Tookie Williams deserves death. - Page 3 - GoFuckYourself.com

SilverTab · 12-13-2005, 12:41 AM

60k a year to keep an inmate....that's more than 1k/week...

they should send them to a Club Med, its cheaper...

edit: 100 (probably dead) tookie

TraZz · 12-13-2005, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTab

60k a year to keep an inmate....that's more than 1k/week...

they should send them to a Club Med, its cheaper...

edit: 100 (probably dead) tookie

20 minutes more and hes a gonner.

King Adam · 12-13-2005, 01:02 AM

So is it done? How long does this take. Are there any cameras aloud in there?

2bet Pat · 12-13-2005, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraZz

20 minutes more and hes a gonner.

woo hoo!! justice will be done in a few minutes from now. it's time to think about the victims not the murderer

2bet Pat · 12-13-2005, 01:11 AM

When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dust pan down and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward followed Owens into the store. (TT 2146-2152). As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." (TT 2154). While pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. (TT 2154).

Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****." Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then fired again into Owens' back. (TT 2162).

yeah let's keep this guy alive with tax dollars....he can write more kids books

emthree · 12-13-2005, 01:15 AM

Just wanted to add to this thread that if this dude was white or rich, the situation would not be the same.

TraZz · 12-13-2005, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emthree

Just wanted to add to this thread that if this dude was white or rich, the situation would not be the same.

It wouldnt be the same if he was rich and black as well. Does OJ ring a bell?

TraZz · 12-13-2005, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TraZz

It wouldnt be the same if he was rich and black as well. Does OJ ring a bell?

Forgot to mention that Tookster has no more pulse.

baddog · 12-13-2005, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adultchica

I agree with that. I think in the last 10-12 years of his life he learned and became wiser and even almost peaceful. But killing 4 people and then beating people almost to their death it's hard to forget that.

I am not sure what to say on this I wouldn't want to have to decide someone's life or death on a jury.

All i can say is I hope he found his peace with God and within himself

25 years of appeals and the last 10 he suddenly decides to be a nice guy. I bet it was easy to get into your pants when you were single.

You would believe any bullshit thrown at you.

baddog · 12-13-2005, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeon

It's easy to kill a n1gger that was born and raised poor...you don't see DuPonts or Kennedys on death row.

There aint not rich people on death row. The only difference between us and iraq...we execute based on financial worth

How many blacks have been executed in the State of California?

V_RocKs · 12-13-2005, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BoyAlley

Am I the only anti death penalty person on here?

No, you are also not the only gay one either.

V_RocKs · 12-13-2005, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2bet Pat

When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dust pan down and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward followed Owens into the store. (TT 2146-2152). As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." (TT 2154). While pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. (TT 2154).

Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****." Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then fired again into Owens' back. (TT 2162).

yeah let's keep this guy alive with tax dollars....he can write more kids books

Who needs a childrens book when you have court records?

Pete-KT · 12-13-2005, 07:31 AM

yes he does, im glad he is dead now

RRACY · 12-13-2005, 07:42 AM

Kill a killer.

He never confessed anyway.

scoreman · 12-13-2005, 08:44 AM

Throughout the majority of my life I was for the death penalty. Those bastards deserve to die was my rationale. Eye for an eye and all that.

Then I went to work as a Public Defender right out of law school. I saw first hand how the justice system works here in the United States. From the misdemeanor level to Capital felony, I saw first hand how in many cases convictions were obtained through very questionable means. I have seen cops lie on the stand, I have seen jailhouse snitches who would say their mother did the crimes (even though she may have been in Antartica when the crime occurred) if they thought it would get them off. I have seen confessions obtained from borderline retarded defendants who were told after 12 hrs of interrogation that they would be sent home if they confessed. I have seen indentifications done where the cops showed them a defendants sitting in the back of a police car, handcuffed and asked "Is that the guy?". (later turned out to not be the guy even though the eyewitness claimed he was 100% sure) There are many people in prison right now who are innocent, I am 100% convinced on this.

Many of you might be familiar with the Innocence Project. For those not familiar let me bring them up as a case in point as to how flawed our system is. In 14 years of existence, the IP has exonerated 164 convicted and jailed persons, many of them who were on death row. Many spent as much as two or three decades jailed for crimes they did not commit. Ask yourself, if the system is so flawed that a small team of lawyers and law students can demonstrate the innoccence of 164 people in a short time period, how many people are currently awaiting execution that are innocent?

Anytime I see a conviction like Tookie Williams, where the evidence was circumstantial and he was largely convicted on the testimony of two criminal defendants who stood to benefit on their own sentences for their testimony, it raises my eyebrows. Combine that with the demonstrated history of actually doing good for the last ten years, so much good he was a multiple time nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, well yeah I tend to think that maybe this was a good case for clemency. Not a pardon, just convert his sentence to life in prison.

nico-t · 12-13-2005, 08:58 AM

good post scoreman

phogirl69 · 12-13-2005, 09:46 AM

for you guys that think he doesn't deserve to die you should look at this pic of one of his victims

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogim...ctim3adweb.jpg

There's more on the mainpage of that site.

its extremely gruesome, half her head is blown off , I mean a quarter of her head is gone and so is her eye, it's really really bad.

To think that he can do this to another person, he deservers the death penalty for sure..

And those pics are gruesome, i'm gonna have nightmares now

AcidMax · 12-13-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Adam

I don't know what to think. Most of the people in prison will never rehabilitate ... ever. All we do is waste more money and taxes on these losers when we could be spending it more wisely.

I don't think we have the right to "play god" and take lives on a government level. But I do believe that if someone kills another, they deserve to pay.

What about punishing people with paralysis. You kill someone or rape someone, the government takes away your ability to rape or kill again. Without the use or arms or legs, it would make it pretty damn hard. Then they can live the rest of their lives in punishment for what they did. Sometimes I think death is an easier way out.

That's no good either, then the taxpayers have to support this knucklehead in other ways. Then he gets bed sores, infections, etc., because he cannot turn over in bed and we spend more money medicating people like this.

SilverTab · 12-13-2005, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phogirl69

for you guys that think he doesn't deserve to die you should look at this pic of one of his victims

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogim...ctim3adweb.jpg

There's more on the mainpage of that site.

its extremely gruesome, half her head is blown off , I mean a quarter of her head is gone and so is her eye, it's really really bad.

To think that he can do this to another person, he deservers the death penalty for sure..

And those pics are gruesome, i'm gonna have nightmares now

no one is really pretty after getting shot by a shotgun...

doesn't change my mind about death penality...

are you saying that if he killed them in a clean way...(poisoning them maybe??) then he wouldn't deserve to die?

Marshal · 12-13-2005, 10:06 AM

killer is a killer, but i'm against death penalty...

AcidMax · 12-13-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scoreman

Throughout the majority of my life I was for the death penalty. Those bastards deserve to die was my rationale. Eye for an eye and all that.

Then I went to work as a Public Defender right out of law school. I saw first hand how the justice system works here in the United States. From the misdemeanor level to Capital felony, I saw first hand how in many cases convictions were obtained through very questionable means. I have seen cops lie on the stand, I have seen jailhouse snitches who would say their mother did the crimes (even though she may have been in Antartica when the crime occurred) if they thought it would get them off. I have seen confessions obtained from borderline retarded defendants who were told after 12 hrs of interrogation that they would be sent home if they confessed. I have seen indentifications done where the cops showed them a defendants sitting in the back of a police car, handcuffed and asked "Is that the guy?". (later turned out to not be the guy even though the eyewitness claimed he was 100% sure) There are many people in prison right now who are innocent, I am 100% convinced on this.

Many of you might be familiar with the Innocence Project. For those not familiar let me bring them up as a case in point as to how flawed our system is. In 14 years of existence, the IP has exonerated 164 convicted and jailed persons, many of them who were on death row. Many spent as much as two or three decades jailed for crimes they did not commit. Ask yourself, if the system is so flawed that a small team of lawyers and law students can demonstrate the innoccence of 164 people in a short time period, how many people are currently awaiting execution that are innocent?

Anytime I see a conviction like Tookie Williams, where the evidence was circumstantial and he was largely convicted on the testimony of two criminal defendants who stood to benefit on their own sentences for their testimony, it raises my eyebrows. Combine that with the demonstrated history of actually doing good for the last ten years, so much good he was a multiple time nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, well yeah I tend to think that maybe this was a good case for clemency. Not a pardon, just convert his sentence to life in prison.

I am glad you saw the legal side of things, that is a noble profession, but I think you might be missing out on a couple things. 1. How many of those people from the IP got off due to actually not being guilty as opposed to good attorneys finding loopholes in the case and getting them off? 2. What GOOD did Tookie Williams actually do? He wrote a couple childrens books that sold < 1000 copies from what I understand.

From an article posted at: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...DG5TG04SF1.DTL

Quote:

Let me add a few things you may not know: The not all-white jury convicted Williams after his alibi defense crumbled. Also, jurors had learned of Williams' plans for an armed escape from jail. The jury foreman testified that when the guilty verdict was announced, Williams mouthed this threat to the panel: "I'm going to get each and every one of you mother -- ."

Continue to read on there, is alot more to this guys past than what people are choosing to believe. This to me doesn't sound like someone who should win the peace prize, especially since he has harmed people in prison. Reformed, my ass.

phogirl69 · 12-13-2005, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverTab

no one is really pretty after getting shot by a shotgun...

doesn't change my mind about death penality...

are you saying that if he killed them in a clean way...(poisoning them maybe??) then he wouldn't deserve to die?

No, it's just as bad if he killed them in a clean way.. it's just that when I hear people saying someone got shot I don't really think much about it and I'm desensitized to it because I hear it so often on the news and it sounds "clean" already because I've never seen the actual up close pics so I don't realize how "dirty" or graphic it really is.

I haven't seen any other pics of people shot at close-range (and I really don't want to either) so I didn't realize that it would look THAT bad, I just assumed that those pics I posted were worst, because I can't imagine anything really worse than that already.

It just looks really bad. Now I'm all phobic and paranoid about dying violently... Plus the way they described it on the site, on one of the victims they said the bullet penetrated his spleen, kidney, bowels, large vessels...

I mean i know it's bad when someone gets shot but i never really thought of the specifics like all the body parts it would/could penetrate and damage. It just sounds really painful and its gruesome looking, I think I'm kind of traumatized now

scoreman · 12-13-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AcidMax

I am glad you saw the legal side of things, that is a noble profession, but I think you might be missing out on a couple things. 1. How many of those people from the IP got off due to actually not being guilty as opposed to good attorneys finding loopholes in the case and getting them off? 2. What GOOD did Tookie Williams actually do? He wrote a couple childrens books that sold < 1000 copies from what I understand.

Post conviction relief is alot more difficult than you would imagine. Layman always seem to believe that the system is riddled with loopholes that allow people to get off. Then when its their brother or son or husband facing conviction, they are furious that a loophole is not available. It's all a matter of perspective, I guess.

The Innocence Project is not what you think. ALL of the 164 exonerations were cases were DNA evidence proved conclusively that there was an innocent man behind bars. Read up on this group, they are worth ten minutes of your time to see some good in the world. www.innocenceproject.org

Screaming · 12-13-2005, 10:45 AM

well he is dead from what i heard on the radio this morning

jade_dragon · 12-13-2005, 12:03 PM

You know it is not really that hard not to murder people. Poor, black, asian, white, rich otherwise murderers are a minority for a reason. His deeds as a crip will be celebrated by those who live that lifestyle, his last few years will be spit on for living contrary to gang mentality and being a sell out. His books may have saved some kids from simular lifestyles and that is a good thing but irrelivent, this crap that people have about how all good deeds are rewarded is a weakness that leads many people to lives of deprevity and patheticness. You do not get a cookie in the big boy world for doing shit you are supposed to do, you do them and your reward is knowing you did it and a better quality of life.

I seriously doubt there will be organized riots over this. This situation is drastically differant than any other example that "caused" them in the past. This is about a man who did bad things, he may or may not have done the ones he will be put to death on (of course you either shot someone with a shotgun or you did not, not exactly impossible to prove or not), but he has done other bad things that were reprehensable and because of that the majority of people will not feel outrage on this matter, and without that outrage there is no common feeling for a need to lash out. Simply not enough people to "gang" up, no pun intended. There is no magical synapsis between blacks, do not let the movies of the 70's fool you, all that soul brother shit died out a long time ago. Rioting in an area because a bunch of cops get off on a charge of beating the shit out of someone is far differant than a person who was bad paying for it even though he is "good" now. Not saying it was right but they rioted because they were revolting against a system that they felt was no longer in their minds working for them but against them and only by violence could they fight against it. did it work? that is arguable, just because we do not hear of more beatings does not mean they do not happen, there was a beating by a cop in New Orleans post Katrina but how many cops now think a little harder before they act because of the riots in LA?

There is no better way to get a point out than to die for it, his books were a good thing, now he will martyr them, in death he will now have a legacy, his name has a better chance of living on and so does his message. His death without the books would still be a good lesson honestly, him getting off would send a message that if you clean up nice you can get off, alrady you have people not worrying about the concequences of their actions, this would not help that at all. Every gangsta knows the rules, you live and die by the street life, the major problem he had when he was convited was that his death will come without the glory of being mowed down in the streets, they think of themselves as urban soldiers as warriors, what soldier wants to die outside of battle with no honor? Everyday he lived he knew there was a chance he could die, but he always expected to go out hard, jail time gave him a chance to realize that was as stupid as the rest of us see it, he does not get off because of his enlightenment to this fact

As far as we americans and the way we live and human rights, Tookie had all the rights of any other american man born here. He had all the chances that his parents worked for, the same can be said of any man here. Their inequities put him in a bad situation, his choices kept him there! He had the ability same as any of us to make something of his life, he may have had a harder time of it because of his surroundings but none the less he had the chance and he made a choice that the majority of the people IN his surroundings did not make. Human rights means nothing more than that, you are born here, the government will not make you do anything but co-exist with those around you peacefully through a series of laws and concequences for those laws since God is not going to enforce his laws imemdiately. There is a bar set and all people who live their lives within the laws and system of this country will all have the same laws and confines. It DOES NOT mean when you break the law you are not punished, it means that you will not "suffer". When you violate this you pay here, when you violate it anywhere else, you pay there also. You take life here, in some places you die, you take life in many other places you also die, shit you die for less in some countries. There is no trick, there is no game, the laws have been set for a while, the concequences have been known just as long, if you do not like the laws of the land, change them through democratic means, or shut the hell up and live by them. what the hell is the argument here?

The laws are set for our issues, and our issues are influinced by our laws. Our freedoms give we americans more rope to hang ourselves with, that is the major differance between our societies. Our government tends to let us make more decisions that can be potentially bad because they do not limit the reagents, that is the "down" side of the democracy that you are misunderstanding. We have many powers and with those we have many responsibilities, Tookie dropped the ball, here the concequences for fumble is death, case closed. States that have a propensity for higher violent crimes tend to allow the death penalty, those with less tend not to. Each state and each area in the state has its own ability to set laws and standards, this is done on a per capita basis and also change based upon the life and lifestyle of that area, what is wrong with that? Is everything in your closet one size fits all, HELL NO, tailor made clothing FITS THE BEST now don't it, if it is like that in something as simple as clothing why do you think a far more complex sytem does not have the same needs?

I'm done here, flame on

12-13-2005, 12:41 AM	#101
SilverTab Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: MTL Posts: 5,060	60k a year to keep an inmate....that's more than 1k/week... they should send them to a Club Med, its cheaper... edit: 100 (probably dead) tookie __________________ mmm my sig was too big... no more cool animation but hey still! need php? ICQ: 94586959

12-13-2005, 01:02 AM	#103
King Adam Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Valley of the Sun Posts: 5,408	So is it done? How long does this take. Are there any cameras aloud in there? __________________ TWISTYSCASH.com - Proven to be One of the BEST Adult Programs Around Promote These Sites : Twistys ~ Busty Ones ~ Nicole Graves ICQ : 9 6 4 4 0 2 2 1

12-13-2005, 01:11 AM	#105
2bet Pat Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 565	When Darryl and Sims entered the 7-Eleven, Owens put the broom and dust pan down and followed them into the store. Williams and Coward followed Owens into the store. (TT 2146-2152). As Darryl and Sims walked to the counter area to take money from the register, Williams walked behind Owens and told him "shut up and keep walking." (TT 2154). While pointing a shotgun at Owens' back, Williams directed him to a back storage room. (TT 2154). Once inside the storage room, Williams, at gunpoint, ordered Owens to "lay down, mother f*****." Williams then chambered a round into the shotgun. Williams then fired the round into the security monitor. Williams then chambered a second round and fired the round into Owens' back as he lay face down on the floor of the storage room. Williams then fired again into Owens' back. (TT 2162). yeah let's keep this guy alive with tax dollars....he can write more kids books __________________ CLICK SIG FOR THE DAILY WEBMASTER POKER SCHEDULE ICQ: 590-428 Great deals on sex toys

12-13-2005, 01:15 AM	#106
emthree Dialer Kingpin Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: New York Posts: 10,816	Just wanted to add to this thread that if this dude was white or rich, the situation would not be the same. __________________ • Sell Patches & Pills •

12-13-2005, 07:42 AM	#114
RRACY Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,393	Kill a killer. He never confessed anyway. __________________ Sig Free

12-13-2005, 07:31 AM	#113
Pete-KT Workin With The Devil Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: West Bloomfield, MI Posts: 51,532	yes he does, im glad he is dead now

12-13-2005, 08:44 AM	#115
scoreman Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Miami, Florida Posts: 1,491	Throughout the majority of my life I was for the death penalty. Those bastards deserve to die was my rationale. Eye for an eye and all that. Then I went to work as a Public Defender right out of law school. I saw first hand how the justice system works here in the United States. From the misdemeanor level to Capital felony, I saw first hand how in many cases convictions were obtained through very questionable means. I have seen cops lie on the stand, I have seen jailhouse snitches who would say their mother did the crimes (even though she may have been in Antartica when the crime occurred) if they thought it would get them off. I have seen confessions obtained from borderline retarded defendants who were told after 12 hrs of interrogation that they would be sent home if they confessed. I have seen indentifications done where the cops showed them a defendants sitting in the back of a police car, handcuffed and asked "Is that the guy?". (later turned out to not be the guy even though the eyewitness claimed he was 100% sure) There are many people in prison right now who are innocent, I am 100% convinced on this. Many of you might be familiar with the Innocence Project. For those not familiar let me bring them up as a case in point as to how flawed our system is. In 14 years of existence, the IP has exonerated 164 convicted and jailed persons, many of them who were on death row. Many spent as much as two or three decades jailed for crimes they did not commit. Ask yourself, if the system is so flawed that a small team of lawyers and law students can demonstrate the innoccence of 164 people in a short time period, how many people are currently awaiting execution that are innocent? Anytime I see a conviction like Tookie Williams, where the evidence was circumstantial and he was largely convicted on the testimony of two criminal defendants who stood to benefit on their own sentences for their testimony, it raises my eyebrows. Combine that with the demonstrated history of actually doing good for the last ten years, so much good he was a multiple time nominee for the Nobel Peace Prize, well yeah I tend to think that maybe this was a good case for clemency. Not a pardon, just convert his sentence to life in prison. __________________ Last edited by scoreman; 12-13-2005 at 08:47 AM..

12-13-2005, 08:58 AM	#116
nico-t emperor of my world Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: nethalands Posts: 29,903	good post scoreman

12-13-2005, 09:46 AM	#117
phogirl69 Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2001 Posts: 3,330	for you guys that think he doesn't deserve to die you should look at this pic of one of his victims http://www.johnandkenshow.com/blogim...ctim3adweb.jpg There's more on the mainpage of that site. its extremely gruesome, half her head is blown off , I mean a quarter of her head is gone and so is her eye, it's really really bad. To think that he can do this to another person, he deservers the death penalty for sure.. And those pics are gruesome, i'm gonna have nightmares now Last edited by phogirl69; 12-13-2005 at 09:49 AM..

12-13-2005, 10:06 AM	#120
Marshal Biz Dev and SEO Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,181	killer is a killer, but i'm against death penalty... __________________ --- Busy ranking websites on Google...

12-13-2005, 10:45 AM	#124
Screaming I can change this!!!!! Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 18,972	well he is dead from what i heard on the radio this morning __________________

12-13-2005, 12:03 PM	#125
jade_dragon Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: NEW ORLEANS/Baton Rouge BABY! Posts: 1,737	You know it is not really that hard not to murder people. Poor, black, asian, white, rich otherwise murderers are a minority for a reason. His deeds as a crip will be celebrated by those who live that lifestyle, his last few years will be spit on for living contrary to gang mentality and being a sell out. His books may have saved some kids from simular lifestyles and that is a good thing but irrelivent, this crap that people have about how all good deeds are rewarded is a weakness that leads many people to lives of deprevity and patheticness. You do not get a cookie in the big boy world for doing shit you are supposed to do, you do them and your reward is knowing you did it and a better quality of life. I seriously doubt there will be organized riots over this. This situation is drastically differant than any other example that "caused" them in the past. This is about a man who did bad things, he may or may not have done the ones he will be put to death on (of course you either shot someone with a shotgun or you did not, not exactly impossible to prove or not), but he has done other bad things that were reprehensable and because of that the majority of people will not feel outrage on this matter, and without that outrage there is no common feeling for a need to lash out. Simply not enough people to "gang" up, no pun intended. There is no magical synapsis between blacks, do not let the movies of the 70's fool you, all that soul brother shit died out a long time ago. Rioting in an area because a bunch of cops get off on a charge of beating the shit out of someone is far differant than a person who was bad paying for it even though he is "good" now. Not saying it was right but they rioted because they were revolting against a system that they felt was no longer in their minds working for them but against them and only by violence could they fight against it. did it work? that is arguable, just because we do not hear of more beatings does not mean they do not happen, there was a beating by a cop in New Orleans post Katrina but how many cops now think a little harder before they act because of the riots in LA? There is no better way to get a point out than to die for it, his books were a good thing, now he will martyr them, in death he will now have a legacy, his name has a better chance of living on and so does his message. His death without the books would still be a good lesson honestly, him getting off would send a message that if you clean up nice you can get off, alrady you have people not worrying about the concequences of their actions, this would not help that at all. Every gangsta knows the rules, you live and die by the street life, the major problem he had when he was convited was that his death will come without the glory of being mowed down in the streets, they think of themselves as urban soldiers as warriors, what soldier wants to die outside of battle with no honor? Everyday he lived he knew there was a chance he could die, but he always expected to go out hard, jail time gave him a chance to realize that was as stupid as the rest of us see it, he does not get off because of his enlightenment to this fact As far as we americans and the way we live and human rights, Tookie had all the rights of any other american man born here. He had all the chances that his parents worked for, the same can be said of any man here. Their inequities put him in a bad situation, his choices kept him there! He had the ability same as any of us to make something of his life, he may have had a harder time of it because of his surroundings but none the less he had the chance and he made a choice that the majority of the people IN his surroundings did not make. Human rights means nothing more than that, you are born here, the government will not make you do anything but co-exist with those around you peacefully through a series of laws and concequences for those laws since God is not going to enforce his laws imemdiately. There is a bar set and all people who live their lives within the laws and system of this country will all have the same laws and confines. It DOES NOT mean when you break the law you are not punished, it means that you will not "suffer". When you violate this you pay here, when you violate it anywhere else, you pay there also. You take life here, in some places you die, you take life in many other places you also die, shit you die for less in some countries. There is no trick, there is no game, the laws have been set for a while, the concequences have been known just as long, if you do not like the laws of the land, change them through democratic means, or shut the hell up and live by them. what the hell is the argument here? The laws are set for our issues, and our issues are influinced by our laws. Our freedoms give we americans more rope to hang ourselves with, that is the major differance between our societies. Our government tends to let us make more decisions that can be potentially bad because they do not limit the reagents, that is the "down" side of the democracy that you are misunderstanding. We have many powers and with those we have many responsibilities, Tookie dropped the ball, here the concequences for fumble is death, case closed. States that have a propensity for higher violent crimes tend to allow the death penalty, those with less tend not to. Each state and each area in the state has its own ability to set laws and standards, this is done on a per capita basis and also change based upon the life and lifestyle of that area, what is wrong with that? Is everything in your closet one size fits all, HELL NO, tailor made clothing FITS THE BEST now don't it, if it is like that in something as simple as clothing why do you think a far more complex sytem does not have the same needs? I'm done here, flame on __________________ even ADULTS need TOYS icq: 3 6 3 2 6 6 6 7 \| aim: conglomorateman open for business, affiliates and friendships