Help me pick a Playette Of The Year - Who's the most respected woman in our biz? - GoFuckYourself.com

D-Money · 12-20-2005, 11:47 AM

I need some help here.

All of the Woody Award winners are picked, but this one.

So who is worthy?

I didn't want to make it "talent" based unless they also run their own site.

Help!

pornguy · 12-20-2005, 11:48 AM

I would have to vote for Czarina. Most of you dont know her, becase she does no live on the board.

But she gets my

Far-L · 12-20-2005, 11:55 AM

Gretchen at XBiz - worked hard to help make Xbiz the quality publication that it is today, rose from reporter to editor, humble, dedicated.

European Lee · 12-20-2005, 11:55 AM

Brand0ns feonsay of course

Regards,

Lee

D-Money · 12-20-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Far-L

Gretchen at XBiz - worked hard to help make Xbiz the quality publication that it is today, rose from reporter to editor, humble, dedicated.

Coming from a Big Woody award winner, that actually means more.

That's right, Far-L has a BIG WOODY.

And he's won our award too.

WonderWoman · 12-20-2005, 12:00 PM

LesboDojo from GUBA. She has had a history of just rocking in this biz. She gets my

.

Joesho · 12-20-2005, 12:02 PM

in no particular order.

Stephanie _ platinumbucks
Laurel
Leslie
Nakedswordholly
Chandie
Kimmy
Laura Lee
Allison _ topbucks

all deserve to be considered is my opinion, so there is some food for thought D$

Jman · 12-20-2005, 12:03 PM

Here's some taughts

Elli
Lesbodojo
Vanilla
Sunny Leone
Aly
KimmyKim
WebGurl

Makingcoin · 12-20-2005, 12:04 PM

Drinkinghard....

seeric · 12-20-2005, 12:04 PM

ramos is by far the most respected woman in the biz. lol

NetBabe · 12-20-2005, 12:07 PM

I have some serious competition here ...

Glad its not based on talent/content Id for sure lose LOL

baddog · 12-20-2005, 12:09 PM

Persian Kitty has to be up there

Also should be considered (no particular order):

XBiz Gretchen
Moss Sisters
Adult Broker LoriZ
Laurel - Flynt Digital
Tina Balina
Leslie Sharp

Will have to ponder this some more.

3xTom · 12-20-2005, 12:10 PM

netbabe
brandilove
and of course our own
Raven Riley

TheLegacy · 12-20-2005, 12:11 PM

Tina Ballina, Aly, Twinkley, Sweetums Funbrunette and Cyndalie

Mr. Jim · 12-20-2005, 12:11 PM

Laurel......Flynt Digital
Theresa Flynt.......LFP
Gretchen Gaylon....Xbiz
Bonnie Moss..........Bonnie Moss
Sunny Leone
Aly
Tina B

Joesho · 12-20-2005, 12:11 PM

I think it should be business/ hustler ability related, and not content or popularity at parties related. ( I mean why not have a different category for that side of things?)

Raja · 12-20-2005, 12:11 PM

Marina from Sexsearch has quietly built up an amazing network of traffic

NetBabe · 12-20-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3xlinks

netbabe
brandilove
and of course our own
Raven Riley

to be mentioned on the same line as raven wow Im truly honored Tom ! Love ya!

Vanilla DeVille · 12-20-2005, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMan

Here's some taughts

Elli
Lesbodojo
Vanilla
Sunny Leone
Aly
KimmyKim
WebGurl

Thanks so much for thinking of me!! May the Best Playette win!!

Mr. Jim · 12-20-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joesho

I think it should be business/ hustler ability related, and not content or popularity at parties related. ( I mean why not have a different category for that side of things?)

I absolutely agree it should be Hustler ability related

Joesho · 12-20-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoneyShotMadame

LesboDojo from GUBA. She has had a history of just rocking in this biz. She gets my

.

Isn't GUBA the comapny that steals content alllegedly? I saw something on another board about them and I have been shyed away every since, since content protection and copyrights actually mean something of importance to me.

is this the same company?

Rochard · 12-20-2005, 12:13 PM

Boobs and brains!

CT · 12-20-2005, 12:13 PM

Stephanie with Platinum Bucks has my vote

polle54 · 12-20-2005, 12:14 PM

pick me...

JFK · 12-20-2005, 12:16 PM

Some fine choices here, one that's missing is Lee Bucyk from Top Bucks

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE · 12-20-2005, 12:17 PM

Heya D$, we need a solo girl ( Site ) of the year award

But for Playette of the year, Xbiz Gretchen.

WonderWoman · 12-20-2005, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joesho

Isn't GUBA the comapny that steals content alllegedly? I saw something on another board about them and I have been shyed away every since, since content protection and copyrights actually mean something of importance to me.

is this the same company?

GUBA doesnt steal content. They merely archive USENET content. They are always working actively with content people to pull down anything that is stolen by USENET people and use image recognition software to keep it off. They are also working with premium content providers to put up their watermarked content.

So no... answer is...they dont steal.

bauhaus · 12-20-2005, 12:17 PM

Well its for the NETBABE no doubt......

this girl is ACES in my books

Met Steph years ago.. and she has been a wicked person to know in this business....has really helped me get to where I am today, She is a sale girl superstar.

Would we have heard of Platinum Bucks if it not for Steph? hmmmm theres something to chew on

SleazyDream · 12-20-2005, 12:19 PM

naughty ally

HammerALL · 12-20-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by serversyko

Stephanie with Platinum Bucks has my vote

Got to stick with the Team - Steph's the bomb

polle54 · 12-20-2005, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bauhaus

Well its for the NETBABE no doubt......

this girl is ACES in my books

Met Steph years ago.. and she has been a wicked person to know in this business....has really helped me get to where I am today, She is a sale girl superstar.

Would we have heard of Platinum Bucks if it not for Steph? hmmmm theres something to chew on

I used to work in bauhaus years back

the guy who owns that shit is a rich motherfucker and came visiting in his private jet from time to time

Why did you chose bauhaus as a nickname?

Holly Lez! · 12-20-2005, 12:22 PM

I icqed you my votes... It is a tough choice so many smart strong women!

pussyluver · 12-20-2005, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja

Marina from Sexsearch has quietly built up an amazing network of traffic

For sure!

EVILKID · 12-20-2005, 12:23 PM

netbabe ,,,
of course kristen and gretchen xbiz

and how could i fget the beautiful and so talented coworker of mine Cindy aka Porn Girl

Stewie · 12-20-2005, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Heya D$, we need a solo girl ( Site ) of the year award

Already have one: http://www.gofuckyourself.com/showthread.php?t=551675

Pete-KT · 12-20-2005, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A1R3K

ramos is by far the most respected woman in the biz. lol

I second that

Axeman · 12-20-2005, 12:30 PM

PK
Danni Ashe
Xbiz Gretchen
Shapette - very underrated
Marina from sexsearch

all very high on my list.

European Lee · 12-20-2005, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JFK

Some fine choices here, one that's missing is Lee Bucyk from Top Bucks

Agreed

Lee is class all the way

Regards,

Lee

Vanilla DeVille · 12-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlienQ

Heya D$, we need a solo girl ( Site ) of the year award

Hmmm... Who did win that one?

Holly Lez! · 12-20-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joesho

in no particular order.

Stephanie _ platinumbucks
Laurel
Leslie
Nakedswordholly
Chandie
Kimmy
Laura Lee
Allison _ topbucks

all deserve to be considered is my opinion, so there is some food for thought D$

Harley Girl · 12-20-2005, 12:32 PM

I have to agree with Joeshos about it not being a popularity contest. It should be based on accomplishments and achievements. Not who is the most popular on the board or at the parties... open a new category for that!

So having said that... my vote is for Netbabe. When I first started in the industry 3 years ago I worked under her and came in knowing NOTHING. She taught me the ropes, introduced to the people I needed to know and thanks to her I am doing very well in the biz. She has been around a hell of a lot longer then almost all the people I see around the boards and shows. She has worked for companies that has set precedence for some of the companies out there today. A very smart business woman who can hold her own - no questions asked, and would go out of her way to help anyone.

That sounds like the perfect woman for the award if you ask me!

GIANT THANKS TO YOU STEPH !

Holly Lez! · 12-20-2005, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanilla DeVille

Hmmm... Who did win that one?

My new crush! LOL

bauhaus · 12-20-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polle54

I used to work in bauhaus years back

the guy who owns that shit is a rich motherfucker and came visiting in his private jet from time to time

Why did you chose bauhaus as a nickname?

German Art School.... early 1900's
Lots of popular artistic ideals came from there... like for instance the 'skyscraper' was a school project.... made of glass ohhh my.

Seemed arty and fun at the time..... plus bauhaus the band is decent enough for a shout out to my goth daze

Steph Bump!!!!!! NetBabe gives me WOOD!!!

The Adult Broker · 12-20-2005, 12:39 PM

-Lee from TopBucks... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly, NakedSword... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly/Bonnie Moss... two of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Leslie Sharp...one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Laurel Hertz... ditto

-Gretchen from XBiz... ditto considering I remember her first day on the job

-NetBabe... ditto again because she is a major go getter

-Rainey...has turned to gold everything she touches

-Tina Ballina...she is a true vet

-Sunny Leone, Vanilla, NaughtyAllie, AimeeSweet,MartinaWarren, PrincessCameron because they all are business women with their own sites (and Oh girls)

- Joan Irvine for all her efforts

- Brandi Love for recognizing Parents in the industry and she is a business owner.

...to be continued

Holly Lez! · 12-20-2005, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Adult Broker

-Lee from TopBucks... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly, NakedSword... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly/Bonnie Moss... two of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Leslie Sharp...one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Laurel Hertz... ditto

-Gretchen from XBiz... ditto considering I remember her first day on the job

-NetBabe... ditto again because she is a major go getter

-Rainey...has turned to gold everything she touches

-Tina Ballina...she is a true vet

-Sunny Leone, Vanilla, NaughtyAllie, AimeeSweet,MartinaWarren, PrincessCameron because they all are business women with their own sites (and Oh girls)

- Joan Irvine for all her efforts

- Brandi Love for recognizing Parents in the industry and she is a business owner.

...to be continued

You forgot yourself

D-Money · 12-20-2005, 12:40 PM

I can tell you, I'm not picking a winner based off looks or as a popularity thing.

I want a true Playette of the Year, and industry person. Behind the scenes is just as good.

My decisions are based on the respect of your peers and your contributions to this biz.

And I can't be bought.

Great suggestions in here.

Vanilla DeVille · 12-20-2005, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nakedsword Holly

My new crush! LOL

justsexxx · 12-20-2005, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joesho

Isn't GUBA the comapny that steals content alllegedly? I saw something on another board about them and I have been shyed away every since, since content protection and copyrights actually mean something of importance to me.

is this the same company?

They don't steal content. They offer "easy" access to newsgroups where illegal porno is posted. This way the surfer don't have to join the paysite(s) anymore. They will remove images on request....But IMO that is like reselling stolen carradio's. When I say, HEY THAT IS MY RADIO, they will give it back. Otherwise bad luck..

Oh well, just my 2 cents...

VIPimp · 12-20-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raja

Marina from Sexsearch has quietly built up an amazing network of traffic

Marina has my vote.

aimeesweet · 12-20-2005, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Adult Broker

-Lee from TopBucks... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly, NakedSword... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Holly/Bonnie Moss... two of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Leslie Sharp...one of the smartest and hardest working women I know

-Laurel Hertz... ditto

-Gretchen from XBiz... ditto considering I remember her first day on the job

-NetBabe... ditto again because she is a major go getter

-Rainey...has turned to gold everything she touches

-Tina Ballina...she is a true vet

-Sunny Leone, Vanilla, NaughtyAllie, AimeeSweet,MartinaWarren, PrincessCameron because they all are business women with their own sites (and Oh girls)

- Joan Irvine for all her efforts

- Brandi Love for recognizing Parents in the industry and she is a business owner.

...to be continued

Thanks Lori.... but I think you definitely need to be considered for all your contributions to the biz!

xoxo

12-20-2005, 11:47 AM	#1
D-Money Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Player Del Ray Posts: 9,716	Help me pick a Playette Of The Year - Who's the most respected woman in our biz? I need some help here. All of the Woody Award winners are picked, but this one. So who is worthy? I didn't want to make it "talent" based unless they also run their own site. Help! __________________ Still Ballin'

12-20-2005, 11:48 AM	#2
pornguy Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Homeless Posts: 62,911	I would have to vote for Czarina. Most of you dont know her, becase she does no live on the board. But she gets my __________________ PornGuy skype me pornguy_epic AmateurDough The Hottes Shemales online! TChicks.com \| Angeles Cid \| Mariana Cordoba \| MAILERS WELCOME!

12-20-2005, 11:55 AM	#3
Far-L Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Seattle Posts: 6,065	Gretchen at XBiz - worked hard to help make Xbiz the quality publication that it is today, rose from reporter to editor, humble, dedicated. __________________ HomegrownCash.com, the affiliate program of Homegrown Video - The Largest Collection of Amateur XXX - Est. 1982. Contact - Email: farrell AT homegrownvideo D com Skype: hgfarl Newsweek Magazine - "Homegrown Video, the longest running series in the history of porn."

12-20-2005, 11:55 AM	#4
European Lee Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Daytona Beach Posts: 7,133	Brand0ns feonsay of course Regards, Lee __________________ YOUR TRAFFIC IS SAFE WITH US - CONDOM CASH PUTTING THE GAY ADULT INDUSTRY ON YOUR PC!! AFFORDABLE 2257 COMPLIANT GAY + BI CONTENT

12-20-2005, 12:00 PM	#6
WonderWoman Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: LA Posts: 1,439	LesboDojo ROCKS!! LesboDojo from GUBA. She has had a history of just rocking in this biz. She gets my . __________________ Lubna ICQ: 321946016

12-20-2005, 12:02 PM	#7
Joesho want to get in shape Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: on the lake Posts: 12,329	in no particular order. Stephanie _ platinumbucks Laurel Leslie Nakedswordholly Chandie Kimmy Laura Lee Allison _ topbucks all deserve to be considered is my opinion, so there is some food for thought D$ __________________ Got any domains to sell? I proudly host all my stuff at www.rackco.com

12-20-2005, 12:03 PM	#8
Jman Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Canuckstikan Posts: 22,768	Here's some taughts Elli Lesbodojo Vanilla Sunny Leone Aly KimmyKim WebGurl __________________ email: [email protected] Best AI Affiliate Program We also do WL at $0.00 upfront costs FantasyXXX.AI Teams: jean.francois.laverdiere TG: @jman1216

12-20-2005, 12:04 PM	#9
Makingcoin Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Ditch Posts: 8,919	Drinkinghard.... __________________ www.MAKINGCOIN.com icq. 166-662-831 "Start making large coin!" Daddy I Get Paid To Be A Whore - Coming Soon

12-20-2005, 12:04 PM	#10
seeric .......... Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: .......... Posts: 41,917	ramos is by far the most respected woman in the biz. lol

12-20-2005, 12:07 PM	#11
NetBabe Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 348	I have some serious competition here ... Glad its not based on talent/content Id for sure lose LOL __________________ NetBabe wickedbucks.com wickedpictures.com Last edited by NetBabe; 12-20-2005 at 12:09 PM..

12-20-2005, 12:09 PM	#12
baddog So Fucking Banned Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: the beach, SoCal Posts: 107,089	Persian Kitty has to be up there Also should be considered (no particular order): XBiz Gretchen Moss Sisters Adult Broker LoriZ Laurel - Flynt Digital Tina Balina Leslie Sharp Will have to ponder this some more.

12-20-2005, 12:10 PM	#13
3xTom Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 1,610	netbabe brandilove and of course our own Raven Riley

12-20-2005, 12:11 PM	#14
TheLegacy SEO Connoisseur Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Brantford, Ontario Posts: 17,111	Tina Ballina, Aly, Twinkley, Sweetums Funbrunette and Cyndalie __________________ SEO Connoisseur Microsoft Teams: Robert Warren SEO Telegram: @TheLegacy54 RobertWarrenSEO.com

12-20-2005, 12:11 PM	#15
Mr. Jim Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 4,372	Laurel......Flynt Digital Theresa Flynt.......LFP Gretchen Gaylon....Xbiz Bonnie Moss..........Bonnie Moss Sunny Leone Aly Tina B

12-20-2005, 12:11 PM	#17
Raja Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Santa Margarita Posts: 1,094	Marina from Sexsearch has quietly built up an amazing network of traffic __________________ Skype: hollywoodraja

12-20-2005, 12:13 PM	#22
Rochard Jägermeister Test Pilot Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: NORCAL Posts: 74,036	Boobs and brains! __________________ “The choice is no longer between right or left. The choice is between normal and crazy.” - Sarah Huckabee Sanders YNOT MAIL \| THE BEST ADULT MAILING SOLUTION

12-20-2005, 12:13 PM	#23
CT Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 513	Stephanie with Platinum Bucks has my vote __________________ ICQ: 34416048

12-20-2005, 12:14 PM	#24
polle54 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: The Beach Posts: 4,626	pick me... __________________ ICQ# 143561781

12-20-2005, 12:16 PM	#25
JFK FUBAR the ORIGINATOR Industry Role: Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: FUBARLAND Posts: 67,374	Some fine choices here, one that's missing is Lee Bucyk from Top Bucks __________________ FUBAR Webmasters - The FUBAR Times - FUBAR Webmasters Mobile - FUBARTV.XXX For promo opps contact jfk at fubarwebmasters dot com

12-20-2005, 12:17 PM	#26
AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE best designer on GFY Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: IALIEN.COM - High Definition Video and Photographic Productions -ICQ 78943384 Posts: 30,307	Heya D$, we need a solo girl ( Site ) of the year award But for Playette of the year, Xbiz Gretchen. __________________ NAKED HOSTING FTW!11 I'm On The INSANE PLAN $9.95/mo! \| The Alien Blog Adult News Worth Reading Updated Daily \| Content For Sale! 641 PICS 216 MINUTES OF VIDEO $350.00 \|ICQ: 78943384 \|

12-20-2005, 12:17 PM	#28
bauhaus Confirmed User Join Date: May 2001 Location: Costa Rica Posts: 773	Well its for the NETBABE no doubt...... this girl is ACES in my books Met Steph years ago.. and she has been a wicked person to know in this business....has really helped me get to where I am today, She is a sale girl superstar. Would we have heard of Platinum Bucks if it not for Steph? hmmmm theres something to chew on __________________ Insane, Color and Instant Sensation REalize the potential of dynamic coded features all in real time Vivid Php Code This is the reality of Outsoursouring SKype HolyBauhaus Deep, Deep in the Tropical Dry Rainforest.

12-20-2005, 12:19 PM	#29
SleazyDream I'm here for SPORT Industry Role: Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phone # (401) 285-0696 Posts: 41,470	naughty ally __________________ This dog, is dog, a dog, good dog, way dog, to dog, keep dog, an dog, idiot dog, busy dog, for dog, 20 dog, seconds dog! Now read without the word dog.

12-20-2005, 12:22 PM	#32
Holly Lez! She's back Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 3,480	I icqed you my votes... It is a tough choice so many smart strong women! __________________ [email protected] Skype: hollyruprecht

12-20-2005, 12:23 PM	#34
EVILKID Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MONTREAL Posts: 30	well well netbabe ,,, of course kristen and gretchen xbiz and how could i fget the beautiful and so talented coworker of mine Cindy aka Porn Girl __________________ Gay Braincash ICQ: 339.087.926

12-20-2005, 12:30 PM	#37
Axeman Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Swamp Posts: 5,201	PK Danni Ashe Xbiz Gretchen Shapette - very underrated Marina from sexsearch all very high on my list.

12-20-2005, 12:32 PM	#41
Harley Girl Confirmed User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: I Love MikeHawk! Posts: 864	I have to agree with Joeshos about it not being a popularity contest. It should be based on accomplishments and achievements. Not who is the most popular on the board or at the parties... open a new category for that! So having said that... my vote is for Netbabe. When I first started in the industry 3 years ago I worked under her and came in knowing NOTHING. She taught me the ropes, introduced to the people I needed to know and thanks to her I am doing very well in the biz. She has been around a hell of a lot longer then almost all the people I see around the boards and shows. She has worked for companies that has set precedence for some of the companies out there today. A very smart business woman who can hold her own - no questions asked, and would go out of her way to help anyone. That sounds like the perfect woman for the award if you ask me! GIANT THANKS TO YOU STEPH ! __________________ SMASHBUCKS Paying webmasters on-time, every-time since 2001! ICQ: 236075443

12-20-2005, 12:39 PM	#44
The Adult Broker Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The World Posts: 5,265	-Lee from TopBucks... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know -Holly, NakedSword... one of the smartest and hardest working women I know -Holly/Bonnie Moss... two of the smartest and hardest working women I know -Leslie Sharp...one of the smartest and hardest working women I know -Laurel Hertz... ditto -Gretchen from XBiz... ditto considering I remember her first day on the job -NetBabe... ditto again because she is a major go getter -Rainey...has turned to gold everything she touches -Tina Ballina...she is a true vet -Sunny Leone, Vanilla, NaughtyAllie, AimeeSweet,MartinaWarren, PrincessCameron because they all are business women with their own sites (and Oh girls) - Joan Irvine for all her efforts - Brandi Love for recognizing Parents in the industry and she is a business owner. ...to be continued __________________ Gamma Entertainment \| \| Camz \| Fleshbot\| TheMobileBroker AdultShowsOnly Lori Z., The Adult Broker \| theadultbroker.com \| [email protected] \| The Mobile Broker \| themobilebroker.com \| [email protected] \|-Adult's ONE stop MOBILE shop ICQ: 289567792

12-20-2005, 12:40 PM	#46
D-Money Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Player Del Ray Posts: 9,716	I can tell you, I'm not picking a winner based off looks or as a popularity thing. I want a true Playette of the Year, and industry person. Behind the scenes is just as good. My decisions are based on the respect of your peers and your contributions to this biz. And I can't be bought. Great suggestions in here. __________________ Still Ballin'