pr0

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story...687134,00.html

Guardian Unlimited - 2 hours ago
Iran announced yesterday it would stage a conference to question the authenticity of the Holocaust, a move certain to stir international anger. The statement follows a series of inflammatory remarks by Iran's ...

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fetishblog

I say leave Iran alone. They are the #4 exporter of oil in the world, and if we fuck with them, the price for a barrel of oil will go up and over the $100 mark. It's already sitting at $64/barrel, and goddammit, I'm tired of paying $2.20/gal for gas.

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DWB

i have to agree with you on this one.

DaddyHalbucks

If it is a critical conference and not a hater conference, it might be interesting.

A debate on the subject is long overdue.

If the "holocaust myth buster" groups are proven wrong, such a conference might even end the debate on the subject once and for all.

The real question is who will be allowed to participate? Will all major scholars in the field be represented and will there be any government censorship?

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Blizzard

Ira(n/q) has WMD and/or was involved in 9/11 and/or harbours terrorists. Invade them we must.

pr0

Really? I thought maybe all the photos of dead malnurished bodies in piles, the empty cans of gift gas, the mass graves & the giant furnaces were enough of a historical marker to make it exist without a debate.

je_rome

I can't believe people are still trying to disprove the massacre of million people which was the most horrifying moment in history

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spunkmaster

The US gets zero oil from Iran and hasn't for 25 years !

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Webby

Think that's a choice the US made SM?

But.. at least Iran offered to send 20 mill barrels of crude after Katrina hit. And.. they never forgot that the US helped them with their earthquake problem in 2003.

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xclusive

Anybody that doesn't think that it really happened is an idiot

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dbavaria

People always say the holocaust was an "unbelivable" even in history, so I suppose they do have a right to explore its unbelivability...

Webby

As you said xclusive

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Brujah

Why is it such a big deal if they want to question the numbers, and investigate it a little ?

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MontrealPimp

Good news, It is about time someone launches a conference on this matter. The only people that try to prevent this from happening are trying to hide the truth, think about it, why would anyone try to stop this sort of conference?

Webby

No biggie Brujah.... OK... one, two, three.... but... bottom line, it's one hell of a lot of men, women and children who suffered and died within all the acres of concentration camps - and, for convenience sake and other reasons, met their deaths before even getting that far.

That is not a thing that needs forgotten and may be a reminder to other generations of what is possible when a leadership becomes sick and out of control.

In many ways, Iran may be doing the world a service by raising the issue.

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phonesex

us should nuke iran.

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Brujah

Not only that, it may also help them realize the truth and reality if they're genuinely interested in finding out the truth ? It could be a good thing.

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Deputy Chief Command

I hear they have invited ALL JEWS to come to Iran to make their point ,

funny thing is, they only offered one way tickets?

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Deputy Chief Command

most horrifying moment in RECENT history ,

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Odin

Yes, and actually I think Iran has made some good points about the matter, not concerning whether it is true or not (I guess their conference will present their information on what they believe), but more so regarding its unquestinability in the West. Whilst in the US this remains unquestionable at a moral level (which is understandable) in Europe it remains unquestionable, undebatable at a legal level, which in a modern 'free' democracy is unacceptable. Many people in Europe have already been jailed from presenting information contrary to the exact historical events of the Holocaust.

We only have to look at the threats of legal action against Jean Marie Le Pen currently for his statement that 'the Nazi occupation of France was not particularly brutal'. As a result of these comments, like when he said the Holocaust was only a 'detail of history' (for which he was legally charged and convicted for) they have threatened to take him to court again. In my opinion the Iranian state is hardline and biased, but I think perhaps their investigation into the issue could atleast set some example for the West in allowing greater freedom of discussion and debate on all topics, not just politically correct ones.

Two more examples of free speech being denied on this issue are David Irving and Ernst Zundel. I am not sure exactly how many years in jail David Irving faces, but I think it was around 10 years+ in jail. Read this article on them to learn more: http://www.pressaction.com/news/webl...rving01062006/ . I can only ask, is this the kind of freedom Europe supports? The freedom to agree with only with what is mainstream and popular? In my opinion the notion of 'Free Speech' exists to protect those WITH unpopular and yes offensive opinions (and that includes opinions that I personally find offensive to me). So Europe jails people for years who question it, and Iran holds debates on the matter, who is taking the more extreme approach here?

Deputy Chief Command

you is what we call an uneducated american here in europe

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Deputy Chief Command

like you are free to say what you want in the USA

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Odin

It is indeed a horrifying moment, but despite popular belief it is far from the only such event in RECENT history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor . 5-10 Million people died in a forced starvation in Ukraine (by the Soviets) around the same time.

Odin

I am an Australian actually. And also, I'd like to point out that laws are basically as restrictive here as they are in Europe, so you should note I am not an arrogant, egotistical American pointing the finger. I am an observer who supports true freedom, not pseudo freedom.

Politically speaking you are FAR FAR more free than you are in Europe. Not that this is thanks to Bush or any other recent fuckwits that have occupied the Presidency. It is however thanks to the founding fathers and their vision and actions.

Deputy Chief Command

ahh Australian sorry for the insult then ;)

but this being free thing doesnt sound right to me , obviously you are not from here, so all your knowledge on this is just hear say ,

I read this in this or that paper

this or that paper said this

and so on and on ,

over here we indeed have very strict laws wich forbid you to deny that the holocaust happened ,

this law imho has nothing to do with free speech ,

just like it wont be tolerated that you as an australian would write books, make tv documentaries or whatever, on how you think all aboriginals are the fillth of the earth or something ,

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Lev

The fucked up thing is that whenever the Holocaust is being questioned the whole world suddenly gets on its feet, but when Turkey denies and constantly questions the Armenian Genocide, nobody gives a shit. What Armenian lives are less important than Jewish?

Odin

Well I know exactly the laws you have, since I know we have similar laws here (very similar in fact). To question the Holocaust here also falls under the 'racial vilification act' which is essentially what you are arguing. What I am arguing however is that this is nonsense, and in fact that to deny free speech on the grounds of it being offensive to certain people is ridiculous. In my opinion the United States presents a clear cut working example of true Freedom of Speech. Of course current politicians have attempted to undermine it somewhat, but ultimately the 1st Amendment has provided Americans with a level of free speech that is unmatched anywhere in the world. Let me also say that the scope of such legislation (such as the racial vilification act here, and the related acts in Europe) stretches far beyong saying "Aboriginals are inferior scum". These laws, just like the recent 'sedition' laws in Australia have such far reaching and broad definitions that left-wing judges have repeatedly used them to convict people with quite more mild opinions.

Take for example the Vlaams Blok political party in Belgium (the largest single party in the nation), it was recently made illegal (of course they are back under a new name, but they were still deemed illegal). Take for example the current prosecution of Nick Griffin leader of the British National Party in Europe, he now faces 7 years (yes YEARS that is more than a pedophile) in jail for his opinions (none of which included the statement that other people were inferior).

Take for example this little website I came across the other day when surfing the web searching for some German Folk Music http://www.ingeb.org/ . The site which features 20,000 songs recently landed someone in Germany a 2,500 Euro fine. No it wasn't the owner of the site that got the fine, it was a German resident who linked to the site that received the fine, because it was deemed that one of the folk songs on the website broke German law, and thus he was guilty of breaking German law for linking to the website. Did the song shout how 'inferior the scum races of this earth are'? Nope, not at all, here are the reasons for indictment (read here to learn more http://www.ingeb.org/garb/SA2002.html)

"- Morally endanger German youth
- Social-ethically disorient youth before they have been properly indoctrinated to form their own opinion.
- Have no politically correct disclaimers
- Give an impression of happy life in WWII
- Honour as heroes, soldiers who achieved fame and glory by their achievements.

So yes I believe the United States has more freedom of speech, unquestionably, and I believe the gap is widening as anti-terrorist, anti-sedition, and other such laws are being implemented in other Western nations that don't have the safeguard provided by visionary hero's that the US has.

Deputy Chief Command

free speech has nothing to do with deliberately offending people




I hope you are fucking joking ! you have this view on the US that is not really in touch with reality it seems!!





funny , I a ctually AM from Belgium, and Vlaams Belang as they are called now are in fact big here and are in fact racist

I dont get what this has to do with free speech ?

does the KKK have its own political party in the US , ? ? would they want that YES ! would it be allowed ? ? NO




I must dissagree with this , your view on the US and Europe is an OUTSIDE view,

I think its safe to say most Americans who have visited Europe tend to agree with me

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Odin88

countdown till israel attacks.

Odin

It is your opinion that they are deliberately offending people, but mostly they are stating their opinions as they are what they believe. I am sure Nick Griffin didn't come out and say 'hey I feel like offending some dark people, lets dedicate my life to it, lets start a political party, lets risk going to jail for it'.

And what is your point? They are racist? You also have Communists running for Government in just about everyone European country. Some would say they should be outlawed also. For a racist party they sure do have a huge and growing influence there, and it seems quite likely that within 10-30 years Belgium won't even exist as a country because of them.

And you say I am the one who is out of touch with the reality of US freedom? Of course they would be allowed to do whatever they want in the US, including starting a political party if the wanted, and by law they couldn't and wouldn't be able to stop them.

Alot of American pornographers perhaps, but politically speaking you are wrong. Just know when you post pictures of girls getting fucked up the ass you are offending billions of Muslims and Christians in the world. And hey it's porn, most people "dont get what this has to do with free speech" right? Cool, they can lock you away and throw away the key!