Btw... few anther example... there was around 20 palestine gun mes that the israeli army was trying to catch... they almost caught them.. but then this fucking 20 palestine gun mens took over a cristan church !!

If it was the US army or UK army or any other army.. they would just get into the church and cataching all of this fucking gun mens.. but bcz that the israeli army respect the church the didn't get it !!!!!

This fucking palestine know that the israeli army is a very humanti army.... and they using it aginst him.

I hope Israel really goes to war.

Dead Palestinians by the truckload and no way they can stop it.

Teach em to strap bombs to themselves and target women and children like a bunch of pussies.

Here are some pictures from what the fucking palestines did yesterday by a direct command from Yasar Arafat !

(i didn't put the hard ones)

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/3cd8ec1a2baf48e9.jpg

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/3cd8ec142b799929.jpg

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/3cd8ec0e2b46bddf.jpg

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/3cd8ebfb2adf3d53.jpg

Again, even though I am no expert, I can make some references...
1. It wasn't Sharon who said we offered 97% etc. which I may doubt. It was Barak, and Clinton and Saab Erikat the Palestinian chief negotiator.

2. If you come to negotiate a deal to bring peace and stability and hope to the region, what you do around the table, is compromise. If you go into the room and get 97% of what you want, this is a damn good result. A damn good compromise. It's not peace negotiations if the side that doesn't get 100% of what he wants - he starts killing hundreds of women and children. This is terror, which is EXACTLY why I said both people need and want this peace and this hope. The tragedy is Arafat's person!

3. No Israeli leader, including the most left wing Israeli politicians, will give the Palestinians the right of return because the right of return means the end of Israel. It means Israel will overnight become an Arab/Muslim state. This is the compromise that the Palestinians have to make - they can return to Palestine, but not to Israel. Israel was divided by the UN in 47 into two countries for two people. hey can return to "their" land. The right of return that they want is to the Israeli side of the border!

4. More than half of the Israelis come from countries like Egypt, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Lybia etc. None of these countries, including those who made peace with Israel, is willing to let those Israelis go back, claim their houses and assets that were nationalized by these governments etc.

5. Inside Israel proper - not Palestine, there are more than 1 million Israeli Arabs (muslims) living in cities and villages and etc. many of them serve in the Israeli Army, Israeli Police etc. They pay their taxes in Israel. They vote and get voted for the Israeli Parliament. They have full rights, and nobody is throwing them out. I think (personally) that if the Jews living in Palestine will be willing to pay their taxes in Palestine and etc. - there is no reason why the settlements must be terminated. If they are willing to be Palestinian subjects, with all the rights and duties of being a Palestinian, I don't see a problem why in peace times they can't live together.

But call me naive. I still think there is currently one evil in this battlefield, and his name is Arafat.

and btw.... here is some picture that shows what i'm talking about when i said that the palestine sending there own 12 years old childern and brothers to suisde bomb themself to kill israeli soldiers -

http://rotter.net/User_files/forum/signatures/mikel.gif

I think the line has finally been crossed.

This video is kind of chilling.

http://www.msnbc.com/m/mw/mw.asp?t=V...&name=& opt=0

well.....blood revenge..

capribex:

You have made some good points. I am not going to get into anymore details about what one side has done, or the other side has done, or what one side should do, or the other side should do, what is fair, or what is unfair.

These people are locked in a death struggle and the tactics being used by both sides are not working and will not work. The hatred just increases and the killing will not stop.


I posted my solution to the problem, which is not really a unique solution.

My resolution to the Israel and Palestinian problem.

It is my understanding that when the UN ordered the original partition the "Palestinians" were left without a contiguos border.

Even if I am incorrect about that; the current situation is that the Palestinians currently do not have a contiguos border and are divided into 13 different areas, with the areas in between being controlled by the Israelies.

My resolution is the following:

#1. The UN order a new partition with the "Palestinians" having a contiguous border.

#2. We put pressure on Israel and the Palestinians to accept without argument the new partition. Israel cannot exist without the billions of dollars we give them each year in financial and military aid, so they will have to comply. The Palestinians should readily accept because it will give them an independent country with a contiguos border.

#3: An outside military force is put in the area, preferrably from that part of the world, but if necessary a UN force, or NATO force. A no man's land separating the border between the two countries, replete with outposts, roving patrols, and electronic sensors, to keep infiltration to a minimum.

#4: Any acts of terrorism by either side to be handled in the World Court.

#5: A massive input of money (preferrably by the Muslim world) to the Palestinians to rebuild their country and develop a viable economy.

#6: Keep this outside military force in place for at least two or more generations. When both economies are doing well, when the newer generations, are enjoying the fruits of peace and a reasonable economy, the hatred will reside.


Will this plan imediately stop all of the killing. No; but it should reduce it, maybe, by 90% and as generations pass, maybe more.

Since nobody is willing to tell it straight to you. I'm the one that is gonna to do it.
People outside your country and your problems DON'T GIVE A SHIT neither about you or what's going on with Israel and Palestine.
Now if you think the best you can to do is to try convince that your part is right to webmasters that the last thing they have in mind is Israel and Palestine keep doing it. Otherwise, join a local hospital or do something useful.

It's your own country damn it! People don't need you to learn what's going on there. You OFFER NOTHING and at the end you kill the right your words may have.

GET REAL. If your posts makes you feel you do offer something in your country i'm telling you: YOU ARE NOT.

Keep dreaming.

drumsicle:

Do I think my plan will ever be implemented? No, not entirely.

I don't think the UN will ever order a new partition.

I do think that the world, including the US, will eventually impose a peace by introducing an outside military force and ordering Israel to withdraw to the pre 1967 border.

Not a chance.

Man, why the palestine can't get some land from oneo f the arab countries ?

israeli is only like 0.1% of the middle east and the arabs are 99.9% of it... so.... you want to make israeli even smaller than it is now ?

It ain't gonna happen.

I didn't want to get into it...AGAIN....but...

1st of all NO 1 will order isreal to do stuff....
2nd The U.S will never do ANYTHING against Israel
3rd the rest of the world can KISS MY ISRAELI ASS

the goverment in Nepal killed 400 "terrorists" last week...no body really cared...
I really hope that Netanyaho will come back and take care of the biz!
sharon isn't doing much

Peace in the middle east!

Pathfinder, I can only agree with the good intentions you have, but the situation on the ground seem to me as much more complicated... Some points to think about (regarding your thoughts):

#1: They had just that... There was never a state/country called Palestine. It was part of Jorden. They had territorial continuity already. It didn't work. I agree that they will need something like that though, when they will have their own state - which will only happen after they will have sane leadership.

#2: Won't work unfortunetly... You can't force people into peace. Kissinger got nobel peace prize for making "peace" between north and south Vietnam. South Vietnam has vanished thereafter... marshal tito tried to force the Serbs and Croats and Albanians etc. to live together in peace in a country called "Yugoslavia"; Now, the grand-grandchildren of those people are killing each other, because they hate each other and you can't force them to like each other any more...

It's also complicated because keep in mind more than 90% of the financial aid the US "gives" Israel is actually credit to buy goods in the US. It's not real money as in a big ship that sails with dollar bills to Israel. This is how Israel can afford F-15's, and F-16's, and Apachees etc. McDonald Douglas will give Bush shit for reducing the financial aid to Israel... The US to a large extent supports its own economy, by "giving" money to Israel.

#3: This may actually happen one day, but I am almost sure it won't work... It will not stop the Palestinian terrorists (just like the Israelis themselves can't stop 100% of the bombers) and Israel will have to retaliate; the peace keepers will be caught in the middle, and when they will get hurt, they will all go back home...

#4: International Court is, unfortunetly, a political body! It is not the un-biassed body people were hoping it would be... It is serving the political aspirations and agendas of some European governments - which is why the US opted out of it a few weeks ago...

#5: I agree 100% on that, BUT, a small problem... The world already gave the Palestinian Authority hundreds of millions of dollars, and all of it somehow disappeared... It was pocketed by the senior PA executives and the rest was spent on Terror. they didn't spend money on creating jobs or improving the life of the Palestinains still living in Refugee camps etc. This is why Bush said yesterday they will only give money when there will be transperency and when there will be no corruption. Otherwise it's like a vacum cleaner... The more money you will give the more will vanish.

#6: See remark number2... Tito tried it... The Soviet Union tried it...

I think that the situation will only be resolved when the people and the leaders will make a strategic decision to lead for peace. Israel did its part when the people voted Rabin and Barak into office. Unfortunetly, despite the wish of the Palestinian people which IS there - their leaders didn't make that strategic decision yet, which is why I said that Arafat is the tragedy of the Palestinian people.

gallerypost:

The UN partitioned the country allowing Israel part of the land and the other indiginents part of the land.

The "Palestinians" would not accept land from anyone else (even if it were offered) because they were given their own land by the UN partition.

Israel has been in defiance of the UN partition since 1967.

I personally do not care what size Israel is or what size "Palestine" is.

The land was partitioned and Israel is in defiance of that partition and as I have already stated I believe it is going to take an outside military force to resolve the problem.

At first I thought it was Chris who posted that... But then I realized there are no swastikas... How many people here answer to your name??? What is the difference between Soul and Meta?

Anyway, I think you are evidently wrong: the threads that get the highest readership and participation in this forum are those relating to the Middle East... Just look at the stats... It is amazing (to me) just how "popular" the subject is, and how every adult webmaster on this earth has a detailed opinion (the right opinions, like me; and the wrong opinions, like Meta's) - and almost everybody is siding with the Israelis or the Palestinians...

Hey, even you decided to read and add to the thread.

Seems like the world would be a dull place without the wars of the middle east that keep this forum alive.

An outside military force. LOL! The Un couldn't do shit to Israel unless the US joined the party, and that aint gonna happen. And the Israelis aren't going to be told by the UN what is their land and what is not. The Palestinians and Arab countries shouldn't have attacked Israel. They did and they lost some land. So be it. The UN is a fucking joke anyway.

Pathfinder, you keep talking about Israel being in defiance of the UN since 1967, and the UN forcing Israel to pre 1967 borders.

You also constantly tell people that what happened in the past shouldn't matter, they should just shove a resolution down Israel's throat.

Do you actually know why Israel is supposedly "in defiance" of the UN since 1967 by occupying that territory?

I'm really starting to think that you don't, or that you have some sort of idea that in 1967 the Israeli's just woke up and decided to go invade people for land.

capribex:

Once again you have made some good points, not all of which I agree with but I don't want to argue details. That is what Israel and the Palestinians do and it really leads no where except to more disareement.

I fully agree that Arafat was and is not a good leader, but he was over whemingly elected by his people in an election overseen by an outside team which included President Carter.

Arafat is not, and has never been, in control of his people. He cannot and will not ever be able to control the extremists in and outside of his borders. I do not think any leader will be able to control the extemists for generations to come.

drumsicle:

A UN force would be my last option. I would prefer to see a force from that part of the world, but if not, then NATO. I am talking about a fighting force, with the military power to impose its will upon either side.

Well, I must agree with what you said, but sadly, this is exactly why I said Arafat is the tragedy of the Palestinian people... I didn't say he wasn't voted - I said he is less than a poor excuse for a leader... He is a symbol, not a leader.

And I do think there will be one day a Palestinian leader who will HAVE (even by force) to take control over the people. Otherwise, the head of the Palestinian people will be no more than a head of one armed gang, and Israel will never be able to negotiate with the Rep of one armed gang. They will need to negotiate with someone who is the single head of the Palestinian people.

As long as Arafat is in control, or as long as there is no one authority in the Palestinian side - this conflict is doomed to continue.

FATPad:

I am fully aware why Israel have the post 1967 borders. I spent more than 30 years in the Army and fought in war five different times. I am aware of tactical and strategic defense. I understand why the Israeli Military does not want to give up some of the land that they won in battle. I understand that the country is small and the more they can expand their borders the greater in depth defense they have.

The question is: Just because it is Israel does it make it legal or right not to return to the borders that the world body (the UN) originally allowed them. That is the dispute between the two sides, that is what world opinion is divided over.

Key phrase right there.

People who start wars, get their asses handed to them, and lose land, have nothing to complain about.

Those same people who kept starting the wars looking to wipe out Israel, are now the people who are whining about legalities and UN resolutions, and how illegal Israel is. Ironic, no? Israel wanted to be left alone. Israel was a sanctioned UN land mass.

The Arabs didn't seem to care. They were going to storm into Israel and kill everyone there in direct defiance of a UN resolution.

Oops....they got their asses kicked repeatedly. Now all of a sudden UN resolutions are of paramount importance to these same barbarians and we're supposed to take them seriously.

Land that they won in battle. Land lost by a much larger force that was going to try and kill Israel and instead got smacked into last century.

The only people to be blamed for that lost land, are the retards themselves who owned the land before Israel.

So, in answer to this question.

It's not because it's Israel that it's legal. It's because anyone who starts a war and loses land in 6 days should really just shut up and go home.

A military force that is gonna impose it's will on the Israelis. Are you fucking nuts? It ain't gonna happen. Nothing personal, but your "solutions" aren't shit.

capribex:

It is my opinion that it is doomed to continue unless an outside force imposes its will on both sides.

The Hamas is headquarted in Lebanon. It has more military power than Arafat has possesed since his forces were disarmed in Lebanon. Its leaders have stated that they are not seeking peace with Israel. They are seeking the non-existence of Israel. They have stated that they, their children, their children's children, will not stop attacking Israel until it ceases to exist. They receive their funding and weapons from countries like Syria, Iran and Iraq, and from extremists groups in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. There are other extremists groups that Arafat has zero control over and this will apply to any Palestian leader that comes foward in the near future.

WAKE THE FUCK UP. Israel, has some 400 tactical nukes. Some of the best fighter pilots in the world and fierce ground troops. No one is going to go in and impose their will on them. No one in the US is gonna support the casualties we will suffer from going in there and trying to control either side period.

And without heavy US involvement, no one will even think about going in there PERIOD.

drumsicle:

I respect your right to have an opinion.

I wasn't aware that you had an inside track to how many nukes Israel has or doesn't have. You have knowledge that is outside of my AO.

It really is immaterial how many nukes Israel has. I am of the opinion that Israel will never use them unless they realise their destruction is inevitable.

I think you are mistaken about an outside force. It is my understanding that the prime minister of Israel has already tentatively agreed to the idea, and Arafat has stated he wants it.

drumsicle:

In addition; sending in a force is an option that is under review by the US.

and does anyone really think that if the US wanted to pressure Israel they'd use military and not economic sanctions????

FATPad:

Agreed. That does not alter the fact the dispute between the two sides and divided world opinion is about Israel continuing to occupy this land.

Rest of the world should mind it's own business. As should we.

The Arabs started this whole mess, and they continually keep poking the Israel military machine. Let them deal with the consequences.

If the US gets involved it should only be to support our ally and support the only free and democratic country in that area.

And yes. If this means letting Israel carpet bomb Palestinian lands then beat the hell out of the enraged Arab "brothers" that come running to help the Palestinians (as long as that help only involves killing Jews and not really doing anything else to help the Palestinians), then screw it, carpet bomb away and beat on some Arabs again.

Sometimes a good ass whoopin is the only way to teach someone some manners, and not every conflict can be settled peacefully. One side WANTS a war. It takes two to have peace but only one asshole with a grudge to start a war.

FATPad:


The Palestians do not have a military so when Israel uses its military it is using it against civilians. The Palestians do not have military targets to carpet bomb, they do not have much of an infrastructure to carpet bomb, so you are talking about carpet bombing civilians.

The weapons of war that Israel has, for the most part, have been provided to them by the US.

Our relations with the Arab world are shaky at best. Israel's relations with the Arab world really doesn't exist and the same applies to the Asian World. Israel's relations with most European nations is shaky at best.

If we the US allowed Israel to use its military power to the extent that you are speaking of, our relations with the Arab world, for the most part would cease to exist. Our relations with Europe would be severely damaged, and probably with the Asian world as well.

Bottom line is the US would not want to suffer the world wide repercussions of allowing Israel to take such severe action.

While I understand your thinking; the consequences we the United States would have to pay for Israel killing civilians on such a massive scale are consequences we cannot afford to pay.

LOL. LMAO.
Hey Rat - A german TV research proved they were both killed by palestenian fire. Read the news you dumbass
LOL