MY RANT!! Cogent Bandwidth and Hosting Economics. - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

DrGuile · 05-23-2002, 01:02 PM

but seriously, we still havent got an explanation for the OC-9 statement...

missnglnk · 05-23-2002, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth
I assumed/hoped you had more than a OC-3. But then again, I see companies EVERYDAY say they have multiple OC-3's, or a OC-192 for crying out load when all they have is a Frac or a server in colo with a 100M uplink, committed to 10M, burstable.

I wasn't accusing, don't get me wrong...I just have a hard time understanding how companies that buy pipe can sell below the companies they bought from without compromise.

Bottom line is, the tough thing about hosting/bandwidth is that it is vaporware...the end user really doesn't know what he is truly getting...

MrB

Heh, you just saw me ream out Cogent, you think I'm gonna sell bandwidth for less than my cost? We'd like to stay in business you know.

But yeah, most of the time the end-user is caught up somewhere between the background techno music or the overflashy flash animations, and decide a nice site makes up for a shitty network.

FlyingIguana · 05-23-2002, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth

Bottom line is, the tough thing about hosting/bandwidth is that it is vaporware...the end user really doesn't know what he is truly getting...

MrB

would be great if we had a webmaster organization that could check shit out like this. actually send someone out to their facilities and take a look at what they really have.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 01:07 PM

OC-9?

wired1 · 05-23-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBandwidth

Can you answer me something? What in the world is an OC-9??? I would LOVE to know! Three OC-3's do not constitute an OC-9 by the way.

OC9 = 466.56 Mb/sec

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FlyingIguana

would be great if we had a webmaster organization that could check shit out like this. actually send someone out to their facilities and take a look at what they really have.

Well, www.Boardwatch.com does a pretty decent job...but they stop at Backbone IP providers...

www.dslreports.com does a great job for DSL, but that's it (and no one is delivering DSL anymore except for the LEC's).

I haven't found anyone who 3rd parties hosting...

MrB

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 01:19 PM

Quote:

OC9 = 466.56 Mb/sec [/B]

Well, I found OC-9...spank my ass and call me Charlie...

40 Gbps - OC-768
13.27 Gbps - OC-256
10 Gbps - OC-192
4.976 Gbps - OC-96
2.488 Gbps - OC-48, STS-48
1.866 Gbps - OC-36
1.244 Gbps - OC-24
933.12 Mbps - OC-18
622.08 Mbps - OC-12, STS-12
466.56 Mbps - OC-9
155.52 Mbps - OC-3, STS-3, category 5 cable, high-speed ADSL downstream
100 Mbps - CDDI, FDDI, Fast Ethernet
51.84 Mbps - OC-1, STS-1
44.736 Mbps - T-3, DS-3 North America
34.368 Mbps - E-3 Europe
20 Mbps - Category 4 cable
16 Mbps - Token Ring LANs
10Mbps - Thin Ethernet, category 3 cable, cable modem
8.448 Mbps - E-2 Europe
6.312 Mbps - T-2, DS-2 North America
6.144 Mbps - Standard ADSL downstream
3.152 Mbps - DS-1c

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SinEmpire
Hey Dipshit Moron Retard -

No 'bitches' just lots of friends! Go Fuck Yourself!

I should be applauded for trying to get the FACTS posted on here. What's the matter, you can't handle the truth? I don't profess to be the smartest guy in town but when it comes to sincerity you'll be hard pressed to find someone who makes a more honest effort.

Because I was skeptical of the economics of their offer I picked up the phone to speak with someone that I knew to be infinitely wiser then myself in these areas. Thus, Mr. Bandwidth. I didn't call him 'out' on it because although I know an awful lot, I would never profess to be a resident expert. I'll let the person that's in the 'know' take that conversation over.

Brad

P.S. - To all you fucking whiners, the day that you post your real name in a thread or on your corporate site is when I'll start listening to you. LOL

Ok hero, I think you were already applauded for trying to get the truth out in this thread multiple times. Your initial post was great and everyone appreciated it. But chill out with the melodrama: I "can't handle the truth"? Why would I care? I'm not in the hosting business or affiliated with either of you. Apparently you can't handle the truth if it irks you this much that someone bothered to point out how cheesy your attempt to covertly punk out way2fast was.

No one is "whining" except you, your person "in the know" ended up making both you of look like jackasses because his entire post tried to discredit a company because they have 1 router named "Way2Fast0C3" and he didn't know what the fuck an oc-9 was. Yes they exist, they're 466mbps. Google for +oc-9 +bandwidth or check any of these links:

http://streamingmedialand.com/data.html
http://partner.nuspire.com/bandwidth_Scales.htm
http://www.spikeman.net/bandwidth.html
etc etc etc

If you're skeptical of someone's economics ask them how it works, don't call someone you feel is a "expert" to come talk shit on them for you and potentially ruin their business in front of hundreds of people. If I were you by this point i would be EMBARASSED to have my name or corporate logo associated with any of it.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 01:43 PM

Actually, he didn't ask me to post on it...he just asked me to read it...

Check the product books of 10 backbone ISPs and find me an OC-9...I dare ya...it might exist in the "grand scheme of things", but it is not an everyday sold product.

There again, seeing OC3 on a traceroute never constitutes all that they have, but let me reiterate...I have seen companies say they have an OC-192, and all they have is a Frac DS3 from a backbone who is tied into a 192 sonet, no backhaul...

I do have to apologize, I flamed before I did further homework...I basically did 2-3 things and went off...The Way2Fast guys in retrospect seem to have a good thing running...

Anyway...can't we all just get along

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 01:46 PM

dont take it personally, this is GFY afterall

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 01:48 PM

Good point....So go fuck yourself

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 02:04 PM

Dipshit - In case you missed it the comment about the OC-9 was just a small piece of his post. And he was wrong! Next time I see him he's buying the beer.

The you can't handle the truth comment wasn't melodrama, it was comedy. Lighten up! Ever see A Few Good Men with Nicholson and Cruise? lol

I wasn't trying to 'punk out' Way2Fast, they seem like nice people from the few interactions we've had. Based on the jist of this thread if I wanted to pick apart a host it would probably be one that uses Cogent bandwidth!

You've completely taken out of context what's going on here. Way2Fast jumped into the thread saying they'd sell 100mbit of Tier 1 bandwidth for $6500. That's pretty fucking amazing considering that there isn't a single offering anywhere on the internet to match it without being Cogent (or the like).

Suggesting that I decided to 'bash' their company is just plain off. Perhaps I should start another thread called 100 FULL megabit of blended and redundant Tier 1 bandwidth for just $6500 and see if we can't get Candid Hosting, Like Whoa, Cave Creek, and XXXWebhosting to jump in and add their two cents.

Brad

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 02:07 PM

Are we all having fun yet??

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 02:08 PM

Brad, actually, I checked and double-checked (it was pissing me off), and there IS NO SUCH THING AS AN OC-9 in bandwidth terms.

I even consulted with someone else who knows more than me, PK, and he said "NO FUCKING WAY IS THERE AN OC-9!"

Anyway, it's really no big deal at this point, LOL...it's still a shit load of fatpipe!

A new GFY'er? You better believe it! I needed something else to consume my day, since I stopped playing Popcap Piggy Poker!

I need a drink

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 02:10 PM

MrBandwidth

They might like you better around here when you tell them that you used to work for the beer companies

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 02:12 PM

With all the shit that has been going on in the Industry lately, I have actually been considering going back!

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 02:13 PM

heh, i think you're now trivializing things that weren't intended to be initially, but nothing wrong with some old fashioned PR. rather than drag on some pointless debate on semantics i'd rather just have a big ol' circle jerk though. i love you n stuff, we havings for much of humpings in mine car? danke.

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 02:15 PM

heh gfy is a great time waster for me too while i wait for my company to go out of business, the joys of venture capital.

MrBandwidth · 05-23-2002, 02:20 PM

That's the beauty of arguing sports and bandwidth...

>> I swear, it took me TWO WEEKS to quit Popcap.com PiggyPoker...it completely consumed me...it's like being addicted to amphedamines all over again

As long as the LEC's don't start running things, we'll all be just fine!

ProgGod · 05-23-2002, 02:40 PM

Well its simple, we do pay less then we sell it for. There are many little hosts out there that try and offer super low prices, and barely make a few cents over what they pay. Personally it aggreviates the heck out of me. Trying to make hosting clients understand you have to pay more for 24 hours support, our own facilities, great service, etc.

However due to our buying power, and to be quite frank, our ability to bargain. We are able to sell bandwidth super cheap. I assure you if I sell 100megs of bandwidth at $6500, even if you are using 100megs of bandwidth I am making some money. It may not be as much as if you are using 50megs, but we always make enough money to cover our costs, our employees, our support staff, and our facility fees.

The best part is you can not get any better bandwidth then we sell, especially even close to the price we sell it for...

DrGuile · 05-23-2002, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProgGod
The best part is you can not get any better bandwidth then we sell, especially even close to the price we sell it for...

hmmm, Im going to get bashed for this, but I have to ask.

bandwith from a provider who's under chapter 11 is the best bandwith there is?

just asking....

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 03:10 PM

Hmm. Proggod, can you explain exactly why you make more money if a customer paying for a 100mb feed only uses 50mb? How does this work? Do you only get charged by the amount you utilize or what?

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 03:58 PM

good point dipshit

raises the question eternal question.... if you never used it, was it there to begin with? hehe

Brad

ProgGod · 05-23-2002, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dipshit moron retard
Hmm. Proggod, can you explain exactly why you make more money if a customer paying for a 100mb feed only uses 50mb? How does this work? Do you only get charged by the amount you utilize or what?

Well its simple really, if we have 3gigs of bandwidth purchased (commited too) but we are only really are only averaging at 2gigs of bandwidth, we pay for 2gigs. Its as simple as that

Of course we dont' pay per megabit, we usually pay in 100megabit tiers or more..

Gloabl Crossing's network in my opinion and alot of other people is the best. It has the fastest routes to just about everywhere, is never oversubscribed, and has a tone of redudancy. We are buying transit on a network, regardless of if the company current financial situation. Global Crossing unlike cogent or level3 is not going anywhere. The Department of Defenses uses GBLX for half of their network on GBLX, they also have about 10 people that want to buy them.

dipshit moron retard · 05-23-2002, 05:13 PM

*waits for sinempire's comments*

Brad Mitchell · 05-23-2002, 07:29 PM

Dipshit,

I think it's pretty cool that he's able to buy bandwidth for less than $65 per megabit. Shit, I wish that was possible in the Detroit area. How's that for a comment? lol!

Brad

ProgGod · 05-23-2002, 08:28 PM

I am pretty sure I could drop you a 100meg feed in the detroit area as well.. To the closest shared building or Global Crossing location.

And believe me right now we are paying the most we every will for bandwidth, the more we sell the cheaper it will get. Without giving too much away from our business plan, keeping watching for the future of Way2Fast Networks/Hosting..

We can drop $6500 100meg lines from tier1 bandwidth to practically any major city, if you are interested hit me up on icq or aim

PS: I love the bashing, just gives me more of a chance to let everyone know about our awesome prices, and facilities

Phil21 · 05-23-2002, 09:51 PM

Mrbandwidth - While you make a lot of good points, and quite honestly they apply to almost *every* small host that started in the last year, you are incorrect about bandwidth pricing.

I've been "involved' with the networking "community" for a long time now, just fringe stuff making psuedo-friends of high school kids that grew up and are now running the networks you talk a lot about today.

I guarantee you, that you can get $50/mbit with no problem if you commit to gbit levels, from a number of Tier 1 providers. (tier1 is defined as a provider that is transitless).

Of course, we're tiny as hell comparatively to the people talking here. Lack of capital tends to stave off quick development, but we've been around for over 3 years now, and have just expanded to another city and are finally able to commit to levels that at least make us somewhat price-competetive. What we lack in capital/sales staff/whatever we make up for in knowledge however, so I'm confident we will steadily (but slowly) keep on growing.

I know for an absolute fact (been quoted from multiple providers) that you can do commits for 5mbit/sec at less than $150. Shrug.

-Phil

Truth Hurts · 05-23-2002, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ProgGod

Well its simple really, if we have 3gigs of bandwidth purchased (commited too) but we are only really are only averaging at 2gigs of bandwidth, we pay for 2gigs. Its as simple as that

Of course we dont' pay per megabit, we usually pay in 100megabit tiers or more..

Gloabl Crossing's network in my opinion and alot of other people is the best. It has the fastest routes to just about everywhere, is never oversubscribed, and has a tone of redudancy. We are buying transit on a network, regardless of if the company current financial situation. Global Crossing unlike cogent or level3 is not going anywhere. The Department of Defenses uses GBLX for half of their network on GBLX, they also have about 10 people that want to buy them.

ProGod,

You claim that you are doing 2 gigabit of bandwidth, that's quite a bit of bandwidth you got there. How do manage to do all that bandwidth on your OC9 (450mbit) link? Your traceroute?s seem to show that you only have an OC3 (155mbit) (Way2Fast3OC3.atm5-1-100.ar2.PHX1.gblx.net (64.210.21.142) [AS 3549] 68 msec 68 msec 68 msec) Can you shad some light on this?

steffie · 05-23-2002, 11:54 PM

Jeeez, I actually read all that,, didn't understand 50% BUT I read it... lol

pimpshost · 05-24-2002, 12:01 AM

OK, you guys need the lingo for cheap service:

Every server comes with RAID ->

And a Mirror Image

In addition, we have big pipes (on my motorcycle I am buying with your money), and we are located in a Class-A facility (I mean Class Act, lol).

We offer 24/7 support, that is 24 divided by 7 which is 3.4 hours of support a day.

OK, so now you know the hosting secrets, just go start your own company.

lol

kevinl · 05-24-2002, 01:09 AM

I agree with everything you say as to quality bandwidth when it is regards to a paysite. Wih conversion rates being what they are now I am not sure that paying more than a dollar per gig is cost effective. I am assuming that a lot of tgpers use the cheap bandwidth hosts and I wonder what their experiences are? How much longer does it take for a page to load on a low end host versus a high end one. Do the fulltime tgpers on here use low or high end bandwidth and why?

missnglnk · 05-24-2002, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Truth Hurts

ProGod,

You claim that you are doing 2 gigabit of bandwidth, that's quite a bit of bandwidth you got there. How do manage to do all that bandwidth on your OC9 (450mbit) link? Your traceroute?s seem to show that you only have an OC3 (155mbit) (Way2Fast3OC3.atm5-1-100.ar2.PHX1.gblx.net (64.210.21.142) [AS 3549] 68 msec 68 msec 68 msec) Can you shad some light on this?

Sheesh people. It was a small scenario he wanted you to picture, he didn't say we're using 2Gbps bandwidth (Quote: If we have 3gigs of bandwidth, keyword here being IF, go back to reading comprehension class). Also, if you scroll up, you'll see where I posted utilization rates, and the OC-9 thing was a typo by the web designer. So for the love of god calm down and go fuck yourself.

MrBandwidth · 05-24-2002, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil21
Mrbandwidth - While you make a lot of good points, and quite honestly they apply to almost *every* small host that started in the last year, you are incorrect about bandwidth pricing.

I've been "involved' with the networking "community" for a long time now, just fringe stuff making psuedo-friends of high school kids that grew up and are now running the networks you talk a lot about today.

I guarantee you, that you can get $50/mbit with no problem if you commit to gbit levels, from a number of Tier 1 providers. (tier1 is defined as a provider that is transitless).

Of course, we're tiny as hell comparatively to the people talking here. Lack of capital tends to stave off quick development, but we've been around for over 3 years now, and have just expanded to another city and are finally able to commit to levels that at least make us somewhat price-competetive. What we lack in capital/sales staff/whatever we make up for in knowledge however, so I'm confident we will steadily (but slowly) keep on growing.

I know for an absolute fact (been quoted from multiple providers) that you can do commits for 5mbit/sec at less than $150. Shrug.

-Phil

Well, I know for a fact that I have 5 product books in front of me from backbone providers, and I don't see anything under $100-figures for a GigE handoff...(that is floor pricing)

How desperate the provider is and how good the buying company is at negotiating the end-price makes all the difference...I mean, if you can get a hell of a deal now, but the company loses money on you and eventually takes a shit gets you back to step one again...

If Northpoint, Rhythms, and Covad charged $200 for DSL instead of $100, they would have 25% less clients, but still be in business...

I hope bandwidth doesn't end up like LD...that would suck MAJOR ass...

Bob

Phil21 · 05-24-2002, 08:28 AM

MrBandwidth -

You're correct in that you won't see anything near rock-bottom pricing from published pricing. I think verio has 45mbit published at $11k ;) I guarantee I can get it for far, far, less than that.

You won't be able to get worldcom, or sprint, or even att bandwidth for super-cheap, but that doesn't mean those companies are more financially viable. Worldcom carries the majority of all internet traffic, and charges a pretty penny for it. Look at their financial situation.

However, there are far more Tier1 (transitless) providers than just the huge ones you hear about. Transitless providers can sell for uber-cheap since adding more bandwidth utilization doesn't directly cost them money. It only costs them in infrastructure upgrades, no bill to their transit providers or anything. Essentially, adding a couple hundred meg to their network is "free" to them, since they won't notice it.

Kimmykim makes a good point earlier in the thread though. How valuable your business is to your upstream(s). For this reason, we buy from a semi-smallish national backbone, where we personally know a lot of the engineering staff, and our also one of their larger customers. We're still fully redundant, and we willl be adding more transit links to other providers as our usage justifies it.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is the bandwidth market has changed a lot. And their are hosts that are just interested in hosting your sites and that's it, and there are hosts that are interested in building their own network and systems so they can control the service they offer to you better. Neither is inherently better than the other, but they both have advantages and disadvantages. We're attempting the latter, slowly growing and such, but it does get frusterating to see newcomers come in, and just seemingly be a magnet for new customers just based on slightly lower pricing and a string of BS coming from them. Shrug.

I do agree cogent needs to go out of business, I think that happening will seperate the men from the boys so to speak, and cogent has done far more harm to the hosting market than good. Lowering pricing is good, but doing it below cost only harms those companies that are planning to be around long-term, and also opens the door for a lot of scam artists out to make a quick buck while the fad lasts.

peace,

-Phil

MrBandwidth · 05-24-2002, 08:36 AM

Great points...

I have even seen rumblings of a 45M full DS3 going in for around $6k plus telco access...

Word to the wise, don't ever buy list

Bob

ProgGod · 05-24-2002, 12:48 PM

Just so we all understand, the actual cost for bandwidth for any tier1 provider is $0. Once the fiber is run, and paid for there really are virtually no costs.

Overall they may need to make enough to pay for their staff and equipment costs, but they could easilly add another customer without adding virtually any costs to their bottom line.

It comes down to how much business you are going to do with the company, we do and are going to do ALOT of business with Global Crossing. We are buying transit from them, and transport. They know this, and it is directly reflected in our pricing.

reliable · 05-24-2002, 08:09 PM

This in response to SinEmpire's post. We use Cogent as one of our upstream providers. But unlike some hosting company's, Cogent is not our only upstream provider. We also have Verio, Qwest, and Limelight (Williams) connections. Also we are in contract negotiations for our own public and private peering at PAIX.

We have an internal policy to never exceed 50% utilization of any circuit, (even our gigabit circuits with Cogent and Verio) to assure that we will always have connectivity in the event of a failure or upstream bankruptcy. Our network engineer has worked with Cogent to identify routing/latency issues and has made BGP policy changes to help route traffic around those trouble areas with Cogent's Netrail.

Cogent has had its share of growing pains with their peering, but with their recent acquisition of PSI.net, they have acquired much needed additional peering points to other networks. Another plus for Cogent is that they have a nationwide 80 gigabit/sec backbone. Some of the older networks like Verio, are still at OC-48 ( 2 gigabit) and OC-192 (10 gigabit) levels. With us, since we have multiple gigabit connections, a network with an OC-48 backbone doesn't cut it anymore.

How long will Cogent be around? Who knows. But one thing is for sure, Cogent has caused every network provider out there to re-evaluate their pricing structure, and that has benefited everyone.

Best Regards,
Reliablehosting.com / XXXWebhosting.com Technical Department

VeriSexy · 05-25-2002, 12:12 AM

Good to hear good things from a webhosting company that uses Cogent. I think think the ones that bash Cogent are the ones that are too far away to get Cogent access.

TheSpaceBulldog · 05-25-2002, 12:58 AM

Long thread

Brad Mitchell · 05-25-2002, 10:25 AM

Nice post reliable!! And I have heard from many of your customers that they are very satisfied

Brad

Brad Mitchell · 10-05-2005, 06:18 PM

<snicker>

Bump, it's 2005 now! LOL God damn, I can't believe how expensive bandwidth used to be. On all levels, thanks Cogent for driving the prices of other providers down over the last 3+ years.

Muhahah

Brad

Snake Doctor · 10-04-2008, 04:35 PM

I'm bumping this thread to prove my point that Brad's ranting about Alphared today is pretty much identical to his ranting about cogent and hosts that used them in 2002.

Cogent didn't go bankrupt and prices didn't go back up....instead they kept falling like a drunk guy walking through an oil slick.....and odds are they will continue to do that.

Pardon me if I don't believe the predictions about bandwidth pricing at $4/meg being a temporary thing that will only last until the people offering it go bankrupt.

marketsmart · 10-04-2008, 04:44 PM

i can get level 3 for $6 a meg with a 10 gig commit...

95% billing plus over subscribing would allow me to make a profit on $6 a meg all day long..

some people like to justify a higher price and i dont blame them.. why sell a chicken for $6 if someone is willing to pay $20....

i agree with brad that the b/w whores have ruined the pricing model, but like the tubes, shit comes along that makes you have to change with the times...

but, for brad or anyone else to say that you cant turn a profit on $6 a meg using good b/w and providing good service is bullshit...

there are so many other factors that make a hosting company operate in the red or the black...

Iron Fist · 10-04-2008, 04:58 PM

The masterminds of hosting are delivering in here today

Excellent read everyone!

MaDalton · 10-04-2008, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brad Mitchell

Flying Iguana - I should note that your host has good bandwidth, hardware and real network professionals

Like Whoa is quality!

Brad

hmmmmmm.......

nobodies perfect - hehe

Phil21 · 10-04-2008, 10:20 PM

Man.. I posted here in 2002?

*hides*

Good trip down memory lane though. I wonder how naive I'll think I was looking back to this moment 6 years from now

WWC · 10-05-2008, 12:44 AM

In todays fast changing world on how people do business online, even hosting game will change and be effected. The way i see it, the internet is becoming more like TV ( free broadcast mostly and revenue from ads ) hence there will be more demand for all types of bandwidth. You always need both type of bandwidth, " cheap " and " quality " . Some traffic must go through " cheap " bw and some traffic must go through " quality " connection bandwidth.

Barefootsies · 10-05-2008, 02:11 AM

Ranting Toejo

JFK · 10-05-2008, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barefootsies

Ranting Toejo

this rant has legs

05-23-2002, 01:02 PM	#101
DrGuile Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,025	but seriously, we still havent got an explanation for the OC-9 statement... __________________ LiveBucks / Privatefeeds - Giving you money since 1999 Up to 50% Commission! 25% Webmaster Referal Powered by Gamma

05-23-2002, 02:04 PM	#112
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Dipshit - In case you missed it the comment about the OC-9 was just a small piece of his post. And he was wrong! Next time I see him he's buying the beer. The you can't handle the truth comment wasn't melodrama, it was comedy. Lighten up! Ever see A Few Good Men with Nicholson and Cruise? lol I wasn't trying to 'punk out' Way2Fast, they seem like nice people from the few interactions we've had. Based on the jist of this thread if I wanted to pick apart a host it would probably be one that uses Cogent bandwidth! You've completely taken out of context what's going on here. Way2Fast jumped into the thread saying they'd sell 100mbit of Tier 1 bandwidth for $6500. That's pretty fucking amazing considering that there isn't a single offering anywhere on the internet to match it without being Cogent (or the like). Suggesting that I decided to 'bash' their company is just plain off. Perhaps I should start another thread called 100 FULL megabit of blended and redundant Tier 1 bandwidth for just $6500 and see if we can't get Candid Hosting, Like Whoa, Cave Creek, and XXXWebhosting to jump in and add their two cents. Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999 Last edited by Brad Mitchell; 05-23-2002 at 02:05 PM..

05-23-2002, 02:07 PM	#113
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Are we all having fun yet?? __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-23-2002, 02:10 PM	#115
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	MrBandwidth They might like you better around here when you tell them that you used to work for the beer companies __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-23-2002, 02:40 PM	#120
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	Well its simple, we do pay less then we sell it for. There are many little hosts out there that try and offer super low prices, and barely make a few cents over what they pay. Personally it aggreviates the heck out of me. Trying to make hosting clients understand you have to pay more for 24 hours support, our own facilities, great service, etc. However due to our buying power, and to be quite frank, our ability to bargain. We are able to sell bandwidth super cheap. I assure you if I sell 100megs of bandwidth at $6500, even if you are using 100megs of bandwidth I am making some money. It may not be as much as if you are using 50megs, but we always make enough money to cover our costs, our employees, our support staff, and our facility fees. The best part is you can not get any better bandwidth then we sell, especially even close to the price we sell it for... __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected] Last edited by ProgGod; 05-23-2002 at 02:47 PM..

05-23-2002, 01:07 PM	#104
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	OC-9?

05-23-2002, 01:43 PM	#109
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Actually, he didn't ask me to post on it...he just asked me to read it... Check the product books of 10 backbone ISPs and find me an OC-9...I dare ya...it might exist in the "grand scheme of things", but it is not an everyday sold product. There again, seeing OC3 on a traceroute never constitutes all that they have, but let me reiterate...I have seen companies say they have an OC-192, and all they have is a Frac DS3 from a backbone who is tied into a 192 sonet, no backhaul... I do have to apologize, I flamed before I did further homework...I basically did 2-3 things and went off...The Way2Fast guys in retrospect seem to have a good thing running... Anyway...can't we all just get along

05-23-2002, 01:46 PM	#110
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	dont take it personally, this is GFY afterall

05-23-2002, 01:48 PM	#111
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Good point....So go fuck yourself

05-23-2002, 02:08 PM	#114
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Brad, actually, I checked and double-checked (it was pissing me off), and there IS NO SUCH THING AS AN OC-9 in bandwidth terms. I even consulted with someone else who knows more than me, PK, and he said "NO FUCKING WAY IS THERE AN OC-9!" Anyway, it's really no big deal at this point, LOL...it's still a shit load of fatpipe! A new GFY'er? You better believe it! I needed something else to consume my day, since I stopped playing Popcap Piggy Poker! I need a drink

05-23-2002, 02:12 PM	#116
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	With all the shit that has been going on in the Industry lately, I have actually been considering going back!

05-23-2002, 02:13 PM	#117
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	heh, i think you're now trivializing things that weren't intended to be initially, but nothing wrong with some old fashioned PR. rather than drag on some pointless debate on semantics i'd rather just have a big ol' circle jerk though. i love you n stuff, we havings for much of humpings in mine car? danke.

05-23-2002, 02:15 PM	#118
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	heh gfy is a great time waster for me too while i wait for my company to go out of business, the joys of venture capital.

05-23-2002, 02:20 PM	#119
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	That's the beauty of arguing sports and bandwidth... >> I swear, it took me TWO WEEKS to quit Popcap.com PiggyPoker...it completely consumed me...it's like being addicted to amphedamines all over again As long as the LEC's don't start running things, we'll all be just fine!

05-23-2002, 03:10 PM	#122
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	Hmm. Proggod, can you explain exactly why you make more money if a customer paying for a 100mb feed only uses 50mb? How does this work? Do you only get charged by the amount you utilize or what?

05-23-2002, 03:58 PM	#123
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	good point dipshit raises the question eternal question.... if you never used it, was it there to begin with? hehe Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-23-2002, 05:13 PM	#125
dipshit moron retard Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 667	waits for sinempire's comments

05-23-2002, 07:29 PM	#126
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Dipshit, I think it's pretty cool that he's able to buy bandwidth for less than $65 per megabit. Shit, I wish that was possible in the Detroit area. How's that for a comment? lol! Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

05-23-2002, 08:28 PM	#127
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	I am pretty sure I could drop you a 100meg feed in the detroit area as well.. To the closest shared building or Global Crossing location. And believe me right now we are paying the most we every will for bandwidth, the more we sell the cheaper it will get. Without giving too much away from our business plan, keeping watching for the future of Way2Fast Networks/Hosting.. We can drop $6500 100meg lines from tier1 bandwidth to practically any major city, if you are interested hit me up on icq or aim PS: I love the bashing, just gives me more of a chance to let everyone know about our awesome prices, and facilities __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-23-2002, 09:51 PM	#128
Phil21 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ICQ: 25285313 Posts: 993	Mrbandwidth - While you make a lot of good points, and quite honestly they apply to almost every small host that started in the last year, you are incorrect about bandwidth pricing. I've been "involved' with the networking "community" for a long time now, just fringe stuff making psuedo-friends of high school kids that grew up and are now running the networks you talk a lot about today. I guarantee you, that you can get $50/mbit with no problem if you commit to gbit levels, from a number of Tier 1 providers. (tier1 is defined as a provider that is transitless). Of course, we're tiny as hell comparatively to the people talking here. Lack of capital tends to stave off quick development, but we've been around for over 3 years now, and have just expanded to another city and are finally able to commit to levels that at least make us somewhat price-competetive. What we lack in capital/sales staff/whatever we make up for in knowledge however, so I'm confident we will steadily (but slowly) keep on growing. I know for an absolute fact (been quoted from multiple providers) that you can do commits for 5mbit/sec at less than $150. Shrug. -Phil

05-23-2002, 11:54 PM	#130
steffie Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Somewhere in the Mountains, far far away Posts: 2,422	Jeeez, I actually read all that,, didn't understand 50% BUT I read it... lol __________________ Partying since '96 and not going anywhere Anna's Dorm

05-24-2002, 12:01 AM	#131
pimpshost Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,052	OK, you guys need the lingo for cheap service: Every server comes with RAID -> And a Mirror Image In addition, we have big pipes (on my motorcycle I am buying with your money), and we are located in a Class-A facility (I mean Class Act, lol). We offer 24/7 support, that is 24 divided by 7 which is 3.4 hours of support a day. OK, so now you know the hosting secrets, just go start your own company. lol __________________ Jason (Vegas King Condo) Cell 702-371-8941 Web LuxuryinLasVegas.com - High Rise Condos

05-24-2002, 01:09 AM	#132
kevinl Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: US Posts: 261	I agree with everything you say as to quality bandwidth when it is regards to a paysite. Wih conversion rates being what they are now I am not sure that paying more than a dollar per gig is cost effective. I am assuming that a lot of tgpers use the cheap bandwidth hosts and I wonder what their experiences are? How much longer does it take for a page to load on a low end host versus a high end one. Do the fulltime tgpers on here use low or high end bandwidth and why? __________________ kevinl

05-24-2002, 08:28 AM	#135
Phil21 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ICQ: 25285313 Posts: 993	MrBandwidth - You're correct in that you won't see anything near rock-bottom pricing from published pricing. I think verio has 45mbit published at $11k ;) I guarantee I can get it for far, far, less than that. You won't be able to get worldcom, or sprint, or even att bandwidth for super-cheap, but that doesn't mean those companies are more financially viable. Worldcom carries the majority of all internet traffic, and charges a pretty penny for it. Look at their financial situation. However, there are far more Tier1 (transitless) providers than just the huge ones you hear about. Transitless providers can sell for uber-cheap since adding more bandwidth utilization doesn't directly cost them money. It only costs them in infrastructure upgrades, no bill to their transit providers or anything. Essentially, adding a couple hundred meg to their network is "free" to them, since they won't notice it. Kimmykim makes a good point earlier in the thread though. How valuable your business is to your upstream(s). For this reason, we buy from a semi-smallish national backbone, where we personally know a lot of the engineering staff, and our also one of their larger customers. We're still fully redundant, and we willl be adding more transit links to other providers as our usage justifies it. I guess the point I'm trying to make is the bandwidth market has changed a lot. And their are hosts that are just interested in hosting your sites and that's it, and there are hosts that are interested in building their own network and systems so they can control the service they offer to you better. Neither is inherently better than the other, but they both have advantages and disadvantages. We're attempting the latter, slowly growing and such, but it does get frusterating to see newcomers come in, and just seemingly be a magnet for new customers just based on slightly lower pricing and a string of BS coming from them. Shrug. I do agree cogent needs to go out of business, I think that happening will seperate the men from the boys so to speak, and cogent has done far more harm to the hosting market than good. Lowering pricing is good, but doing it below cost only harms those companies that are planning to be around long-term, and also opens the door for a lot of scam artists out to make a quick buck while the fad lasts. peace, -Phil

05-24-2002, 08:36 AM	#136
MrBandwidth Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Detroit Posts: 191	Great points... I have even seen rumblings of a 45M full DS3 going in for around $6k plus telco access... Word to the wise, don't ever buy list Bob

05-24-2002, 12:48 PM	#137
ProgGod Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Glendale, AZ Posts: 155	Just so we all understand, the actual cost for bandwidth for any tier1 provider is $0. Once the fiber is run, and paid for there really are virtually no costs. Overall they may need to make enough to pay for their staff and equipment costs, but they could easilly add another customer without adding virtually any costs to their bottom line. It comes down to how much business you are going to do with the company, we do and are going to do ALOT of business with Global Crossing. We are buying transit from them, and transport. They know this, and it is directly reflected in our pricing. __________________ Premium Tier1 Hosting/bandwidth $65/megabit: $.20/gig Way2Fast Hosting ICQ: 69658209, AIM: ProgGod123, Email: [email protected]

05-24-2002, 08:09 PM	#138
reliable Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Plantation Florida Posts: 243	This in response to SinEmpire's post. We use Cogent as one of our upstream providers. But unlike some hosting company's, Cogent is not our only upstream provider. We also have Verio, Qwest, and Limelight (Williams) connections. Also we are in contract negotiations for our own public and private peering at PAIX. We have an internal policy to never exceed 50% utilization of any circuit, (even our gigabit circuits with Cogent and Verio) to assure that we will always have connectivity in the event of a failure or upstream bankruptcy. Our network engineer has worked with Cogent to identify routing/latency issues and has made BGP policy changes to help route traffic around those trouble areas with Cogent's Netrail. Cogent has had its share of growing pains with their peering, but with their recent acquisition of PSI.net, they have acquired much needed additional peering points to other networks. Another plus for Cogent is that they have a nationwide 80 gigabit/sec backbone. Some of the older networks like Verio, are still at OC-48 ( 2 gigabit) and OC-192 (10 gigabit) levels. With us, since we have multiple gigabit connections, a network with an OC-48 backbone doesn't cut it anymore. How long will Cogent be around? Who knows. But one thing is for sure, Cogent has caused every network provider out there to re-evaluate their pricing structure, and that has benefited everyone. Best Regards, Reliablehosting.com / XXXWebhosting.com Technical Department

05-25-2002, 12:12 AM	#139
VeriSexy Join The Royal Family Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 25,463	Good to hear good things from a webhosting company that uses Cogent. I think think the ones that bash Cogent are the ones that are too far away to get Cogent access. __________________ Looking for a KICK ASS TEEN SPONSOR? Check out ROYAL CASH - THE KING OF TEEN! Incredible webmaster tools FHGs, Morphing Blog and RSS Feeds, Embedded FLV & WMV Videos. With TOP RATIO Sites like TeenStarsOnly.com - Earn $$ with our New Site & Bonus Payouts!! ATMovs.com \| iTeenVideo.com \| TeenSexMovs.com \| TeenSexMania.com

05-25-2002, 12:58 AM	#140
TheSpaceBulldog Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Inside a 40oz of Budweizer Posts: 1,103	Long thread __________________ #RememberYourRoots #AaronMForGFYHOF

05-25-2002, 10:25 AM	#141
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	Nice post reliable!! And I have heard from many of your customers that they are very satisfied Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

10-05-2005, 06:18 PM	#142
Brad Mitchell Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Southfield, MI Posts: 9,813	<snicker> Bump, it's 2005 now! LOL God damn, I can't believe how expensive bandwidth used to be. On all levels, thanks Cogent for driving the prices of other providers down over the last 3+ years. Muhahah Brad __________________ President at MojoHost \| brad at mojohost dot com \| Skype MojoHostBrad 71 industry awards for hosting and professional excellence since 1999

10-04-2008, 04:35 PM	#143
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	I'm bumping this thread to prove my point that Brad's ranting about Alphared today is pretty much identical to his ranting about cogent and hosts that used them in 2002. Cogent didn't go bankrupt and prices didn't go back up....instead they kept falling like a drunk guy walking through an oil slick.....and odds are they will continue to do that. Pardon me if I don't believe the predictions about bandwidth pricing at $4/meg being a temporary thing that will only last until the people offering it go bankrupt. __________________ sig too big

10-04-2008, 04:44 PM	#144
marketsmart HOMICIDAL TROLL KILLER Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sunnybrook Institution for the Criminally Insane Posts: 20,419	i can get level 3 for $6 a meg with a 10 gig commit... 95% billing plus over subscribing would allow me to make a profit on $6 a meg all day long.. some people like to justify a higher price and i dont blame them.. why sell a chicken for $6 if someone is willing to pay $20.... i agree with brad that the b/w whores have ruined the pricing model, but like the tubes, shit comes along that makes you have to change with the times... but, for brad or anyone else to say that you cant turn a profit on $6 a meg using good b/w and providing good service is bullshit... there are so many other factors that make a hosting company operate in the red or the black...

10-04-2008, 04:58 PM	#145
Iron Fist Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 23,400	The masterminds of hosting are delivering in here today Excellent read everyone! __________________ i like waffles

10-04-2008, 10:20 PM	#147
Phil21 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: ICQ: 25285313 Posts: 993	Man.. I posted here in 2002? hides Good trip down memory lane though. I wonder how naive I'll think I was looking back to this moment 6 years from now __________________ Quality affordable hosting.