Alex

What do you mean?

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Linguist

Yes I do. Borders are there for a reason. If what you said were acceptable, there would either be:
1) No Mexican border
2) A right for every Mexican who walks 20+ miles in the desert to work in the US

None of that exists, so sorry, my analogy is still acceptable. I do agree that while a gunman robbing 711 should get time in prison, our Mexican friends should be deported without prison time as resources permit.

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escorpio

I said residency and work permits, not citizenship. These should be easier to acquire for Mexicans because of need and I feel the U.S. has a responsibility to help our neighbor.

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Theo

Same situation in europe. World is not so different in such issues.

escorpio

They do get deported and they keep trying till they make it.

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Alex

Why stop at Mexcians?

Why not:
Russians
Germans
Polish
etc

Why not spend tax dollars to fly out people from Europe to the U.S
Provide them with a job, housing, medical benfits so they can have a job.

We have that responsibility too don't we?

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MetaMan

fuck them send them back,

my father took 8 years of doing it the legal way to get his perminent visa.

fuck them, all they really want is to mooch the american society and turn it into mexico 2.0.

there is a reason for the word ILLEGAL.

there is people willing to work, its just what employers are willing to pay.

Alex

Regarding the retirement issue?

I ahve family in losts of major country in Europe, and countless family-friends who have several college degrees, worked hard at thier profession all thier life, recieved the medical coverage they deserved. Retired at 55 and got to enjoy life freely.

Why can't we have the same here?

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escorpio

No, they're on another continent and haven't taken the fucking from the U.S. that Mexico has.

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Alex

Mexico has been taking a "Fucking" from the U.S

Surely you dont classify the Mexcian government as getting rid of all thier shitty ass citizens to our country so they can mooch of us and then send money back home as a "Fucking"

Do you?

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Lane

It's not about making it easier. It's more like making its "possible".

There are basically 3 stages to immigration:

1. Temporary status.


Work visa falls under here. Anyone who is offered a job should be able to get this, given the worker will be paid minimum wage or more, plus a fee.
First they need to create this path for non-skilled workers, as it doesn't exist yet.

Now people are saying, this should be offered only if illegals leave USA first and then come back legally with this. In my personal opinion that's not gonna happen. This option should be available for illegal immigrants who have been in the US since before Bush announced his plans on this. Without them having to leave the country.


2. Permanent residency. (i.e. Green Card)

Every immigrant with no criminal record etc.. and who has been working for certain number of years, should be able to get this. Additional criterias can apply, as they're currently discussing this too. Like english requirement etc...

This path already exists for employment based immigrants, but it is too complicated and lengthy process, in my personal opinion. It requires way too much effort and money to consider viable for a non-skilled worker case. For a skilled worker (college graduate professional), it might be worth it to deal with, but not for a minimum wage worker. That's why this process also needs some adjustments made.



3. Citizenship.

After being a good resident for 5 years, without leaving the US for a long time, you qualify for this. Again you need to be clean, and also need to pass some tests about USA (history, politics etc...)
This option currently exists for Green Card holders. No need to make changes here.

At this point a person will have spent 7 to 10 years in the USA, which in my opinion definitely justifies their right to become a citizen.

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Linguist

I do agree with your point above, but the work permits should be controlled, and not given to any illegal immigrant.

Now, your bottom quote is what makes US hate the Mexicans. Look bud, you're racist and/or nationalist yourself. You think US owes something to you, it gave you the fucking, and you want to fuck them back, right? Is that how you justify illegal immigrants? That's why so many people don't want you in the US.

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escorpio

Shitty ass citizens? What makes them shitty?

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Alex

This is exactly what he have now. Except for work visa's for non-skilled workers.

But why would illegal citizens do that when they can hope the border illegally when they want. Without going through any paper work.

Get paid under the table in cash. No taxes, and mooch off the government.


We first have to start enforcing current laws before making new ones.

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Alex

Well let's see.

A good citizen of a country stays in his country. Gets an education, works there and pays taxes to help the economy growing and dosnt abandon his country.

The exact oppisote of what most illegals that come to the U.S are doing.

That makes them "shitty ass citizens".

Whats next, they work over the U.S, turn it into a Mexcio v2.0 as someone mentioned and move on to the next country.

You could compare them to parasites if you want.

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escorpio

The fucking that has done a lot to cause migration is NAFTA. Do you know what it's done to Mexican farms?

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Lane

Guess that makes founders of the USA "shitty ass citizens" too eh?

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escorpio

You have no grasp of what is going on. Have you ever been to Mexico? A "good citizen" stays and starves?

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Alex

First people to come to the U.S from other countries were basically kicked out.

Ever heard of religious persecution???

They really had no choice. I dont think Mexicans are discriminated against by other Mexicans in Mexico.

Se what I'm getting at?


Also. When they came here, they didnt come to a new country. But to a colony owned by the same country.

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Alex

So they left Mexico because of the horrible conditions and the fact that thier government wouldn't help them.

Why are these same idiots parading through the streets of Los Angeles with MEXCIAN flags.

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escorpio

I'm a U.S. citizen of mostly British heritage. My grandmother (mom's side) was born in Texas to Mexican parents of Spanish blood. My father's side is from England and was here before the Revolution. I am Anglo in appearance and upbringing. I live on the border in Arizona and love Mexico and see a little more than the sensationalistic news stories that are so popular right now, and I think the U.S. needs to pay more attention to the people of Mexico.

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escorpio

Because you can hate your government but love your country.

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psili

You've got great posts man. I pretty much agree with what you're saying. I just can't stand the "I / we deserve" mentality I keep seeing; and I'm not just talking about in regard to the issue in this thread. Nobody deserves anything....

Anyway... post on....

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crodj

Every morning when I got to work. I see Mexicans standing in line under the underpass of the freeway exits. I agree that they take jobs that most of us wont do. The problem is, the reason they do so is because some of them don't have paperwork. I have hired a few that do.

I myself came from immigrant parents but they took the time to fill out the proper paperwork , and they waited years and years. They came from a third world country just like Mexico is. But they did it the right way.

I do not agree with immigrants illiegaly tresspassing.

I feel that the reason why they do the jobs that they do is sometimes relevant to the fact that they can't get anything else. I had a job a few years ago where I befriended a few of our Mexican chefs. They showed me fake driver s liscence and fake social security cards. although the informaiton on the cards was real, it didn't belong to the person. I didn't report them them because they were genuine people working hard just illegaly.

We as Americans don't owe any other counrty anything. We need to take care of our own and provide for our own. tresspassers defy that rule and in some cases take advantage of our system because at times it is too forgiving and lenient.

Mexican people are good people. Mexican people are hard workers. I know this because I've worked with Mexicans and have attended many classes in high school and college where I've seen how smart Mexicans are.

Illegals however, I think they should take the proper course of action to reside in the United States.

I know we can go on and on about this but at the end of the day, We don't have the figures and numbers that congress does. Im sure they play a vital role in our budget. If they were that serious about controlling immigration they would.

Thanks Everyone as im sure we all feel a certain way about this.

D

escorpio

They sufferred "religious persecution" so they had "no choice"? Why didn't they just change religions and avoid getting kicked out? Having "no choice" is living in poverty and starving. Economics is what drives this migration.


You're wrong.

No.


Where they proved themselves to be such "shitty citizens" they revolted against their government.

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Alex

Im sorry Hitler. Why did i ever disagree with you.

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escorpio

I'm sorry. I think that one sailed past you...

My point is you claim the people that migrated to North America had no choice because of religion yet you seem to think that when a Mexican is faced with starving or migrating he should starve. Absurd.

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Kre8t0r

I have been reading these threads for a few weeks now... Being from S. Florida I can relate to the mexican issue. We have the "wet foot" deal here which really PISSES me off! Any cuban that sets foot on US soil stays... Pretty stupid since we have no clue on the criminal background etc. People called Sperber Natzi for his views well you can add me to that list if what he said is the reasoning behind the label, you can also add this guy you may remember the name...

Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.

"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."


Need I say any More??? Be an American or get the fuck OUT!

escorpio

How exactly do you "be an American"? Why does it piss you off that Cubans are granted asylum?

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bdld

there's two options, migrant workers do jobs americans are too lazy to do and keep prices low. or try and hire 100% americans and have prices sky-rocket. everything from lettuce to homes to cheeseburgers.
its the same thing as banning clothes made in china for pennies an hour and giving americans those jobs. i'd rather keep things the way they are now.

Kre8t0r

Let me take you to S Miami where the street signs are in spanish and english... That's a good start why I think it's bullshit. Castro let all the prisoners loose on us in the 80's and now this... I still stand behind Teddy 100%. How do you be an American you ask?? re-read the quote and think of how many "immigrants" have forign flags waving from their houses, cars, etc.

I have 3 generations in this state so you can trace my family back to when the indians came to Florida. If we should be giving anyone anything we should start with them!

Tom_PM

It's all about the money money money.

Whenever you hear someone say that they "do the jobs americans wont do", it means "do the jobs for half the price that americans would" and thats all there is to it.

If I needed a drywaller and one was a company who paid taxes and insurance and $25 an hour, why wouldnt I go find a guy in the parking lot of Home Depot and offer him $10 an hour and no benefits and tax free?

What also gets to me is that the REASON they leave Mexico is because Mexico does jack shit to prop up it's own people with decent wages and services! WTF.

I have no good notion of a real solution, but it's sure screwed up how we're being force fed sound bites until not even the news people question the truth of them.

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Alex

Thats the point of this tread idiot.

Who picks lettuce, flips burgers, washes cars, mows laws, in fucking Alabama or Oregon, or Ohio and the other 46 states that dont have a large population of illegal immigrants.

Why doesnt a hamburger cost $25 in Alabama?

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escorpio

You don't have to take me to S Miami to show me those deeply offensive signs in spanish and english, I live on the border. Are you intimidated by spanish?

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escorpio

Never been to Oregon, I see. So where are you from? You seem pretty sheltered if you think mexicans are only in California.

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Kevsh

Exactly.
But the bigger lesson is that *because* illegal immigrants take these jobs the wages have been dropped so low that most others won't want them. If the wages rose to a decent level, there would be plenty of unemployed who would gladly take these jobs.
A chicken/egg thing.

Alex

WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU THINK I AM FROM???

Los Angeles, California.

Why do you think i care so much.

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AmigoPorn

Why not start by questioning the veracity of political ads?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...-elections-utl

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escorpio

Why don't you move to Idaho?

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Alex

Why dont you move back to Mexico?

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escorpio

Because you lost your job washing dishes at Denny's to a Mexican?

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escorpio

I'm moving to Mazatlan when my son gets out of school.

PS - I was born in Seattle

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Alex

Great comeback. How original.

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Libertine

Myths and migration
Apr 6th 2006
From The Economist print edition


Do immigrants really hurt American workers' wages?

EVERY now and again America, a nation largely made up of immigrants and their descendants, is gripped by a furious political row over whether and how it should stem the flood of people wanting to enter the country. It is in the midst of just such a quarrel now. Congress is contemplating the erection of a wall along stretches of the Mexican border and a crackdown on illegal workers, as well as softer policies such as a guest-worker programme for illegal immigrants. Some of the arguments are plain silly. Immigration's defenders claim that foreigners come to do jobs that Americans won't?as if cities with few immigrants had no gardeners. Its opponents say that immigrants steal American jobs?succumbing to the fallacy that there are only a fixed number of jobs to go around.

One common argument, though not silly, is often overstated: that immigration pushes down American workers' wages, especially among high-school dropouts. It isn't hard to see why this might be. Over the past 25 years American incomes have become less equally distributed, typical wages have grown surprisingly slowly for such a healthy economy and the real wages of the least skilled have actually fallen. It is plausible that immigration is at least partly to blame, especially because recent arrivals have disproportionately poor skills. In the 2000 census immigrants made up 13% of America's pool of workers, but 28% of those without a high-school education and over half of those with eight years' schooling or less.

In fact, the relationship between immigration and wages is not clear-cut, even in theory. That is because wages depend on the supply of capital as well as labour. Alone, an influx of immigrants raises the supply of workers and hence reduces wages. But cheaper labour increases the potential return to employers of building new factories or opening new valet-parking companies. In so doing, they create extra demand for workers. Once capital has fully adjusted, the final impact on overall wages should be a wash, as long as the immigrants have not changed the productivity of the workforce as a whole.

However, even if wages do not change on average, immigration can still shift the relative pay of workers of different types. A large inflow of low-skilled people could push down the relative wages of low-skilled natives, assuming that they compete for the same jobs. On the other hand, if the immigrants had complementary skills, natives would be relatively better off. To gauge the full effect of immigration on wages, therefore, you need to know how quickly capital adjusts and how far the newcomers are substitutes for local workers.

City to city

Empirical evidence* is as inconclusive as the theory. One method is to compare wage trends in cities with lots of immigrants, such as Los Angeles, with those in places with only a few, such as Indianapolis. If immigration had a big effect on relative pay, you would expect this to be reflected in differences between cities' wage trends. David Card, of the University of California, Berkeley, is one of the leading advocates of this approach. His research suggests that although there are big differences between cities' proportions of immigrants, this has had no significant effect on unskilled workers' pay. Not everyone is convinced by Mr Card's technique. His critics argue that the geographical distribution of immigrants is not random. Perhaps low-skilled natives leave cities with lots of immigrants rather than compete with them for jobs, so that immigration indirectly pushes up the supply of low-skilled workers elsewhere (and pushes down their wages). Mr Card has tested the idea that immigration displaces low-skilled natives and found scant evidence that it does.

An alternative approach, pioneered by George Borjas, of Harvard University, is to tease out the effect of immigration from national wage statistics. Mr Borjas divides people into categories, according to their education and work experience. He assumes that workers of different types are not easily substitutable for each other, but that immigrants and natives within each category are. By comparing wage trends in categories with lots of immigrants against those in groups with only a few, he derives an estimate of immigration's effect. His headline conclusion is that, between 1980 and 2000, immigration caused average wages to be some 3% lower than they would otherwise have been. Wages for high-school drop-outs were dragged down by around 8%.

Immigration's critics therefore count Mr Borjas as an ally. But hold on. These figures take no account of the offsetting impact of extra investment. If the capital stock is assumed to adjust, Mr Borjas reports, overall wages are unaffected and the loss of wages for high-school drop-outs is cut to below 5%.

Gianmarco Ottaviano, of the University of Bologna, and Giovanni Peri, of the University of California, Davis, argue that Mr Borjas's findings should be adjusted further. They think that, even within the same skill category, immigrants and natives need not be perfect substitutes, pointing out that the two groups tend to end up in different jobs. Mexicans are found in gardening, housework and construction, while low-skilled natives dominate other occupations, such as logging. Taking this into account, the authors claim that between 1980 and 2000 immigration pushed down the wages of American high-school drop-outs by at most 0.4%.

None of these studies is decisive, but taken together they suggest that immigration, in the long run, has had only a small negative effect on the pay of America's least skilled and even that is arguable. If Congress wants to reduce wage inequality, building border walls is a bad way of going about it.

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Tom_PM

I really hate political ads. They never promote the candidate, and always trash the opposition.

If they just said hey look, isn't the real issue that our LEGAL method for migrants is too slow, and the EMPLOYERS of illegal migrants is what is driving the run for our border, then it'd be more fair and truthful I think.

We need a new minimum wage for one thing. It's so long overdue it's a disgrace IMHO.

We need a 'fast track' system to put the people who TRULY want to come and live in America AS Americans through the system faster.

But to hear the News people and politicians talk, there are 2 options: Deport 11 million people, or give them a card that says they can work legally for sub par pay for greedy shady employers who BTW, are also breaking the law! lol

Another thing is that from what you see and read, you'd think that ALL Mexicans in america wish they could just come here and work with no hassle. Baloney. The ones who are here legally through the system vote strongly opposed to any "amnesty" type program in the border states.

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NinjaSteve

This whole thing is stupid and getting out of hand. It's not a racial thing, it's an illegal immigrant issue. I don't care if a person is from Ireland, Italy, Spain, Argentidna, Mexico, etc, if you want to go into any country (not just he U.S.) you need to fill out the proper paper work. And if you're allowed into another country then you have to follow the laws in regards to employment and paying taxes.

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Expo_Vids

The USA is FUCKED.

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