well an example of the above would be twisty's and lightspeed off the top of my head.

both are different niches and some may say differ as to the caliber of "quality"

what they have in common is tantamount to success.

both had a vision, found the groove, didnt deviate and are always fine tuning.

I am trying to produce and sale very clean and color balanced videos only.Anyway I don't agree
Just imagine that you set up a paysite showing some true reality content - lets say hidden camera of wifes masturbating when husband is out of home.Some true reallity
Thats would be fucking the best paysite ever and none care if the video is not so clear.

I think QUALITY RULES!! And it rules in amateur too -- while you wont get the lighting, makeup and perfection with amateur (that is kinda the point !!) you should see have an EASY TO USE WEBSITE (i mean who can be jacking and surfing if it is really hard to NAV) as well as good content -- I think a lot of sites go for picture overload when GREAT PICS and CLIPS is HOTTER !!

Couple of points.

If you think me generating discussions on the product that brings in 95% of the money is spam then please forgive me.

Are you saying the business has built itself a model of of the surfer not rebilling out of choice? Illogical, there is more money in keeping him 2 months then upselling him than there is in only keeping him 1 month. The industry fails to keep him him is more the truth.

90% of the photographers in this business could not sell their content in any other spheres of the industry. Simple truth is they are not good enough. That may sound arrogant, but is it true?

if they make money does it really matter? lol

The quality I'm talking about is more than a HD camera. Getting the right equipment is easy.

Knowing how to use it, light and color balance is easy, just read the manual.

Getting the images on screen right and viewable is also easy, doing a decent search engine is easy as well. So why do so many fail on the easy parts?

Knowing how to make a model, who is only there for the most money for the least time and effort, look like she would fuck the world for a pizza and capture it on film is the hard part. And I can be forgiving if it does not always come off.

:thumbsup :thumbsup

Except we have to be able to see the images. Yes navigation on some big sites is abysmal.

a hd camera doesnt mean quality I seen tons of hd shit .Hd isnt as forgiving as sd, you have to know what you are doing. All of it is hdv which is a crap format. CReativity and sexual are more important then HD. Hd isnt as forgiving as sd. Our new site is being shot in 24 p dvx100a and we are running a 80% retension rate. I use news style lighting but what makes it sell and the members stay are the scenes are real and hot.

One of the problems of some review sites is the same person reviews any or all niches. I don't know how this builds customer loyalty.

After being in the industry nearly 3 decades I still do not have a clue about 80% of the niches and would not venture in reviewing them.

Though many review sites are mostly about the surfability, exclusivity and size of the site. Few review the porn element.

not arrogant but a tad cantakerous....

i usually find comments like yours coming from guys who worked mainstream and bitch about quality when in actuality its really about the money -

at the same time Paul youre an artist and artistic value is an equally legit point to argue too.

BUT

porn aint about "art" and never will be -

the internet has fucked alot of peoples incomes and jobs in diffferent industries.

especially adult.

i would say 99% on the net do suck and couldnt compete mainstream but then again the net is mainstream and there is a place for that 99% to flourish.

and that 99% outweighs the 1%.

the 1% is art

the 99% is about sex.

re-read my 4th comment.

:thumbsup thats really the gist of it all paul - having that abilty seperates the men form the boys.

Read this thread and it is obvious why most sites make no money at all.

OK it could be cantankerous

Cantankerous =
1. Ill-tempered and quarrelsome; disagreeable: disliked her cantankerous landlord.

But is it true?

Yes a lot of people on the adult Internet work in the main stream, but that was not my statement. What I said was how many photographers (or videographers) sell their work in other parts of the porn industry?

Now look at other parts of the porn industry selling here.

I don't see your point about it being about the money. You sell a license to the Internet, magazines, videos, cable, Mobile and you make more money. I know of 2-3 Internet companies who have gone into the DVD market. How many DVD companies have come the other way?

Out of choice? I'm not sure I would go that far, because there wasn't really much choice involved when the trend began.

If you go back to '96/'97, surfers were falling over themselves to buy pretty much anything. That eagerness didn't provide a whole lot of incentive to give them more than the bare minimum: an attitude which was reinforced by the cost of bandwith, the cost of content and the reality that there was little if any content around which, by today's standards, would be considered "quality".

Not surprizingly, while sales boomed, rebills sucked and I recall a lengthy thread on YNot from '97 on exactly that topic. My contribution to that thread was to comment that surely it was obvious why most members stayed only a month or two and that the solution - frequent updates of decent content - was equally obvious.

Who knows whether, had the market developed differently, we would still need to be having this discussion. But the next significant trend, inevitable since generally rebills were so poor, was that PPS became the dominant payout method. And payouts quickly climbed to unrealistic levels.

The consequence of all this was that cross-sells, up-sells, consoles, the whole raft of tricks needed to pull affiliates in and support those rates, became the primary focus of most sponsors. PPS also creates potential cashflow issues: another reason to put a lot of effort into sales and leave rebills to take care of themselves.

Which isn't to say people are happy about poor rebills, but apart from the difficulty and risk involved in trying to switch business models, there is also a lot of cynicism as to whether spending a lot of money on content would improve rebills enough to be worthwhile. This arises because although content is overall of a much higher standard than it was 10 years ago, rebill levels for many sponsors appear (from the regular threads about rebill ratios) to be largely unchanged.

In part that is because "quality" content is not the only factor bearing on rebills: member area ease of use and delivering closer to what sales pitches promise, are at least as important. And some of those "tricks" I mentioned earlier impact negatively on rebills, mopping up the positive effect of the generally improving content standards that we might otherwise see. Simple greed and shortsightedness are the other reasons why content is still a peripheral issue for so many sites.

Which is an awfully long-winded way to justify the observation I made earlier, that the most popular business model does not depend on rebills and therefore you will have a very hard time convincing those who use it successfully, that they are wrong.

I happen to agree with you. I think the reason that online porn is still very much the poor relation of the adult entertainment industry, is that we don't put near enough effort into keeping customers. I believe that our ability to sell billions of dollars of crap should strongly suggest how much more the market would be worth if we came closer to delivering what surfers actually want to see. And we all know, from the relatively few sites which use it, that a quality-based business model can be very successful.

But two major problems, one of which you brought up: namely the limited number of good photographers. Because of that, it isn't practically possible for more than a small fraction of the industry to obtain the kind of content which would let more sites operate like ATK, Alscan... or like Paul Markham.

And the second problem is affiliates. Thousands won't touch revshare, many of them even when it would earn them more money. And not unreasonably, even those who do like revshare will approach new sites/sponsors with caution. So a sponsor promoting revshare usually faces a longer, harder job attracting affiliates than a PPS sponsor does. If he doesn't have the patience and resources to accept that, he needs very deep pockets (and very strong nerves) if he decides to run with PPS and yet promote customer-friendly sites.

Missed this and it's a very good comment and linked to what I'm driving at.

One of the reasons we sell so well, both on the Net and magazines, is the lack of competition. Look around and see who shoots similar on a regular basis. Max Candy and Aarron Matthews immediately come to mind and I'm sure there are more.

Now look at the POV, Reality, Amateur, etc. sector. How many sites/producers come to mind, to many I'm sure.

Now factor in supply and demand.

So many sites are boasting Exclusive and yet what they have is never exclusive to the SURFER because the same content is on 1000 other sites. The same niche, style, action, etc. all that's different is the girl, location or dick she's sucking on.

But if you really want to retain members drive up his acceptance levels of porn. Porn is a drug, give him a stronger dose and you narrow his options on moving elsewhere. Lower the compression, increase the image/video size, shoot hotter porn, improve the site and where does he go?

Look at your car, computer or house. Will you be moving down or up market on choice?

this is all true, but so was the statement"traffic is king and content is queen"
 

So the reason the comment "your getting too deep" was made, (in my opinion)
is because; If king and queen are both present, strong and "independently" working at maxium ability, side by side. Then the royal staff wouldn't have any worries about the kingdom. Instead they can all focus on what it is they do best and perfect it, and offer it to the king for the purpose of providing him with pleasure.

If this scenario were true then it would be safe to assume that the king would always be viewing the highest quality., because everyone would have all the time in the world, and be worry free, to do their best.


But in reality, (at least my reality)
there is no king, so eventually quality of the queen may suffer when the queen realizes that she needs find a king or perform his duties.

And what it boils down to is this

You cannot work the cash register and make the pizza!

To be clearer, if we all had the luxory of a king, we could be our best and provide quality. But it seems we all just make the best of what we got, And if we are doing our best, Isn't that quality through and through!

Cantankerous, yes and ill be to the point here but before i do, i want to tell you i respect you and your work and think your a good giuy! :thumbsup

your talking about quality ect- your bitching and moaming about it just stems from you spending yrs learning the craft, paying dues and it pisses you off that any asshole can basically pick up a camera, video or otherwise, shoot a scene and sell it and make money where they normally wouldnt back in the old days.

this has taken money out of your pocket.

and of course your right for feeling that way!

i agreed with you. i said 99% coudlnt cut it.
but that doesnt mean theres not a market for it.

- if its internet related prob alot - if its main stream prob not many.

reason being

the quality level for the net isnt as high a standard as mainstream.

that i dont know.

anyone know this? if so please elaborate!

but i will take a stab and do a comparison.

think about hustler playboy and penthouse.

they should be the giants of internet porn

but theyre not.

why?

antiquitaed marketing and the age of those people working at those companies is fucking them up.

cluelessness.

playboy got a clue when lensman approached them.

Good post and exactly what I'm saying. you have to know the niche and deliver the quality to put yourself above the other 100 to 1000 sites doing the same.

I saw Privates Gladiators and thought exactly the same. I think both movies were made for the soft cable market, not the hardcore DVD market. The problem is probably due to the director shooting porn like he would shoot mainstream.

Stopping and starting to get a shot, angle, version will just put off actors and turn the sex scenes into clinical exercises. Getting the color and exposure right is only half the job, they got the porn wrong. Which is a point I'm making.

Both these sites illustrate perfectly why you should use quality to put yourself above the opposition. Both great sites.

You know from experience the tough part is getting a girl to do it as if she's doing it for real. And this is the point of my post. It's no good to just think Amateur is poor quality video, it's all about real action.

As I said getting a girl to perform for real is not that easy.

and then theres bang bus.

your thoughts?

That´s what I think. You can have really high quality scene, but if the girl looks put down or embaressed, what´s the point. You get to see lost´s of these, but Ii think surfer wants to see something really hot, what turns him on and what´s different to others.

The sites which are difficult to get on I always leave, couse I don´t wanna waste my time, and many surfers do the same, as you said.

Does this mean you are doing a 180 on exclusive content?

Quality content & superb design is the key to success:thumbsup :thumbsup

Will never agree that Exclusive makes a jot of difference to a guy with his dick in his hand and our paysite proves it. We convert at under 1:500 with non exclusive.

What they want, IMO, is quality porn. This is not sharp in focus, studio lit images, it's porn that fits the niche and gets his dick hard.

My reply was in reply to someone saying there is always someone who will buy it. I was making the point of selling to more than the add person who might like it.

getting a girl to perform for real is not just that easy - its impossible.
I have never seen any girl perform for real

yea its called acting

some act better than others.

:1orglaugh

If we say that quality these days considers sharp, high resolutions images and same to the videos, its year 2006 - I presume that most of pay sites today (or at least bigger ones) has exactly that - rebills are yet poor.

I think that design/layout of site are not playing big roll once the surfer pay to enter. He won?t rebill to adore your design ? porn is the thing he is interested for, and sure, making him easy navigate site is a plus, but I think not the crucial thing. Even if navigation is complicated, he will once go thought it and finally learn how to use it, at least, he has 30 days to do this. Maybe one of the reasons could be lack of personality of a site? If you give him porn, a jerk off material, which is nothing else then blowjob-fucking-cuming (order can be different :) in various scenes while hundreds of sites out there is offering the pretty much same thing (lets assume the same quality) ? why he would rebill at your site? Speaking about personality, aren?t solo girl sites trying to offer exactly that? It would be interested to know their rebills.

Another aspect could be developing of technologies and more percentage of surfers using fast connections today. With that type of connection, surfer could download hundreds of GBs to his hard drive during 30 days, basically rip all your site, and why the hell he would like to rebill? But, combining personality with constant updates on your site, I guess you could do something about it.

I all depends on the niche - you can find teen sites everywhere and it will take some time to see them all. When it comes to foot fetish, nylons, messy etc. exclusiveness is more important because it's really easy to visit most of the interesting messy or even foot fetish sites.
I hope quality is the most important factor however from my experience it is not always like this: I used to retouch by hand every single picture for 15 minutes each, all were done with a film camera (non-digital) and processed in a really good lab. I was selecting best 50 pictures out of 200 for example after shooting for 5-6 hours and the quality was superb. Then I changed it: all digital, some retouching, and putting 100 out of 150 pics. What happened then? Conversions went up twice. I guess quality is good for educated surfers but it is possible that most of them prefer quantity.

Then you need to look at the way you direct and interact with your models. not trying to have a go at you but the atmosphere of the shoot can often determine the way a girl does it.

Problem is that the real way is not the "Porn" way. just had a review that said the girls were not putting enough into the orgasms. Seems the guy needs to sleep with more girls and watch less porn. :1orglaugh

very good points.

Less face it this is 2006. Digital cameras are so easy to use a chimp could take a decent picture. So why should amateur be grainy, out of focus and tinted color?

We've been reviewing a lot of sites and the problem with many is over compression. simple as that, some have our images and we know what we delivered and we know what we see. Over compressed images.

You are 100% right about personalising the site. This is the real reason many exclusive sites make it, the site/content has personality. Just getting 100 exclusive videos will not cut it.

You need to go further, like Bang Bus, Girls Gone Wild, Perfect Gonzo etc. but you still need to make sure the porn is good as these sites do.

In todays market you need to cut yourself apart from the 10,000 other sites offering exactly the same as you, even though it is exclusive it's no different. A naked girl on a sofa/bed is always going to be no more than just a "naked girl on a sofa/bed". It's not exclusive to the surfer even if you're the only person in the world with that girl.

If you make a solo girl site, you must give her a personality, but the more you do this the more you deter others who do not like her. But still it's another solo girl site that is one of 1,000 available to the surfer. What you need to do is cut above the rest.

Find a girl like Raven Riley or Tawnee Stone, get them to work the site, make the porn hotter than what's on the other 999 sites out there, make the images better than them and make the site more surfable.

If you want to win the race you need to run harder than those around you.

Kolargol
Good points. But if Exclusive is so important to them and works so well why can't most of the afford to buy exclusive? Truth is few narrow niche sites can afford to pay $400 for a video and photset. And I can shoot it, shot for Leg Sex and Leg World, plus was shooting messy sets decades ago for Razzle and Escort.

A decent digital camera will always produce a better image than a scanned slide. Unless you want to print and have a drum scanner. Two totally different mediums.

Ive always thought this. I don't know any site that cant be ripped in 30 days, so why rebill?

Maybe its best to implement download limits. I have a few sites that do exactly that. If i give someone a 500 MB limit per day, but the daily membership works out at 0.66c per day for that 500MB , i think their getting a pretty good deal for the money. It gets to a stage where i wonder whether anyone realises how much of a good deal the average member gets. Just because a member moans, doesnt make them right.

While there are a lot of good points in this thread from quality, to different marketing approaches they are all little more than a piece in a puzzle if you are looking for rebills.

Now don't get me wrong. Quality is a big factor. But..

You also need updates, and keep up on them. If you have a ton of material, especially video, the odds of them ripping your whole site in 30 days will be difficult depending on their internet connection.

If you want rebills, you need to build in more interaction. Not just be the same old rerun of the same old material and site where the members are disconnected. Clothes, model interaction, cams, e-mail, suggestions, etc.

One of the biggest factors is people talk like a customer's porn budget's unlimited. But most have some kind of limit. So they may spend 'X' amount of dollars on your site on month, go to another the next, and return the third. I have plenty of customers who do this. Either bounding between my sites, or going to another and returning every few months. They are no different then me. They have so much they are willing to spend, and bounce between their favorite sites.

:2 cents:

I have to disagree.

If a product is garbage in quality, yet is known mainstream, it will sell like kosher tampons to jewish teens.


If the surfer connects to the material on a personal level, they couldnt give a fuck if its high quality or low grade.



only a small percentage want " hollywood budget style " shoots.

How important is QUALITY is to the surfer?
Answear: It's very important, if u want to keep ypur clients and get new ones, u must have really ROCKIN' and good looking content. Hot teen babies etc.
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