who will base who they do business on such small generalizations but the majority of those who do are the smaller affiliates anyway.

If all it took to win affiliates over was not having upsells or paying out on them it would be a lot easier to grow an affiliate program.

If two affiliate programs were exactly the same with the exception of paying out on or not having upsells then obviously all affiliates would choose the one without them. But we both know that no two programs are even closely similiar. The smart affiliate will choose a quality product to promote over being greedy about that little bit of "leaked" revenue.

The issue here isn't what you have or not. It's having affiliates get it through their thick skulls that what you have to offer will make them more money. It's that "elevator pitch" you have to make to each and every potential affiliate, which many a time will give your ad a total attention time of about 2-3s, the first time. It's about making your program so attractive to potential affiliates that, once they realize that you do actually have upsells, they feel that they could care less, since they make *so much more* with you, than with the competition.

Sure, there are smart affiliates out there, but let's face it, most of the time those smart ones are VERY loyal to sponsors they promote heavily, which they do for a reason. It's like trying to make people switch banks, most won't do it. At the end of the day you end up in the same position that most sponsors are in, namely trying to sell your program to the wide masses. Which is a bitch to do, if not done right, especially since competition is getting fiercer by the day.

Anna_O, good point.

[Anna_O]

Originally Posted by DamageX

Anna_O, good point.

Right back at ya!

[darksoul]

well, its very simple.
Nobody has a problem with upsells as long as the program lets me know that it does upsells before I bother to put any links up.

The problem we're facing its the dickheads that do upsells without affiliates beeing aware of it.

[SomeCreep]

IMO, upsells are acceptable so long as they are not used in excess.

[Princess Ellisa]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Good post. As long as the main object is to retain the member I have no problem promoting revshare sites with a few upsells inside.

Fantastic will you sign up to my program and send me some traffic please

Very good post John, very valuable points. Although I am sure the affiliates looking to be paid on all cross sells, exits and upsells do not think so lol

[Barefootsies]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

A much worse problem imho is the people who cancel before even logging in to the members area

So true. I have a good half dozen between all sites who seem to do that every month. Sign up, and before they've even had a chance to log in, cancel.

It always slightly amuses/annoys me.