50 shavers...

Not sure how many sponsors shave but nice to hear about Twistys I might look into signing up. I do know that as my sponsors have upgraded to the latest version of NATS my sales have tanked one by one. I'm not sure if its shaving or something wrong wth NATS but besides my sales tanking I've had other affiliates sales show up in my stats as well which is really weird. Of course when I ask if anything is wrong the standard answer is no, nothings wrong and I get the spiel about NATS being infalliable. So who knows. At this point I'm hemmoraging money and I'm thinking of just starting over and looking for new sponsors that don't use NATS and seeing if there is a difference.

There was some prgrams with issues when they switched to NATS. Also, you are used to that number having rebills in it so the first few months suck crap as you are rebuilding the base. I think overall you do better with NATS sites as you get the bookmarks. No way to get a bookmark sale on a ccBill site as the ref code is not there to be bookmarked.

Which illustrates perfectly why shaving is only one consideration and although such "trix" are out in the open, one suspects program operators rely upon many affiliates being too idle to check what their surfers will be subjected to or too greedy to consider the impact of such diversions.

Of course an affiliate has no way to quantify how much more he could be making if the same site were honest and clean. And so what? That alternative doesn't exist: he can only see the results he gets from things as they are.

All I have noticed over the years is that generally you get a consistent package. A sponsor who sets out to jerk surfers around, usually does the same with affiliates via non-responsive support, little in the way of updated promo material, etc. Sponsors who are straightforward with their customers are usually better to work with as an affiliate.

There are exceptions to both models and being a "good" sponsor doesn't always translate into affiliate dollars. But how many sponsors does one affiliate need? There are certainly enough money-makers who don't have you constantly wondering what they will pull next, I'm surprised how many will work with those who obviously regard everyone they do business with as fair game.

see sig ...

ps, hows it hanging shap? i gotta holler at yoo online sometime ... r u going to amsterdam in sept?

mikey

Because anybody who makes that statement hasn't run a paysite and seen the difference in running an affiliate program via ccbill vs an affiliate software like MPA. Affiliates will see more sales thru an affiliate software provided it is run by an honest company.

I'm not being a dick when i say that. If you ever start a paysite you'll see exactly what i mean.

I suppose I can see where you are coming from. No, i don't run my own program but would like too later down the road. Every story has two sides and we appear to be at that cross road, lol.

Absolutely. I used to be in your shoes and I know the feeling. It's the same way i feel with the processors. My sales drop and i scream scrub and they laugh and say you don't know what you are talking about. Our industry is built on perceptions and it seems to have carried over from the fantasy part of it to the business side of it. You never know exactly what the situation is until you are running it which i might add definitely sucks.

I've never run an affiliate program from the CCBill perspective but know how one works from affiliate software (well, at least one built by a third party). Anyway... could this "shaving" also be partly attributed to:

1. Affiliate being unaware of how to use the sponsor links (wrong links, misjudgment of the link to sponsor, etc).
2. The sponsor not properly defining the correct links to use, not alerting affiliates of the links to use, etc.
3. Programs unaware of "leaks" in their tours / systems that lead to a join which don't get attributed to an affiliate signup.

Basically, there's so many factors into what could be considered a "shave" on the sponsor end that aren't the cause of the payment processor. I can imagine how nuts it must be to run a sponsor programs. Fucking insane and I salute those who try and do it amiably.

I've seen a PAYSITE leak traffic to a ccbill link with PA=XXXXX, litterally, XXXXXXX.

Food for thought.

That's just plain poor quality assurance standards. And if you think about it, how many adult programs out there are big enough to have a QA department dedicated to the testing and retesting of changes made to a system? I've only worked at a few companies before the one I'm at, and only one had a dedicated QA department - a 1000+ auto insurer company. All other companies had a laxidasical (sp?) approach to software / website checking.

Great Thread.:thumbsup Nats affiliate tools are light years ahead of ccbills affiliate system. I for one can tell you that sales have risen from most of my affiliates since the switch.

I think anyone that has been around awhile knows that any CC processing system can have leaks and can be shaved. I suspect there are some honest sponsors, some that selectively shave (depends on who you are) and then those out to fuck the world.

If I had to guess, I'd say over 75% shave or count on the leaks. To put it another way, create situations where leaks would be more common.

Of course as an affiliate and I see 0:5500 for the month on a sponsor I have to go WTF? Then I see 0:12000 and go WTF! twice. Good thing they aren't all that way!

Seems that if you build a relationship with most sponsors, your numbers get better. Some might suggest that the shave is varied? Or if you're a player, you get treated better? Of course with a sponsor you are working with, they help with selecting which ads convert the best and help with special needs for your sites.

If someone is shaving you you're never going to know about it, and there's no sense in worrying about it.

Just send your traffic to the program that makes you the most money.
For me the most money has come from solid revshare programs, and I see all the PPS program owners on the board talking about how they're "superior" to the revshare programs and "if the revshare program was so great then why don't they pay per signup and keep all the extra?"

It's all hogwash if you ask me. With plenty of revshare programs I make way less than $35 per signup but for some reason I'll do more than twice as many signups with the revshare program as opposed to giving a PPS program the same ad position. (things that make you go hmmmmmm)

Really all that matters is what your net profit is at the end of the week/month/year. Everything else is just details

I think most webmasters would be best served by keeping their eyes on the bottom line and not worrying about conversion ratios, per click $$, per signup payout, $$ per banner impression, or any of the other bazillion ways you can look at your stats.
You can't put your stats in the bank and feed your family with them, the net profit is all that matters.

:2 cents:

I'm actually curious about your revshare vs. PPS programs -- what about those who offer both options? Is it still better to take the revshare over PPS? Is it like some strange voodoo thing that a revshare link will convert better than a PPS link to the same program's website?

Granted, the above questions are pretty stupid, but now I'm curious about it.

Instead of thinking about who is shaving, look at a sponsor program and see how they would be able to pay you $35-40 a join.

Go with ccbill affiliates and you wont have to worry about shaving. :winkwink:

With no trials this is not difficult at all.

Read thru this thread you'll see why your comment is wrong.

Hi,

get in contact with me pls regarding this so I can take a look.

ICQ: 1889711

Do you think that any sponsor that pays $30-35 on trials is shaving?

A a lot of revshare programs don't do what many pps programs do, so of course they don't see how one can pay $30-35 per trial.

Thank you Nathan. I'll send get in touch with you on ICQ monday morning. I appreciate your being willing to take a look.

Yeah he made a very dumb comment there. Many programs do, many programs dont. Look at the owners/managers for your answers.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh :1orglaugh

i'm not sure how widespread shaving is, but traffic leaks are another concern of mine. (email boxes, links to dvd stores)

We offer both Rev-share and PPS we also offer Console free or with consoles

the choice is yours!

some prefer one over the other. to say one is better then the other is absurd

I prefer PPS money upfront because i can reinvest it right away. to make more and I dont trust most companies because they might go out of business then i lose my recurring base with them.

I agree with you 100%. These days you never know when someone is going to find jesus and close up shop. Also with the way some people handle themselves on the boards, why would you ever trust them with a recurring base.

No one knows what percentage of affiliate programs as a whole, do shave. I believe there are plenty of affiliate programs that shave certain affiliates for whatever reasons. Probably, the most common reason a sponsor shaves is too keep that affiliate profitable for them. Personally, out of the many sponsors I promote, there are 2 sponsors which I believe shave and are very obvious about it.

No I'm not talking about using revshare links for a company that offers both options.
I'm talking about a company that offers revshare only versus a company that offers PPS.
Now granted there are per signup programs out there that have converted much better for me than alot of revshare programs....but I've found that the "right" revshare program is what makes me the most money in the long run.

I've thrown ALOT of traffic at ALOT of programs over the years, is this is what I've learned from my experience.

Here's a stupid question. How many PPS companies use NATS? (very few)
Of the few who do, how much are they paying per signup? (usually much less than what other programs pay per join)
Why do you think that is?

Oh Rly? Kinda naive. There are so many ways.... Remember your affiliate ID has to show up on the signup page.

Would you call leakage a form of shaving?

You are right about that. A site geared towards covering high PPS payouts will rarely ever work out well as a revshare site. The reasons are obvious if you think for a moment...

Similarly, if you cannot live with sites that have on-enter consoles, consoles between tour pages or excessive chains of exit consoles, leave them alone completely. It's rare to find strong tours on sites which are putting as many barriers as possible in the way of a sale, so at least check the tour out before going for a no-console option (and be sure you know exactly how much you will be penalized for going this route because some sponsors really take the p*ss).