Why Sales are Down (part 2) - GoFuckYourself.com

wiseoldone · 05-23-2002, 07:11 PM

In my continuing series, I am discussing events that are not obvious to eveyone, but have changed the industry and resulted in lower sales over the past several years.

In part 1, we talked about the credit card companies, and how they are rejecting more transactions.

In part 2, I will discuss (much more briefly this time - as I am trying to learn how to shorten my posts. Shit, just by discussing shortening my posts, I'm making them longer. I'm still doing it . . . )

Anyway, in part 2, I am going to discuss the proliferation of double-opt-in lists.

I must admit that when the first double-opt in email program started out, I was very impressed! It was cutting edge, and I had wished I had thought of the idea myself. (I wish I could recall the name of that program. It was created by a partner of Intertain. . . ) Anyway, at that time I made the prediction that sales in the very long-term were going to suffer as a result. I think I was right.

What happens with these email collections is that all the new, prospective customers are given a "gateway" porn membership (think gateway drug, except for real, not government BS). They haven't yet decided to put in their credit card to buy a membership just yet, but they get induced to give up their email address for some free porn by email.

I'm generalizing of course - some surfers go straight for the sale. However, we've all seen how much easier it is to get someone to give us an email address (and get paid about a buck) than to get them to give us a credit card (and make $30-$60 bucks).

The problem for people who don't run double-opt -in programs, though, is that the best newbie surfers in every niche are getting put on email lists before they buy a membership from clicking on an ad. The result is that the best prospects start getting lots of email, and they become much more likely to buy from the emails than from surfing back to a free web site and clicking on an ad.

Of course, this is a tradgedy of the commons. What I mean is that for each individual webmaster, they make more money by just going with the flow and promoting these programs. It would be best for all of us if nobody promoted the programs, but as long as a few people do, then everybody has to if they want to stay competitive.

Please don't get me wrong, I think the idea was brilliant, and it obviously works well even to this day. Still, I do believe that it is the second major reason why free web site owners are finding it harder to make sales today than in years past. (The first being the topic of my prior thread).

*** In part 3, I will again blame credit cards, but for a different reason ***

Jamie · 05-23-2002, 07:12 PM

Actually our sales are doing great. We've seen a 200% increase over last month.

Too each his own I guess.

quiet · 05-23-2002, 07:14 PM

agreed - sales are rocking. as always.

twistyneck · 05-23-2002, 07:14 PM

When do you get around to blaming lazy webmasters?

FATPad · 05-23-2002, 07:16 PM

My brief thoughts:

Crappy cookie cutter paysites that are all the same on the inside and countless stories of people signing up and being rebilled for months after they cancelled in years gone by.

Between the two we screwed ourselves.

Oh...and the obligatory EVIL TGP'S and the mirthful BIG TOURS.

Tanker · 05-23-2002, 07:22 PM

our sales are up 800 percent over this month last year

we are up 30 percent over last month!

who is not doing well?

Tanker

wiseoldone · 05-23-2002, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie
Actually our sales are doing great. We've seen a 200% increase over last month.

Congrats! Would you be willing to share how you've done it?

The impressive growth of your sales aside, though, what I'm really getting at is the much longer-term trend of comparing sales from, say, 3 years ago to today for the average webmaster.

I can say from my own experience that it was a much easier business back then, and I think it is interesting to discuss what has changed to make it harder. Obviously, I'm just throwing around my few top ideas. I'd be interested to hear other thoughts (like lazy webmasters LOL - aren't we all? Isn't that why we do this?).

quiet · 05-23-2002, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wiseoldone
Congrats! Would you be willing to share how you've done it?

no offense, but are you serious?

Quote:

I can say from my own experience that it was a much easier business back then, and I think it is interesting to discuss what has changed to make it harder.

i've seen nothing but continous growth for almost 7 years running paysites.

but that's just me ;)

05-23-2002, 07:29 PM

quiet is just ultra-cool !

Tanker · 05-23-2002, 07:30 PM

we have had only 2 months in the past 3 years that didnt grow to the next month and they just broke even

think outside the box thats all I can say and you will do well

avoid imitating everyone else so you are not selling the same thing that everyone else is

I agree with the whole cookie cutter site post above

the long rebills are still there if you provide a good unique experience and bring a lot of new stuff continuously
( by that I mean exclusive content thats true to the niche of the site)

quiet · 05-23-2002, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Equinox
quiet is just ultra-cool ! :rasta

who have you been talking to? ;)

quiet · 05-23-2002, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tanker
the long rebills are still there if you provide a good unique experience and bring a lot of new stuff continuously
( by that I mean exclusive content thats true to the niche of the site) [/B]

yes - advertising, and all things outside your paysite should reflect what's actually inside your members area. if it doesn't, good luck. if it does, but what's inside is shit, good luck.

Tanker · 05-23-2002, 07:36 PM

I like to give a lot more inside the site then we say on the outside so that they are very happy when they get all the additional material

Jamie · 05-23-2002, 07:37 PM

Quiet, Just before you retire lets do lunch.

FATPad · 05-23-2002, 07:39 PM

Big tours, man whores, and crabs!

Paul Markham · 05-23-2002, 09:20 PM

Our sales are up so much we have to employ another person.

I think the reason sales are down for a some, is the Adult Net is getting more mature, professional and competetive. Unfortunately a lot of webmasters cannot cut it in this new world.

05-23-2002, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet

who have you been talking to? ;)

The birds were singin off the roof !

insidethegame · 05-23-2002, 10:17 PM

Geee, Selling DIRECTLY to the paying customer and cutting out the cost of the middle man(Free site webmasters).Now that?s a new concept. LOLOLOL

Large companies with razor thin retail margins based on volume are feeling the pressure of increased competition so they increase direct marketing to the buyer with out having to incur the expense of a bloated sales force,any of you ever read the history of any other kind of industry at this stage of growth and competion.LOL,get a clue guys,try to think at least a few steps ahead.

Tipsy · 05-24-2002, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad

Crappy cookie cutter paysites that are all the same on the inside and countless stories of people signing up and being rebilled for months after they cancelled in years gone by.

.....are by far the worst offenders but then I started a thread on the cookie cutter thing not too long ago. I'll say it again - if I were a surfer I would not be even remotely tempted to join any of the ARS/Topbucks etc sites. Every tour on every site with most of these companies looks the same with a casual glance and is about as interesting as watching Amp's neighbours dog have a dump.

Mr.Fiction · 05-24-2002, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by insidethegame
Geee, Selling DIRECTLY to the paying customer and cutting out the cost of the middle man(Free site webmasters).Now that?s a new concept. LOLOLOL

Large companies with razor thin retail margins based on volume are feeling the pressure of increased competition so they increase direct marketing to the buyer with out having to incur the expense of a bloated sales force,any of you ever read the history of any other kind of industry at this stage of growth and competion.LOL,get a clue guys,try to think at least a few steps ahead.

Using what the original poster said, it would seem that the double opt in list owners are the new middle men. It's not like they aren't getting paid for their lists, right? There is still a middle man, it's just the list owner instead of the free site owner.

There are always middle men, by the way. In a sense, the paysites themselves are the middle men between the content brokers and the surfers. The content brokers are the middle men between the photographers and the paysites. The photographers are the middle men between the models and the content brokers. We are all middle men (or women).

Does anyone know when, what year at least, the first site appeared that gave you a free membership to a password protected site in exchange for only your confirmed email address?

pr0view · 05-24-2002, 02:42 AM

time for another "my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours" contest. oh, and yes, for an ego boost of the "my-sales-are-XXX%-up" type

wiseoldone · 05-24-2002, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr.Fiction

Does anyone know when, what year at least, the first site appeared that gave you a free membership to a password protected site in exchange for only your confirmed email address?

That development happened a long time after the first double-opt-in lists appeared. I guess it took some time for paysite owners to figure out that they could allow a surfer into a membership area by using the email as a form of payment.

The first two sites that I can remember as doing this were the 4FreeBuck group - that let surfers in for free with only an email address - almost 2 years ago now.

Before that was Purefuck.com, which let surfers in for free in exchange for an email address, but used a credit card for age-verification and never charged the card. That was probably just over 2 years ago.

Steve · 05-24-2002, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FATPad
Big tours, man whores, and crabs!

is it Friday already? woo-hoo!

05-23-2002, 07:11 PM	#1
wiseoldone Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 37	Why Sales are Down (part 2) In my continuing series, I am discussing events that are not obvious to eveyone, but have changed the industry and resulted in lower sales over the past several years. In part 1, we talked about the credit card companies, and how they are rejecting more transactions. In part 2, I will discuss (much more briefly this time - as I am trying to learn how to shorten my posts. Shit, just by discussing shortening my posts, I'm making them longer. I'm still doing it . . . ) Anyway, in part 2, I am going to discuss the proliferation of double-opt-in lists. I must admit that when the first double-opt in email program started out, I was very impressed! It was cutting edge, and I had wished I had thought of the idea myself. (I wish I could recall the name of that program. It was created by a partner of Intertain. . . ) Anyway, at that time I made the prediction that sales in the very long-term were going to suffer as a result. I think I was right. What happens with these email collections is that all the new, prospective customers are given a "gateway" porn membership (think gateway drug, except for real, not government BS). They haven't yet decided to put in their credit card to buy a membership just yet, but they get induced to give up their email address for some free porn by email. I'm generalizing of course - some surfers go straight for the sale. However, we've all seen how much easier it is to get someone to give us an email address (and get paid about a buck) than to get them to give us a credit card (and make $30-$60 bucks). The problem for people who don't run double-opt -in programs, though, is that the best newbie surfers in every niche are getting put on email lists before they buy a membership from clicking on an ad. The result is that the best prospects start getting lots of email, and they become much more likely to buy from the emails than from surfing back to a free web site and clicking on an ad. Of course, this is a tradgedy of the commons. What I mean is that for each individual webmaster, they make more money by just going with the flow and promoting these programs. It would be best for all of us if nobody promoted the programs, but as long as a few people do, then everybody has to if they want to stay competitive. Please don't get me wrong, I think the idea was brilliant, and it obviously works well even to this day. Still, I do believe that it is the second major reason why free web site owners are finding it harder to make sales today than in years past. (The first being the topic of my prior thread). * In part 3, I will again blame credit cards, but for a different reason *

05-23-2002, 07:16 PM	#5
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	My brief thoughts: Crappy cookie cutter paysites that are all the same on the inside and countless stories of people signing up and being rebilled for months after they cancelled in years gone by. Between the two we screwed ourselves. Oh...and the obligatory EVIL TGP'S and the mirthful BIG TOURS. __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a> Last edited by FATPad; 05-23-2002 at 07:32 PM..

05-23-2002, 07:22 PM	#6
Tanker Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 9,287	our sales are up 800 percent over this month last year we are up 30 percent over last month! who is not doing well? Tanker __________________ Tanker ICQ 3427575 CCBTools Now featured in the CCBill.com APP STORE

05-23-2002, 07:30 PM	#10
Tanker Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 9,287	we have had only 2 months in the past 3 years that didnt grow to the next month and they just broke even think outside the box thats all I can say and you will do well avoid imitating everyone else so you are not selling the same thing that everyone else is I agree with the whole cookie cutter site post above the long rebills are still there if you provide a good unique experience and bring a lot of new stuff continuously ( by that I mean exclusive content thats true to the niche of the site) __________________ Tanker ICQ 3427575 CCBTools Now featured in the CCBill.com APP STORE

05-23-2002, 07:36 PM	#13
Tanker Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Oakville, Ontario, Canada Posts: 9,287	I like to give a lot more inside the site then we say on the outside so that they are very happy when they get all the additional material __________________ Tanker ICQ 3427575 CCBTools Now featured in the CCBill.com APP STORE

05-23-2002, 07:12 PM	#2
Jamie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: CelebPay.com Posts: 2,517	Actually our sales are doing great. We've seen a 200% increase over last month. Too each his own I guess.

05-23-2002, 07:14 PM	#3
quiet we'll miss you our friend. RIP Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Fernie, BC Posts: 25,115	agreed - sales are rocking. as always.

05-23-2002, 07:14 PM	#4
twistyneck So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Hanging by the neck until dead. Posts: 4,660	When do you get around to blaming lazy webmasters?

05-23-2002, 07:29 PM	#9
X37375787 Guest Posts: n/a	quiet is just ultra-cool !

05-23-2002, 07:37 PM	#14
Jamie Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: CelebPay.com Posts: 2,517	Quiet, Just before you retire lets do lunch.

05-23-2002, 07:39 PM	#15
FATPad Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2001 Posts: 6,693	Big tours, man whores, and crabs! __________________ <a href="http://www.adultcontent.co.uk">Adult Content UK - Great British Content</a>

05-23-2002, 09:20 PM	#16
Paul Markham Too old to care Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: On the sofa, watching TV or doing my jigsaws. Posts: 52,943	Our sales are up so much we have to employ another person. I think the reason sales are down for a some, is the Adult Net is getting more mature, professional and competetive. Unfortunately a lot of webmasters cannot cut it in this new world. __________________ Blowout deal. 880 videos, 2,400 image sets, plus many RAW videos. $500. PM me for a deal. Skype Paulmarkham70

05-23-2002, 10:17 PM	#18
insidethegame Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 117	Geee, Selling DIRECTLY to the paying customer and cutting out the cost of the middle man(Free site webmasters).Now that?s a new concept. LOLOLOL Large companies with razor thin retail margins based on volume are feeling the pressure of increased competition so they increase direct marketing to the buyer with out having to incur the expense of a bloated sales force,any of you ever read the history of any other kind of industry at this stage of growth and competion.LOL,get a clue guys,try to think at least a few steps ahead.

05-24-2002, 02:42 AM	#21
pr0view Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Europe Posts: 270	time for another "my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours" contest. oh, and yes, for an ego boost of the "my-sales-are-XXX%-up" type __________________ Make your surfers happy on my bandwidth Need voyeur content (pictures and videos)? Hit me on ICQ 83581235