the drake equation? again... refer to my exemple of the woman murderer earlier... Let's brush off any evidences we have because some guy came up with a formula that says it would be unlikely... You think that that formula isnt disputed?

And let's hear what you think about the Disclosure project... 400+ whistleblowers... Not Joe Blow the farmer that saw a red spot in the sky... But professionals from ranked military officers, CIA, NASA , FAA people, astronauts, etc... all willing to go to congress and lie under oath...? Present false documents to congress? Present fake witnesses to congress to support their fake account? Let's hear it...

First and foremost, the Drake Equation is not just "some formula". In fact, although one can dispute the variables, the equation itself is pretty much bulletproof. Also, it was not just created by "some guy", it was created by Frank Drake - a professor in astronomy and astrophysics, who founded SETI and is absolutely convinced that alien life does in fact exist and that it is inevitable that humanity will make "contact" in the (near) future. However, even he believes that there is no compelling evidence for the whole UFO thing.

As for the Disclosure Project, I am fully convinced that some of those participating saw things but misinterpreted those, that others saw things that were just secret military technology, that yet others are completely insane, and that the project as a whole is extremely biased. Remember, every single religion in the world can come up with thousands upon thousands of testimonies from "respected" sources to support its dogmas.

And here are some nice quotes from the DP:

"In short, the definitive solution to the world's energy, pollution, and poverty problems exists within compartmentalized projects that need planned disclosure and relevant legislation."

"A clear and on-going threat to the national security and world peace has arisen because of unauthorized covert actions that have led to the targeting and downing of these extraterrestrial vehicles and to related covert plans to weaponize space."

"[...]the testimony shows that [these extraterrestrial civilizations] are very concerned about nuclear and space-based weapons systems, and human warfare"

Oh, some more on the Disclosure Project: it's led by Stephen Greer, a man who has claimed that he is in telepathic contact with extraterrestrials, and offers courses in "guiding" extraterrestrial spacecraft. Ehm, yeah, that isn't weird at all.

Not sure if this has been said. But there are absoultely UFO sightings all the time. But all that means is an "unidentified flying object". This classification in no way implies alien activity. Its just something seen in the air that can't be seen clearly enough to identify.

Wow!! Very convincing argument.. except for the fact that Drake and Seti are the biggest UFO skeptics you'll ever hear... You know, even the president of any skeptic association doesnt disagree with Drake...? They all believe that alien life is a possibility... Does that add to their credibility?





yeah, easy to discredit anything based on generalisations like that... "misinterprations", "insanity" , etc.... Remember about Intellectual rigour? Nevermind the details... the motto of true Skeptics :)

As for world religions... Those 400 whistleblowers didnt lived 2000 years ago... I think that makes them more reliable.. Small detail right?

Ofcourse, admitting the opposite would discredit the whole SETI project and prove it has been a failure... :)

I'm just here for the coffee and donuts. I've already got my mind made up about UFOs.

You have made the definitive statement. I myself have seen a UFO late one night. I have no idea what it was. If I did know what it was it would not be a UFO. Someone once made the statement (Sagen for one) that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" and there is in fact zero proof that any sighted UFO is alien related.

Yes, it does add to their credibility that they keep all options open, rather than wildly speculating about all sorts of things (like MJ12, PI40, organizations shooting down UFOs to steal their technology, etc.).

What exactly do you mean by "intellectual rigour"? To me, it means considering all options, investigating them, and then practicing inference to the best explanation, all the while accepting that the best explanation may prove to be wrong later on.

Now, intellectual rigour leads me to the following line of reasoning:

1. I have seen plenty of proof that there are shitloads of people who claim truly absurd things, that have proven to be completely erroneous.
2. Therefore, I will not accept a claim that seems truly absurd in the context of my entire body of knowledge, based on mere claims by a relatively small group of people.
3. I will only change my current views on such absurd claims when presented either with compelling evidence, or statements from a very large body of people whose observations I trust.
4. UFO theory is truly absurd, considering such things as the Drake Equation, the idea of alien life so advanced it can travel across the universe yet so simplistic it can not cloak itself or observe earth from a distance, large numbers of people successfully keeping such essential knowledge from the public, etc.
5. Therefore, I will not believe UFO theory unless presented with compelling evidence or testimonies from a very large number of trustworthy people.

There are millions of people alive today, many of them professors and scientists, who truly believe they speak with God on a daily basis.

Exactly. I've seen a UFO myself once, when I was a kid. Later, I learned that it was probably just a meteorite. Considering the number of natural phenomenons humanity simply does not understand yet, as well as the number of people willing to blindly accept anything they see or experience as proof of "something more", it seems extremely likely that people are just interpreting things the wrong way - a bit like people in older civilizations who thought thunder was caused by the gods.

50........... :arcadefre

ofcourse.. and I dont care much about unsubstanciated claims myself..


you know, if those 400+ highly credible wistleblowers would testify about a crime you had commited in court... you'd be found gulity.. a slam dunk...
But ofcourse, if you aren't willing to actually go thru the large list of witnesses and their testimonies... you'll never be able to judge whether or not the case has merit...




So you're comparing people who ear voices with those high quality and credible wistlelowers... people who have in large part documents or witnesses to back them up? You think they are all hallucinating? If you'd take a closer look at the 400+ testimonies... you'd realised that very few can be viewed as a "possible" case visual hallucination...

again, you generalize... you bring up a strawman argument... Point that there's idiots that will mistake a light in the sky, probably a meteorite or a plane, for a UFO... and then make a generalisation out of it...

Ofcourse there's plenty of idiots out there... If you're going to try to debunk something.. debunk the best cases.. not the weakests.. If you don't see the UFO do incredible manoeuvres... (amongst other things) it pobably isnt one..

What I am pointing out is that the vast majority of UFO sightings have eventually become IFO sightings, often fakes. Of the few cases that remain, many are shady or badly filmed (Stephen Greer from the DP: camera's tend not to work well around UFOs, and cameramen become distracted - yeah fucking right), or they are testimonies that can not be verified.

Another bad analogy. They are not all witnesses of the same event, therefore none of those events themselves is corroborated by the other testimonies. Combined with the fact that it is widely known that witnesses in, for example, criminal cases are EXTREMELY likely to screw up parts of what they have seen, add details (or entire new things), or misinterpret things they see, there is no reason to assume that these witnesses are any more credible. Now, if a large number of them had witnessed the same single event, and that event had been very clearly not open to any other interpretation (like the zeppelin that caused hundreds of UFO reports), it would be a different case.

If you really trust witnesses so much, you should do some research on philosophy of mind, specifically the research into how incredibly unreliable the human mind is in registering visual stimulation.

So you're comparing those thousands of intelligent, religious people with good educations who stand in a long tradition involving millions of people with a few hundred nutjobs who think they've been abducted by ET?

(no, I don't actually believe in religion - just pointing out that your attempted refutation of my argument doesn't work)

But yes, I do compare religious people who give testimony of things I consider untrue to UFO believers who give testimony of things I consider untrue.

No, you're dead wrong here. There are enormous volumes of UFO reports with multiple witnesses on file both with the federal government and state government files. Not only those files but foreign files as well as private organizations.

The same level of evidence that can convict a man of murder are disregarded with UFO evidence that's very strong. The extraterrestrial hypothesis is just ONE of many explanations of UFOs.

And your last sentence says it all: there are many other possible explanations. Or, using the analogy of a murder case, there are many possible perpetrators.

There is NO undeniable evidence that proves that the many UFO sightings are actually sightings of extraterrestrials, rather than sightings of natural phenomenons, sightings of secret military experiments, etc.

Knowing with absolute certainty that the vast majority of UFO sightings are sightings of the latter type, why assume that those that are less clear are explained by something that is both completely different and extremely unlikely?

Now you've stepped into an area that's scaring everyone.

If the intelligences behind these UFO abductions aren't extraterrestrial then that means they're terrestrial which points to humans, humanoids, or other life forms that evolved on this world which we know nothing about. Either way, something is using us for biological experimentation and no one is doing shit about it.

Does that make you sleep better?

I was talking about sightings, not abductions.

However, when it comes to abductions, the lack of credible witnesses is even greater. But apart from the vast majority that are fake stories, nutjob hallucinations and drug-induced hallucinations, it is not unlikely for (some) governments to be performing (some) experiments on citizens. Hell, they've done it before.

UFO = my sperm shooting out across the room

There is no doubt in my mind that we are not alone.

How long was planet Earth around before humans came into existance? It's possible that another planet had intelligent life tens of thousands of years before we came around? If this is true, then another form of intelligent life was alive and could have tens of thousands of years of history before we came into being - and the knowledge that would go with it.

If bears can sleep through the winter, is it not possible that another race can sleep for years while traveling through space?

The question is if they have visited us already, why haven't they landed and said "here we are". If they are able to do space travel at this level, clearly they are much smarter and more advanced than the human race - and wouldn't be afraid of us.

LOL. That theory was very hard to debunk.

I liked hearing the abduction story that one guy told. The aliens were very sophisticated. They made themselves appear exactly like two of his friends. They also made the inside of their spaceship appear exactly like his buddies garage. He was then tied up and "probed" by the aliens in their spaceship for hours before he woke up.

Lack of credible witnesses? This shows me how unaware of the facts you are. Either by not looking or by half looking at some evaluations done by people who didn't examine themselves.

The untold number of abduction reports comprise people mostly of college education and income. Not the other way around. The occupation index ranges from laborers to government officials, doctors, military, teachers, even astronauts.

So don't give that half assed answer that the abduction witnesses aren't credible. That's doing yourself a disservice at the least.

Don't judge a phenomena by the tv news and comedians. They'll have you think all abductees are rednecks out fishing instead of the opposite mostly professionals and multiple abductees. The majority of abductions don't happen when people are asleep either. Nor when people are on drugs or alcohol nor mental problems. People wide awake during daylight hours just going on about their business and it happens to them.

So get the stories and data straight before blanketing every abductee as lacking credibility.

And just when was it that GOD or Jesus left a finger print somewhere??
I have not see the body of Jesus, that so many hundreds of millions worship, and give thier lase cent to .

There is lots of proof that Jesus Christ and his family existed. Not just stories or guesses, but actual items and artifacts. Now whether or not he really turned water to wine, thats another story. The assumed facts change quite often, but that isn't uncommon. The world believed the fact that the Earth is flat for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

A fact is only a fact until its proven wrong.

There cannot be any credible reports of alien abduction without credible proof. Unless I am mistaken there is not one piece of credible proof.

Read earlier, 'abduction' I didn't say 'alien abduction'.

Read the official reports and come back.

UFO's rock...


Mr. Romance