You know why this issue pisses me the fuck off so much? A lot of people in this thread are a PERFECT illustration:

You get these straight people, who have no idea what "marriage" really provides, and take for granted all of the rights and protections that they have, and simply dismiss without thought or education on the topic, the idea of gays getting married.

Being able to visit your loved one in the hospital, being able to bury them and attend their funeral should they die, being able to keep the house you shared together for 40 years when one passes without having to pay taxes that are so large you're forced to sell the house, being able to have shared health benefits, the list goes on and on and on and on and on.

You breeders can get drunk one night in Vegas, sign a slip of paper, and in 20 minutes have ALL of those protections, plus over 1,200 more federal protections.

My partner and I have had to spend years and thousands upon thousands of dollars to just BEGIN to provide some of those protections for each other.

And even with that being done, in most states, families can dispute any paperwork that gays have drafted, and in a lot of cases they win at the expense of the surviving partner.

The laws are fucked, they're discriminatory, and they're bigoted. Fuck your ideological beliefs, you're Jesus bullshit, and the President's political games he's playing with the constitution. These are REAL people's lives we're talking about.

yeah i can see your points here and i agree that these parts should be changed and recognized for gay couples.


yeah but gay couples also don't have to worry about golddiggers that want to marry you and then divorce you a year later, taking HALF of your money. you also dont have to pay alimony if you choose to split up. what you are fighting for can be a pandoras box at times. careful what you wish for.


what you got to understand is that just because you dont believe in God or Jesus, doesn't mean that the people in power agree with you. this country was founded on it's religious beliefs and there will never be a complete separation of church and state.

What YOU apparently don't understand is that most of the people in power couldn't give a flying fuck less about Jesus or any of that crap.

It's a tool people like George Bush use to get the mindless sheep in this country to vote for his sorry ass.

You think he cared about Jesus when he was fucking hookers behind his wife's back, snorting coke, and driving around drunk every other night of the week? NO. But, the second gays want equal rights and protections in this country, it's JESUS OUR LORD DOES NOT APPROVE OF YOUR LIFESTYLE.

Fuck them. :321GFY

i'm in love with elle and i am a lesbian so i fit right in here.

The moral decay of our society continues.

and i am assuming that you can prove ANY of what you just said? come on boyalley, you are smarter than that shit. how can you know what their actual beliefs deep down are? you are substituting your opinion for actual facts (which is exactly what you hate them for doing). you gotta be careful or you end up being guilty of the exact same ignorant and close-minded bullshit that they are.

[QUOTE=BoyAlley]it's JESUS OUR LORD DOES NOT APPROVE OF YOUR LIFESTYLE./QUOTE]

1. I have no issues here, as I think discrimination is discrimination.

2. The fact is, most people have issues about someone of one sex fucking another of the same sex.

PERIOD.

If it's Jesus telling those people it's wrong, or something else, who the fuck knows. Stop bitching about Jesus. Religion is only one reason why people fight against the union of homosexual couples.

I'm sorry, but the rights of many, these days, not just homosexuals, are stepped on, ignored and just plain thrown out the window. This thread is the least of my worries as a human being living in the US, in regard to rights.

Oh sorry I guess I should have toughed it out with my cheating, drug addicted wife. Your ignornace just proves you don't need to be marired. Oh wait please do. I want to see you back here in a few years telling me how right I was. Maybe if your lucky you'll live in a state where your "wife" will get half your shit. So good luck with that.

Quit acting like gays are better at relationships. I'm quite positive that if gays could get married thay'd sufer the same 60% divorce rate.

My grandmother got remarried at 77 to a 78 year old man. I'm 100% positive that it was never intended to or could ever lead to procreation. SO she shouldn't have been allowed to get married?

And as long as you have this "all or nothing" attitude the religous right will continue to elect very conservative republicans and you will never get ANY rights. You could have gotten your "civil unions" years ago then give society time to adjust then go for the whole "marriage" thing in 25 years.

Everyone has the right to be with who they love and be happy!

Apologies. My "procreation" thing was a bit too much, I guess.

I think gays are barking up the wrong tree and they will never win the uphill battle that is ahead of them..... *never* will they win with the strategy that has been used up to this point. - and before you ask or bash, yes, I think there is and should be an amicable solution.

There are way too many variable that factor into the argument and while politics get the final say on the matter (and I say that because the ones who actually make the laws hold [or were appointed to] public office) the guy standing at the front isn't necessarily to blame when it's the ones behind him driving the argument in various directions.

I said there were many variable - but (for the purpose of this thread) I only want to focus on the one that I think are the biggest challenge that gays have to overcome.

Seperate But Equal


If you ever utter the phrase "seperate but equal" in defense of gay marriages, you may as well follow it up with any thoughts/beliefs you have but before you stop talking just say "but you're right and I'm wrong so I'll shut-up and go home and won't bother anyone about this matter any more". Women are seperate but equal. Blacks are seperate but equal. Being gay isn't seperate - it's different and that is the the point of attack that I think would work in their favor to getting the protections they want.

You don't get to choose your race (other than Michael Jackson) nor do you get to choose (at birth) your sex. Being gay is perceived as a lifestyle choice and, right or wrong, perception is reality.


Different But Equal.

If you use this as your "catch phrase" no one can argue their point against you. Being gay IS being different than being a heterosexual and there is nothing wrong with being different - isn't that what makes America great to begin with - it's diversity of people or at least "supposed" to make America great.

The downside of diversity is the different idealogical, political, ethical, religious and all the other beliefs that come with that diversity. Also on the downside of being different is that politicians *have* to cater to groups that have the largest population within the various "groups" of people and by nature, gays can not reproduce with each other (meaning a man can not get another man pregnant nor a woman get another woman pregnant). Since heterosexuals can, gays will never have the population explosion that would be necessary for politicians to listen to their message over heterosexuals, which, when using the "seperate but equal" arguement, they would need.

<sidenote>
On a side note, yes, we all know about adoption, mid-wives and artificial insemenation so yes, they can become parents, but to do that they need "outside" help with their reproduction and before you try and toss out the "well, heterosexual couple do that too" argument, some heterosexuals do have to do that when their "parts" don't work whereas every single gay couple has to. Anyone slapping that argument around is splitting hairs when you damn well know the point that's being made. The whole purpose the the procreation point was just to point out that gays will never exceed the heterosexual population
</sidenote>

, but let's move on shall we?

What do gays want? I'm not gay so I can't answer that question from personal experience and everyone is different so not all gays want the same thing... but from what I'm reading here.

Gays want society to accept their "marriage" and to have the same rights/privledges of married heterosexuals. Stop asking for that because gays will NEVER get it - and I for one, don't believe you should WANT it.

First of all, if you need society to "accept your relationship", I'd say you don't have much of a relationship to begin with. I'm married to who I'm married to and I could give a flying fuck if you accept it or not. Also, by wanting me to "accept" anything, you're asking me to change what I believe in and that's just not going to happen - because you "want" me to.

Choose another noun - marriage is already taken. I'd like to call my company Microsoft but no matter how many wishbones I pull on, it ain't gonna' happen. Call it "life partner" perhaps and then come up with the legal protections for that term - and there's no reason they can't have the same legal protections as groups that are married. Every company is different and run differently - but the all have pretty much the same legal documentations/formations as each other - different but equal.

<personal note>
BoyAlley, I feel your pain regarding what gays have to go through upon the death of their partner, but they can get some protection by forming an LLC and having the terms of that LLC state that upon the death of one of the members, their shares revert to the surviving member - then purchase assets (house/cars/whatever) though the LLC - and effectively shut out family member disputes. Hell, that's easier/cheaper to do than a heterosexual marriage! No, there are many other factors that wouldn't solve, but I did say "some protections" - now damn - turn off the yellow font already - you should be able to make your point without it!
</personalnote>

Maybe she wasn't that way when I married her.

Quote:

I've been with my partner for 8 years now, and I made sure I really KNEW him before I committed myself to that. I don't imagine I'll be telling you that you're right.

Fuck off with your pompous attitude. I don't why you are being an asshole towards me. anyways how did you KNOW him? You figured out which side to slide your dick in his ass to avoid the hemorrhoids?

Hell I've defended gay people's right to adopt here in this threead and you are being an ass towards me? Go find some more hairy ass to fuck you limp wristed queer.

this seperate but equal thing is kinda funny.
A gay man has every right to marry a woman. His rights are 100% equal to that of a strait man. Both have the equal right to marry a woman.
The end. :winkwink:

here we gooo....

Well if this is the case then we as Americans will now have to call marriages between Jews and Catholics, Christians and Muslims, Mormons and Atheists, blacks and whites, and any other combination of couples that are not acceptable as a religious union, "civil unionized."

I'm sure a large percentage of Americans said they weren't going to "accept" blacks as citizens, since they were only worth 3/4 of a person at one time. In fact, I'm sure some people even said they weren't going to "accept" blacks being able to VOTE!

But the truth of the matter is, when you're dead no one will care about if you "accepted" anything. Gay marriage is going to happen, maybe not in your lifetime, maybe not in mine. But it is GOING to happen, and more power to the people who choose to be open-minded and fight for EQUAL rights between all Americans.

I'm not speaking of any one topic. One might think eating liver and onions is healthy and everyone should eat it to substain a longer life - but that doesn't mean I'll accept that point of view because someone "wants me to".

Who would care what a dead person thought. I'm talking about acceptance between living people.

I think your right and wrong. I believe that there will be a point in time - and possibly in my lifetime - that gay unions will have most of the legal protections as heterosexual couples - but it won't be referred to as a "marriage".

dude, read your post again. It's full of feelings and womanese bullshit.
You obviously needed a dominant male figure in your life growing up.

Straight couples are given legal "privledges" because they are helping us evolve as humans by creating life. No gay couple can provide this - FACT.

Comparing a straight marriage to a gay marriage is unfair for both sides.

"There is nothing so unequal as the treatment of uneuqals"

I have an older cousin who is gay. He has been with his life partner for about 30 years now. They both pay income tax, they pay property taxes, they do community service work. My cousin is high up in Revenue Canada and he volunteers by doing the income tax of low income individuals, his partner is a nurse who volunteers as a respite worker (he will go and stay a day or two at a home of a family that has a disabled child do they can go away and take a break once in a while).

So anyways, they are both in love, both great members of society and a hell of a lot happier than most. They travel extensively and are more "married" than most married people I know. So I have NO PROBLEM with two individuals that love each other getting married. What gender they happen to be is not important either, and if they want to raise a child, more power to them.