Do designers get to complain back?

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  • MarkTiarra
    Confirmed User
    • Aug 2002
    • 3833

    #1

    Do designers get to complain back?

    With all the crap being slung around this week for me and others in the design game I just wanna say this and get it off my chest:


    There's a million and one designers out there and I'm sure you've all shared some of the following...

    Sometimes you get creativly stuck and although you can make something once you have the idea pretty quickly... sometimes getting a good idea takes a few days. What designer hasn't missed a deadline on rare occasion because of creative block?

    Who hasn't had a client that no matter how many good designs you make them, they just won't like it or even try it? They either had something in mind that they can't find a way to communicate to you or they did their own work before and their ego won't let them accept something from outside themselves.

    Who hasn't had a client (especially non-adult) who doesn't want to spend more than $500 and wants a big site that has all the bells and whistles and even after you explain what you can deliver for $500, still is upset that their site doesn't have everything that a huge corporate site has? Shit I even had one that asked for a refund because he couldn't get his FTP password to work and thought it was a design issue!

    These things and more happen but if you're good you do 100 jobs and maybe they only happen one or two times out of that. I thnk I've been fortunate in that I've always done extra work for people and I have attracted mostly good honest clients like Local G, Max Cash, Pornholio, Wasteland, Janey, etc... people who understand the value of your work and appreciate it when you go that extra mile for them.

    Anyway I thought with the tone of the posts regarding designers lately I should wonk a little and give ya'll an opportunity to add your commiseration. =]

    Retired Pornosticator
  • XXXPaysiteDesign
    Confirmed User
    • Mar 2002
    • 2201

    #2
    Preach on brotha.
    SIG TOO BIG! Maximum 120x60 button and no more than 3 text lines of DEFAULT SIZE and COLOR. Unless your sig is for a GFY top banner sponsor, then you may use a 624x80 instead of a 120x60.

    Comment

    • Gary
      Confirmed User
      • Aug 2001
      • 6110

      #3
      Customer is always right

      When i hire some kid from Uganda to make me a 12 page paysite for 20 dollars, i dont care if he has to spend 2 years getting it right.

      Up to 35$ per join...!

      Comment

      • sextoyking
        Confirmed User
        • Dec 2001
        • 6034

        #4
        Hey Mark,

        Yeh your post is pretty true.

        With so many projects going on all the time at webinc.com, we do once in awhile run into issues that have to be dealt with.

        We have had mabey 3 customers at of hundreds and hundreds that we could not make happy at all. I mean changes, more changes, etc, etc. So hey, as our policy is customer service is #1, we had to either refund there money, or make a whole new design for something else for them.

        99.9% of the time, all of our customers are happy the first time around.

        Have we had delays in our sched, sure. like any other big design company, problems do arrise that you didn't expect. that is why our project manager Peter tries to keep every customer on a tight sched. if possible. With a team of 9 designers, that is the only way we can make sure everyone is happy, and I don't have a nervous breakdown))

        peace

        todd
        ICQ: 52344098
        --------------------------------------
        50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

        Comment

        • SetTheWorldonFire
          Confirmed User
          • Feb 2002
          • 7444

          #5
          I run my site by myself. there only so much I or any one designer can do in a day. I always let my clients know if there is going to be a set back. I have'nt missed a deadline yet tho. If you can't reach the deadline in time and are worried about designers block, then you should'nt be designing. designers should already calculate how long a site takes. That's an advantage that experienced designers or inhouse design firms have.

          As far as clients thing goes... everytime i get one it's always a unique client. never the same. It's a challenge you just have to meet in order to stay on top of your game.

          personally... I love this game.
          www.STWOFDesign.com
          hit me up on icq 154206276 or Skype: JaimeGizzle

          Comment

          • archer
            Confirmed User
            • Jul 2002
            • 1721

            #6
            there's no question that some peope are just assholes who'll never be pleased with whatever you do.

            I remember hearing about a store that was going out of business(don't know if this is an urban legend or not) and what with the stress of all this management had official 'bag the vulture days' where salespeople could each say what they really thought if a customer was being an asshole.

            Sometimes, the customer just isn't right.
            Looking to promote uncut cock?
            Check out Uncut Cash. It rocks.

            Comment

            • Voodoo
              ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠
              • Sep 2002
              • 10600

              #7
              SOLUTION:
              I've had a few clients who no matter what I did, they just weren't happy with the end result. I think it has to do with what Mark said... They have something in mind, and cannot figure out how to express it.

              Here's what ya do...
              First things first... Designer's time is valuable. Time to redo, change, make this greener, move this logo over 3 pixels... It's a bitch, and it takes a TON of time.

              A "Review Session" is a designated time/appointment 20-30 minutes, where the client can "review" the project, and make changes if need be.

              In your package deals, offer 2 or 3 "Review Sessions" as part of the package. The client can purchase additional "Review Sessions" at your going rate per hour.

              It's simple, and it will keep the clients focused on the important aspects of the project, and not making any unnecessary changes.

              This is what I've done for a while, and it seems to work well.

              Just my

              "I'm selflessly supporting the common good, but only coincidentally looking out for No.1."

              Comment

              • Jakke PNG
                ex-TeenGodFather
                • Nov 2001
                • 20306

                #8
                I love all my clients. I have no problems at all. They're all superb, and I want to give them big discounts because they also smell nice.
                ..and I'm off.

                Comment

                • MarkTiarra
                  Confirmed User
                  • Aug 2002
                  • 3833

                  #9
                  Good post Voodoo. I was going to say that we miss deadlined sometimes because of slow review process too. Your post points out something good... how many designers in this biz work with a contract? In the non-adult side we usually have paperwork showing deliverable times and auther edits/revisions, etc... There is a process by which people sign off on work and you go from there so you don't get into unneeded delays. Clients also won't drag their heels as much when they have a contract saying they have x days to review and approve.

                  Maybe what we ought to do is follow in the footsteps of the Graphic Design Guild and put up some boler plate contracts for people to use and guidelines. They even go so far as to recommend pricing guidelins based on current industry averages.

                  Retired Pornosticator

                  Comment

                  • Brujah
                    Beer Money Baron
                    • Jan 2001
                    • 22157

                    #10
                    Originally posted by MarkTiarra
                    Who hasn't had a client that no matter how many good designs you make them, they just won't like it or even try it? They either had something in mind that they can't find a way to communicate to you or they did their own work before and their ego won't let them accept something from outside themselves.
                    Man oh man this is ME! Completely, Me. I need to know how to communicate better to a designer what I want. Any suggestions or tips on doing that ?

                    Comment

                    • MarkTiarra
                      Confirmed User
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 3833

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Brujah


                      Man oh man this is ME! Completely, Me. I need to know how to communicate better to a designer what I want. Any suggestions or tips on doing that ?
                      Recently I have found the best way to do this is to show them a few sample URLs and point out what about those urls that you specifically like. It's hard even as a designer to get what's in your head out sometimes. You have to know your tools (Photoshop usually) REALLY well to go from vision to screen. Now you, as a client, trying to go from vision, to words to someone else's vision to screen. Very tough!

                      Retired Pornosticator

                      Comment

                      • MarkTiarra
                        Confirmed User
                        • Aug 2002
                        • 3833

                        #12
                        As to the comment "the customer is always right." I agree that 99.9% of the time you have to live by this credo. There are people though who will take advantage of you to the point where it hurts your company very badly. I think this is why the contract for every job is a good idea: A) Protect you. B) Protect your client too (contract states what they can do if you miss deliverables, etc...).

                        Retired Pornosticator

                        Comment

                        • DX
                          Feed me coffee.
                          • Sep 2001
                          • 1128

                          #13
                          Originally posted by MarkTiarra
                          [B]With all the crap being slung around this week for me and others in the design game I just wanna say this and get it off my chest:

                          Don't let serge's little attack on you get you down,
                          Serge is stuck in a mold he entered into 6 years ago, and doesn't know any other way.

                          There's a million and one designers out there and I'm sure you've all shared some of the following...
                          To bad 99.9% of them do nothing more than clone
                          someone elses style. Most of them don't realize that making
                          a pretty design is the easy part, making it sell is where
                          the real work comes in to play.

                          Sometimes you get creativly stuck and although you can make something once you have the idea pretty quickly... sometimes getting a good idea takes a few days. What designer hasn't missed a deadline on rare occasion because of creative block?
                          Happens to me all the time.
                          I've Been doing this longer than most, I've seen
                          a million and one designs, and another million and one
                          variations on those designs...
                          trying to be original, while still maintaining the
                          saleability aspect can really be frustrating at times.

                          Who hasn't had a client that no matter how many good designs you make them, they just won't like it or even try it? They either had something in mind that they can't find a way to communicate to you or they did their own work before and their ego won't let them accept something from outside themselves.
                          With one exception, I've been pretty lucky in this regard.
                          Probably because I'm one of the slower designers out there.
                          I put in a lot of time studying and researching various trends
                          before I'll even open up my graphics apps.
                          This has probably hurt my chances with many clients,
                          but it has helped in the long run with clients I've been working
                          with for many years.

                          Who hasn't had a client (especially non-adult) who doesn't want to spend more than $500 and wants a big site that has all the bells and whistles and even after you explain what you can deliver for $500, still is upset that their site doesn't have everything that a huge corporate site has? Shit I even had one that asked for a refund because he couldn't get his FTP password to work and thought it was a design issue!
                          Try to avoid people with tiny budgets altogether.
                          Anyone willing to skimp on the packaging or settle for a clone probably doesn't really have much of a clue how to run a successful paysite in the first place, so they're more than likely going to be a problem to work with.

                          I've been fortunate in that I've always done extra work for people and I have attracted mostly good honest clients like Local G, Max Cash, Pornholio, Wasteland, Janey, etc... people who understand the value of your work and appreciate it when you go that extra mile for them.
                          Exactly.
                          If you do good work for people that know what they're doing, they will come back, over and over. Even if you're more expensive then the next guy. No need to fix what isn't broken, even if it is to save a few bucks.

                          Comment

                          • SetTheWorldonFire
                            Confirmed User
                            • Feb 2002
                            • 7444

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Brujah


                            Man oh man this is ME! Completely, Me. I need to know how to communicate better to a designer what I want. Any suggestions or tips on doing that ?
                            details... details... did I mention details yet. also, make sure you provide all info, content, and photos(key to design) needed. Give em a bunch of shit so he has something to work with.

                            If you don't provide all the vital info then you are asking for lots of process time when they should be designing something wonderful.
                            www.STWOFDesign.com
                            hit me up on icq 154206276 or Skype: JaimeGizzle

                            Comment

                            • MarkTiarra
                              Confirmed User
                              • Aug 2002
                              • 3833

                              #15
                              Hey DX, thanks for the detailed response. =] At least we have a CONSTRUCTIVE post happening on GFY here. ::gasp::

                              Retired Pornosticator

                              Comment

                              • MarkTiarra
                                Confirmed User
                                • Aug 2002
                                • 3833

                                #16
                                DX said:
                                Happens to me all the time.
                                I've Been doing this longer than most, I've seen
                                a million and one designs, and another million and one
                                variations on those designs...
                                trying to be original, while still maintaining the
                                saleability aspect can really be frustrating at times.


                                --

                                Hell's yeah! It gets tough here too because we offer that conversion/retention guarantee and that means certain elements HAVE to be done in certain ways to maintain those numbers. Ther are only so many variations you can use before you stray so far that it doesn't make money.

                                Retired Pornosticator

                                Comment

                                • [The Leader]
                                  Confirmed User
                                  • Oct 2002
                                  • 1026

                                  #17
                                  haha, don't get me started on non adult design customers. When you get a clueless client, it's not worth your time. I owned a mainsteam design firm years and years ago, we had this one client who was the main reason I got out of it and went into the casino biz. (God bless him, now that I think about it). He was a smart businessman, but totally ignorant when it came to the web. Anyway, he was a friend of a friend who ran several extablished offline businesses in the city where I live. I gave him an insane price because I knew him, $450 + $15/month hosting or something. I did the site ontime, and he was happy with it. Then he asked me to do another site for him, keep in mind I was always paid after the client got the work. This one was just a redo of a site he already had, for another of his businesses. I finished the re-design in a couple days. It was a .ca domain, and despite dozens of e-mails and phone calls, I could not get internic.ca, the worlds most usless registar, to change the namesevers. Anyway long story long he was so pissed at me about this, he hired another designer/host for the first site, and badmouthed me to all his business qssociates. He called me almost every day, blaiming me for everything, even though I clearly explained the problem to him and showed him the finished design. Funny thing, the site in question is still not working.
                                  <br>
                                  <embed src="http://www.bigleaguebetting.com/ph.swf?http://www.prohosters.com" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="120" height="60" menu="false" quality="high"><br>

                                  Comment

                                  • MarkTiarra
                                    Confirmed User
                                    • Aug 2002
                                    • 3833

                                    #18
                                    Oh lord we all have a story like that. =] My guy with the FTP is the one that made me nuts!

                                    Originally posted by [The Leader]
                                    haha, don't get me started on non adult design customers. When you get a clueless client, it's not worth your time. I owned a mainsteam design firm years and years ago, we had this one client who was the main reason I got out of it and went into the casino biz. (God bless him, now that I think about it). He was a smart businessman, but totally ignorant when it came to the web. Anyway, he was a friend of a friend who ran several extablished offline businesses in the city where I live. I gave him an insane price because I knew him, $450 + $15/month hosting or something. I did the site ontime, and he was happy with it. Then he asked me to do another site for him, keep in mind I was always paid after the client got the work. This one was just a redo of a site he already had, for another of his businesses. I finished the re-design in a couple days. It was a .ca domain, and despite dozens of e-mails and phone calls, I could not get internic.ca, the worlds most usless registar, to change the namesevers. Anyway long story long he was so pissed at me about this, he hired another designer/host for the first site, and badmouthed me to all his business qssociates. He called me almost every day, blaiming me for everything, even though I clearly explained the problem to him and showed him the finished design. Funny thing, the site in question is still not working.

                                    Retired Pornosticator

                                    Comment

                                    • sextoyking
                                      Confirmed User
                                      • Dec 2001
                                      • 6034

                                      #19
                                      Mabey in the mainstream world there is a need for contracts, but in adult design, unless it's mabey over a 100k project or something, no contract is needed.

                                      When a company calls or emails me, we have done work before, and they say todd I need to get 30 new sites sched in asap.

                                      I say ok, get your webmasters to get all the info / content to our project manager, and it's done. I get off the phone, send them there quote, that is all that is needed from us.

                                      there is bad clients out there of course, we have had a few clients that make a 1 day job turn into 3-4. just can never satisfy them. so we finish them up, and decide if we want to do more work for them.

                                      Good thread as mark said.
                                      ICQ: 52344098
                                      --------------------------------------
                                      50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

                                      Comment

                                      • sextoyking
                                        Confirmed User
                                        • Dec 2001
                                        • 6034

                                        #20
                                        Mark,

                                        let's don't get started on the Conversion / retention Guarantee thing ok.

                                        This is an old tactic / thread. No One can guarantee anything. Depends on so many things, i.e. traffic, etc.

                                        Sure you can do 1/10,000, but come on..

                                        let's be realistic.

                                        Todd
                                        -----------------------

                                        Hell's yeah! It gets tough here too because we offer that conversion/retention guarantee and that means certain elements HAVE to be done in certain ways to maintain those numbers. Ther are only so many variations you can use before you stray so far that it doesn't make money.
                                        ICQ: 52344098
                                        --------------------------------------
                                        50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

                                        Comment

                                        • Funkito
                                          Registered User
                                          • Oct 2002
                                          • 92

                                          #21
                                          Man oh man this is ME! Completely, Me. I need to know how to communicate better to a designer what I want. Any suggestions or tips on doing that ?
                                          Examples of sites you like. But not just websites. Album covers, photographs, things that get you excited. Even songs can describe the feeling tone a client wants and can spark the creative ideas. A good designer will know how to talk it over with you until he has a pretty good understanding of what you are going for.

                                          Contracts and sign-offs are always a good idea. Keeps everything above board and helps identify problems before too much time gets poured into the wrong direction.

                                          The occasional idea also just doesn't work because it can't. A couple years ago I had a client (non-porn) once who I communicated great with and we had done several projects that had been quite successful. But the next idea he wanted to try was a comic strip kind of thing for a magazine ad--and man I was stoked. I love comix and storytelling with pictures--I mean I read Scott McCloud's books on comics just for pleasure. Anyways, damn if I tried everything on that project. So much time. But the mock-ups just never hit him right. After the fifth revision, we let it die. No hard feelings, but it was a disappointment and the time-to-money ratio was pretty third world by the end. I look back at that now and I realize that I think he wanted a little movie, not a comic strip. His visualization would never translate to a 2-D medium. You just can't play a movie on a magazine page. Anyways, so it goes--the point is that sometimes shit just happens and you just have to keep a good attitude and move on.

                                          Christ, long post.

                                          Comment

                                          • BadBoyBill4281
                                            Confirmed User
                                            • May 2002
                                            • 616

                                            #22
                                            ICQ#128496425

                                            www.swinginglocal.com

                                            Comment

                                            • MarkTiarra
                                              Confirmed User
                                              • Aug 2002
                                              • 3833

                                              #23
                                              You've done a ton of designs so I'm sure that you know there are certain things you can do and the site will convert at a certain level so long as the traffic isn't a bunch of crap CJ (as you well point out).

                                              Our point with the guarantee is not so much about "outdesigning" anyone (there's a ton of great designers out there including you) but more to point out the fact that there is a commitment to the project even AFTER it's delivered. Usually you need to tweak something for a bit after it's done to get it to the point where it maximizes the traffic. SOme designers will do that for people (especially if they really like them) and some not. What I'm saying is every client gets that attention and we're on it until the numbers happen.

                                              Irregardless though I wasn't looking to start a post where we find veiled reasons to talk about why one guy should get a job over another... I just wanted to share some of the whacky stories and maybe help each other come up with methodology to improve the process for the designers and the clients.

                                              Originally posted by sextoyking
                                              Mark,

                                              let's don't get started on the Conversion / retention Guarantee thing ok.

                                              This is an old tactic / thread. No One can guarantee anything. Depends on so many things, i.e. traffic, etc.

                                              Sure you can do 1/10,000, but come on..

                                              let's be realistic.

                                              Todd
                                              -----------------------

                                              Hell's yeah! It gets tough here too because we offer that conversion/retention guarantee and that means certain elements HAVE to be done in certain ways to maintain those numbers. Ther are only so many variations you can use before you stray so far that it doesn't make money.
                                              Last edited by MarkTiarra; 11-29-2002, 03:17 PM.

                                              Retired Pornosticator

                                              Comment

                                              • railz
                                                Confirmed User
                                                • Nov 2001
                                                • 2531

                                                #24
                                                I've already mentioned the idea of some kind of coalition, and I think it would be good for us as a whole.

                                                In fact, I just had a great idea.

                                                Designers, watch this space...
                                                This Space for Rent

                                                Comment

                                                • DX
                                                  Feed me coffee.
                                                  • Sep 2001
                                                  • 1128

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by railz
                                                  I've already mentioned the idea of some kind of coalition, and I think it would be good for us as a whole.

                                                  In fact, I just had a great idea.

                                                  Designers, watch this space...
                                                  same idea was brought up five years ago..
                                                  nothing ever panned out.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • spanky
                                                    Confirmed User
                                                    • Apr 2002
                                                    • 231

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by MarkTiarra
                                                    Who hasn't had a client (especially non-adult) who doesn't want to spend more than $500 and wants a big site that has all the bells and whistles and even after you explain what you can deliver for $500, still is upset that their site doesn't have everything that a huge corporate site has?
                                                    amen... this happens with programming / system dev as well. "I need a messageboard, user access control with an admin area for my support staff, mailing list software, a search engine, detailed statistics for an affiliate program and a news release service. The site needs to work on portable devices as well. I've got a guy in india that will do it for $300 so don't dick me around... how much?"

                                                    Comment

                                                    • sextoyking
                                                      Confirmed User
                                                      • Dec 2001
                                                      • 6034

                                                      #27
                                                      Spanky,

                                                      yeppers, I see that alot on elance, etc.

                                                      They want the world for cheap)
                                                      ICQ: 52344098
                                                      --------------------------------------
                                                      50% Commissions on all Product Sales. http://www.wishing.com/money

                                                      Comment

                                                      • SleazyDream
                                                        I'm here for SPORT
                                                        • Jul 2001
                                                        • 41470

                                                        #28
                                                        Short answer - no
                                                        Long answer - NO
                                                        This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog!

                                                        Now read without the word dog.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Brujah
                                                          Beer Money Baron
                                                          • Jan 2001
                                                          • 22157

                                                          #29
                                                          good thread. thanks for the tips.

                                                          here's one for designers too, just FYI.. when I visit your sites.. please don't force me click a javascript link that needs to open a popup. I surf with popups off so I can't load them.. and just have to leave. You can do without the javascript opens can't you ?

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Va2k
                                                            I’m still alive barley.
                                                            • Oct 2001
                                                            • 10060

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by MarkTiarra
                                                            With all the crap being slung around this week for me and others in the design game I just wanna say this and get it off my chest:


                                                            There's a million and one designers out there and I'm sure you've all shared some of the following...

                                                            Sometimes you get creativly stuck and although you can make something once you have the idea pretty quickly... sometimes getting a good idea takes a few days. What designer hasn't missed a deadline on rare occasion because of creative block?

                                                            Who hasn't had a client that no matter how many good designs you make them, they just won't like it or even try it? They either had something in mind that they can't find a way to communicate to you or they did their own work before and their ego won't let them accept something from outside themselves.

                                                            Who hasn't had a client (especially non-adult) who doesn't want to spend more than $500 and wants a big site that has all the bells and whistles and even after you explain what you can deliver for $500, still is upset that their site doesn't have everything that a huge corporate site has? Shit I even had one that asked for a refund because he couldn't get his FTP password to work and thought it was a design issue!

                                                            These things and more happen but if you're good you do 100 jobs and maybe they only happen one or two times out of that. I thnk I've been fortunate in that I've always done extra work for people and I have attracted mostly good honest clients like Local G, Max Cash, Pornholio, Wasteland, Janey, etc... people who understand the value of your work and appreciate it when you go that extra mile for them.

                                                            Anyway I thought with the tone of the posts regarding designers lately I should wonk a little and give ya'll an opportunity to add your commiseration. =]

                                                            Comment

                                                            • SweetT
                                                              Shank-A-Potamus
                                                              • Jan 2002
                                                              • 1756

                                                              #31
                                                              Sign hanging in NatNet Tech Support Offices:

                                                              "The Customer is NOT always right......but the Customer is ALWAYS the Customer."


                                                              --T

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