HD or DV - seriouse posts only - GoFuckYourself.com

Nydahl · 12-07-2005, 01:27 PM

So what do you think ?
Just people knowing what they are talking about pls

don't forget the facts
HD is still very complicated to work with
The final pic results are not as much different
16:9 is not always welcome

luedi · 12-07-2005, 01:32 PM

well lets put it that way i have just rendered 190+ clips DV which took me three times as long as when i render 16 hd clips for one our exclusive customers - so time is money right?!
on the other hand it will give greant quality which will definetely be asked for in the (near) future - so my guess is it will stay tough to work with hd for a while but once peripherials and software becomes adapt to it - it will be the shit
it'll take a while - worthwhile...i think so...and than again for internet presentation what do you need hd for it really only makes sense for dvd prod.

HDADULT · 12-07-2005, 01:35 PM

If you are shooting for the future and plan too utilize the content for many years, then why wouldnt you shoot in HD? You can allways down convert but you cannot up convert.

Nydahl · 12-07-2005, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luedi

well lets put it that way i have just rendered 190+ clips DV which took me three times as long as when i render 16 hd clips for one our exclusive customers - so time is money right?!
on the other hand it will give greant quality which will definetely be asked for in the (near) future - so my guess is it will stay tough to work with hd for a while but once peripherials and software becomes adapt to it - it will be the shit
it'll take a while - worthwhile...i think so...and than again for internet presentation what do you need hd for it really only makes sense for dvd prod.

true
future is in HD but software and even hardware is not ready for comfort. work with yet

Nydahl · 12-07-2005, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDADULT

If you are shooting for the future and plan too utilize the content for many years, then why wouldnt you shoot in HD? You can allways down convert but you cannot up convert.

from my experiences of content provider - anything produced 2 years ago is old

Theo · 12-07-2005, 01:52 PM

we shoot everything in HD now, it's better quality and that's enough factor. Processing takes years, but we are still young

andrej_NDC · 12-07-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soul_Rebel

Processing takes years, but we are still young

Dirty Dane · 12-07-2005, 02:02 PM

So what is "HD" anyway today?

My DVD player has HDMI output with 1080i. My Flat HDTV has 1920 x 1080.
.....but best digitalized DVD has what? like 576p. It looks good, but still not what you call real HD.
No fense, but with a DVI connection to this TV, I can see that no one is producing real HD.
Talked to some nerd about this, and he said its not up to hollywood or the TV producers, but Sony (playstation) before its realized

SquireMD · 12-07-2005, 02:02 PM

what would you say is the minimum system required to work with HDV? (ie: dualcore g5, 2 gig ram blah blah blah)

Theo · 12-07-2005, 02:04 PM

hehe anyone remember when fantasyman posted a raw HDV file (7-8min) of a porn shoot some 2-3 years ago? I don't recall the exact filesize, but it was huge and you couldn't play it on most computers.

leg4 · 12-07-2005, 02:41 PM

I work with HD (hdv) and its no big problem...

Raw HDV files are 13gigs per hour just like DV... so storage is not a problem.

You must have a fast system to work with raw HDV though...

I work with a dual Xeon 3.4mhz with 2gigs ram.

Compression is fantastic... using wmvHD compression...

It looks great and the file sizes are reasonable...

If you have any questions, or would just like to talk about video and editing...

EMAIL ME BELOW

Dirty Dane · 12-07-2005, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

If you have any questions, or would just like to talk about video and editing...

When do we see HD DVDs

MaxCandy · 12-07-2005, 02:51 PM

You asking about true HD or HDV?

HDV cam is about a 5000USD camera

True HD cams run 75,000USD
OVERALL HD FORMATS:
"HD" is a general term and it covers all the Hi Def formats including HDV really. But most people, at least most working professionals in film or broadcast, when they are referring to HD are talking about material acquired on HD Vision, HDcam, DVCProHD, Viper, or HDcam SR (or acquired on film and converted to one of those formats) using a picture size of 1920x1080 or 1280x720 and color sampling of at least 4:2:2 (HDcam is 3:1:1, but that's the exception).

COMPETING HDV FORMATS:
HDV refers to a tape format that was really designed to be the replacement for DV, but for once the industry replaced a format with another format that uses the same tapes...hurray! On a DV videocassette, you can get two types of HDV footage: 1440x1080 frame size (as opposed to HD formats with 1920x1080), which has the same data rate as DV (25 megabits per second) but uses MPEG compression to create 15 frame (NTSC successor); or another popular HDV format uses 12 frame (PAL successor) groups of pictures or "GOPs." The basic compromise here is image quality as the image compression is very aggressive, a necessity to fit that much picture on a DV cassette.

luedi · 12-07-2005, 03:28 PM

i believe the point is very simple - progress comes with development there used to be this, than came that and what we got now is another "system" again - its like that with everything. So whats the point here? If you want to be on top you are going to be up to date, if you cant afford it yet or if you arent convinced that it will benefit your business you will wait until its right for you.
HD is out there for a while now and its a format that is pushing aside dv in the long run one way or the other...for what its worth, i guess and that is better quality for all ;)

Cory W · 12-07-2005, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDADULT

If you are shooting for the future and plan too utilize the content for many years, then why wouldnt you shoot in HD? You can allways down convert but you cannot up convert.

Interesting, I have tried to down convert and the files look terrible.

Not questioning you as I am sure you know a lot more than I do, but just curious as to how you do it and how clean the results are?

tony286 · 12-07-2005, 03:36 PM

HDV is not HD its a format that big corporations are pushing down our throats as the future and its not. TV is still shooting in Betacam and SD. I have yet to see a hdv image that blew me away. Wait until til a few generations of cameras and technology come out. Remember Hi 8 ? That was going to be the future too.

Nydahl · 12-07-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

I work with HD (hdv) and its no big problem...

Raw HDV files are 13gigs per hour just like DV... so storage is not a problem.

You must have a fast system to work with raw HDV though...

I work with a dual Xeon 3.4mhz with 2gigs ram.

Compression is fantastic... using wmvHD compression...

It looks great and the file sizes are reasonable...

If you have any questions, or would just like to talk about video and editing...

EMAIL ME BELOW

no need - have my video guys.Anyway the only problem for me is processing time - its no funny if you push out 10 new scenes weekly + you must work the older stuff for updates ......need more time , more people
Spends for equipment is nothing comparing the pay outs for employees

Loch · 12-07-2005, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nydahl

no need - have my video guys.Anyway the only problem for me is processing time - its no funny if you push out 10 new scenes weekly + you must work the older stuff for updates ......need more time , more people
Spends for equipment is nothing comparing the pay outs for employees

Get a couple more computers Nydahl, better then employees as its just processing....
I have to go and get 1-2 more next week for this purpose, it is time consuming but if you have the comps its no problem.
No 1 PC will do if you have volume no matter how big it is.

luedi · 12-07-2005, 03:51 PM

excactly!!!

Nydahl · 12-08-2005, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loch

Get a couple more computers Nydahl, better then employees as its just processing....
I have to go and get 1-2 more next week for this purpose, it is time consuming but if you have the comps its no problem.
No 1 PC will do if you have volume no matter how big it is.

basicly you are right but....
I got 7 machines here and as I said its not just about few bucks for PCs.Some1 has to put the stuff in , some1 has to check it out + some1 has to organize that for updates , some1 has to organize 2257docs , some1 has to organize that for library and storage.
I got like 500-600 scenes here non exclusive that I sell and update on ACC + I keep backups for like 400-500 scenes that I have produced for custom-excl.
Its not so easy as "just buy more machines".

phonesex · 12-08-2005, 04:59 AM

HD all the way!!

vidvicious · 12-08-2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxCandy

You asking about true HD or HDV?

HDV cam is about a 5000USD camera

True HD cams run 75,000USD
OVERALL HD FORMATS:
"HD" is a general term and it covers all the Hi Def formats including HDV really. But most people, at least most working professionals in film or broadcast, when they are referring to HD are talking about material acquired on HD Vision, HDcam, DVCProHD, Viper, or HDcam SR (or acquired on film and converted to one of those formats) using a picture size of 1920x1080 or 1280x720 and color sampling of at least 4:2:2 (HDcam is 3:1:1, but that's the exception).

COMPETING HDV FORMATS:
HDV refers to a tape format that was really designed to be the replacement for DV, but for once the industry replaced a format with another format that uses the same tapes...hurray! On a DV videocassette, you can get two types of HDV footage: 1440x1080 frame size (as opposed to HD formats with 1920x1080), which has the same data rate as DV (25 megabits per second) but uses MPEG compression to create 15 frame (NTSC successor); or another popular HDV format uses 12 frame (PAL successor) groups of pictures or "GOPs." The basic compromise here is image quality as the image compression is very aggressive, a necessity to fit that much picture on a DV cassette.

You took the words right out of my mouth ...

I shoot HD for Broadcast clients However I don't shoot HDV rather I shoot HDCAM with a BVW 900 24p or HDPro on A 900 Pana ..

As for HDV my only experience with it this year was two films that I had to shoot and edit .. I found rendering to be a real pain at 6:1 min.
Also I found the format to be un perdicable and actually not ready for prime time yet. Thouhg many are jumping on the HD bandwagon, I tend to hold back. Mind you I do have some adult clients that require FX1 shoots, and I do Oblige mostly since editing and rendering isn't my problem ...

In short, wieght the pros and cons, Chances are you'll find time and hardware/software to out wiegh quality.

Just my 2 cents

rock-reed · 04-04-2006, 12:07 AM

HDV is looking nicer and nicer Mates...

Are surfers requesting it?

tony286 · 04-04-2006, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HDADULT

If you are shooting for the future and plan too utilize the content for many years, then why wouldnt you shoot in HD? You can allways down convert but you cannot up convert.

Yes you can upconvert http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/instanthd.html
What do you think they are going to do with all those older tv shows throw them out ? lol
Most are talking about hdv which is a sucky format. More important than the format is shooting hot ,well lit footage. Most gonzo guys will have a hard time with HD, its not as forgiving as sd.

tony286 · 04-04-2006, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxCandy

You asking about true HD or HDV?

HDV cam is about a 5000USD camera

True HD cams run 75,000USD
OVERALL HD FORMATS:
"HD" is a general term and it covers all the Hi Def formats including HDV really. But most people, at least most working professionals in film or broadcast, when they are referring to HD are talking about material acquired on HD Vision, HDcam, DVCProHD, Viper, or HDcam SR (or acquired on film and converted to one of those formats) using a picture size of 1920x1080 or 1280x720 and color sampling of at least 4:2:2 (HDcam is 3:1:1, but that's the exception).

COMPETING HDV FORMATS:
HDV refers to a tape format that was really designed to be the replacement for DV, but for once the industry replaced a format with another format that uses the same tapes...hurray! On a DV videocassette, you can get two types of HDV footage: 1440x1080 frame size (as opposed to HD formats with 1920x1080), which has the same data rate as DV (25 megabits per second) but uses MPEG compression to create 15 frame (NTSC successor); or another popular HDV format uses 12 frame (PAL successor) groups of pictures or "GOPs." The basic compromise here is image quality as the image compression is very aggressive, a necessity to fit that much picture on a DV cassette.

Not true the panny hvx200 shoots hd not hdv and its about 10 grand with everything.

skinnay · 04-04-2006, 12:46 AM

go with HIV

Ivana Fukalot · 04-04-2006, 01:08 AM

I am not an expert, but can say that we started to use HD (at my site) and the result- quality is Better!!!

KRL · 04-04-2006, 01:29 AM

I was at a Circuit City store recently and they were running a true 1920 x 1080 Sony HD demo movie file on the Sony KDSR50XBR1 50" HDTV which runs native at 1920 x 1080 and is considered the top hd tv on the market right now.

Everybody was gathered around this set and in total awe of the image quality. It literally looked so chrystal clear, sharp, and realistic like you could jump into the picture.

The downside was it made all the other plasma and LCD sets in the store look crappy in comparison.

But since there's no DVD content at that high a format being sold in stores yet, its probably overkill for now.

diesel · 04-04-2006, 02:57 AM

Encoding is not so bad for HDV when you learn it well. Our HDV guy is encoding now 15 "movies" per day easily and the quality is non comparable with DV, resulting lower size then DV and amazing clear quality.
Our customers vote for HDV 100% in all polls and we shoot only HDV since last September. Check the sig of Soul Rebel there is a link to Ivana's movie

Gaybucks · 04-04-2006, 03:02 AM

We will switch to shooting HD later this year.

We probably won't release DVDs in HD format until the replication plants have a way to do a dual-sided (SDVD and HDVD) disc or we feel like enough consumers own HDVD players.

The one comment that a lot of people missed was by Tony404 who said that of all the so-called HD formats out there, only Panasonic's HVX-200 is actually HD. All the others are HDV, which is a much lower resolution standard that can record on MiniDV tape.

True HD has much too large a data stream to be able to compress and record on miniDV tape and must be recorded to another media (on the Panasonic, it records to memory cards or streams to a portable hard drive) and is considerably larger than 13 gigs/hr, it's more like 1 to 2 gigs a minute, depending on what resolution you're shooting.

As several people have pointed out, it's also pretty unforgiving, so it may require some changes in how we present our models... every little imperfection shows.

Theo · 04-04-2006, 03:02 AM

check this sample

http://www.ivanafukalot.com/randomclip.wmv

and lets see a DV that can match quality

HDADULT · 04-04-2006, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tony404

Yes you can upconvert http://www.redgiantsoftware.com/instanthd.html
What do you think they are going to do with all those older tv shows throw them out ? lol
Most are talking about hdv which is a sucky format. More important than the format is shooting hot ,well lit footage. Most gonzo guys will have a hard time with HD, its not as forgiving as sd.

I know you can upconvert SD to HD but what I meant was that you cant add resolution and you would be better off with the highest quality acquisition.

HDADULT · 04-04-2006, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KRL

I was at a Circuit City store recently and they were running a true 1920 x 1080 Sony HD demo movie file on the Sony KDSR50XBR1 50" HDTV which runs native at 1920 x 1080 and is considered the top hd tv on the market right now.

Everybody was gathered around this set and in total awe of the image quality. It literally looked so chrystal clear, sharp, and realistic like you could jump into the picture.

The downside was it made all the other plasma and LCD sets in the store look crappy in comparison.

But since there's no DVD content at that high a format being sold in stores yet, its probably overkill for now.

Circuit City and Besty buy would sell more HDTV's if they had a real HD feed running. Maybe the new players coming out will help. Everytime I have been there, they are running a DVD with HD footage with network promos and its just not the same. To the average consumer it looks better however its doesnt have the wow factor. They would be better off running an over the air local HD feed.

12-07-2005, 01:27 PM	#1
Nydahl Confirmed User Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: closer then it appears Posts: 6,655	HD or DV - seriouse posts only So what do you think ? Just people knowing what they are talking about pls don't forget the facts HD is still very complicated to work with The final pic results are not as much different 16:9 is not always welcome __________________ www.garciniatrio.com www.acaitrio.com www.greencoffeetrio.com ICQ 153918034 email [email protected]

12-07-2005, 01:32 PM	#2
luedi Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: All over Posts: 76	well lets put it that way i have just rendered 190+ clips DV which took me three times as long as when i render 16 hd clips for one our exclusive customers - so time is money right?! on the other hand it will give greant quality which will definetely be asked for in the (near) future - so my guess is it will stay tough to work with hd for a while but once peripherials and software becomes adapt to it - it will be the shit it'll take a while - worthwhile...i think so...and than again for internet presentation what do you need hd for it really only makes sense for dvd prod. __________________ AmazingContent.com - exclusive & non-exclusive content production ICQ 336-328-109

12-07-2005, 02:41 PM	#11
leg4 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 4,429	I work with HD (hdv) and its no big problem... Raw HDV files are 13gigs per hour just like DV... so storage is not a problem. You must have a fast system to work with raw HDV though... I work with a dual Xeon 3.4mhz with 2gigs ram. Compression is fantastic... using wmvHD compression... It looks great and the file sizes are reasonable... If you have any questions, or would just like to talk about video and editing... EMAIL ME BELOW __________________ >>> Contact me here email me here

12-07-2005, 02:51 PM	#13
MaxCandy Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Montreal, London, Prague, Budapest, LA and Vegas Posts: 3,750	You asking about true HD or HDV? HDV cam is about a 5000USD camera True HD cams run 75,000USD OVERALL HD FORMATS: "HD" is a general term and it covers all the Hi Def formats including HDV really. But most people, at least most working professionals in film or broadcast, when they are referring to HD are talking about material acquired on HD Vision, HDcam, DVCProHD, Viper, or HDcam SR (or acquired on film and converted to one of those formats) using a picture size of 1920x1080 or 1280x720 and color sampling of at least 4:2:2 (HDcam is 3:1:1, but that's the exception). COMPETING HDV FORMATS: HDV refers to a tape format that was really designed to be the replacement for DV, but for once the industry replaced a format with another format that uses the same tapes...hurray! On a DV videocassette, you can get two types of HDV footage: 1440x1080 frame size (as opposed to HD formats with 1920x1080), which has the same data rate as DV (25 megabits per second) but uses MPEG compression to create 15 frame (NTSC successor); or another popular HDV format uses 12 frame (PAL successor) groups of pictures or "GOPs." The basic compromise here is image quality as the image compression is very aggressive, a necessity to fit that much picture on a DV cassette. __________________ Need a High-End Custom Shoot? Award Winning Producer / Director / Industry Consultant. Five of my Feature Films have been given top AVN / XBIZ / VENUS awards; How I Became A Sexual Slave 2016, L’Innocente 2014, Inglorious Bitches 2013, Ritual 2011 & Sexual Adventures of Little Red 2009 SINCE 1996 - IMDB Imdb.com - SAMPLES/AWARDS MaxCandy.com Email MaxCandy at MaxCandy.com

12-07-2005, 03:28 PM	#14
luedi Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: All over Posts: 76	i believe the point is very simple - progress comes with development there used to be this, than came that and what we got now is another "system" again - its like that with everything. So whats the point here? If you want to be on top you are going to be up to date, if you cant afford it yet or if you arent convinced that it will benefit your business you will wait until its right for you. HD is out there for a while now and its a format that is pushing aside dv in the long run one way or the other...for what its worth, i guess and that is better quality for all ;) __________________ AmazingContent.com - exclusive & non-exclusive content production ICQ 336-328-109

12-07-2005, 01:35 PM	#3
HDADULT Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 1,152	If you are shooting for the future and plan too utilize the content for many years, then why wouldnt you shoot in HD? You can allways down convert but you cannot up convert.

12-07-2005, 01:52 PM	#6
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	we shoot everything in HD now, it's better quality and that's enough factor. Processing takes years, but we are still young

12-07-2005, 02:02 PM	#8
Dirty Dane Sick Fuck Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: www Posts: 9,491	So what is "HD" anyway today? My DVD player has HDMI output with 1080i. My Flat HDTV has 1920 x 1080. .....but best digitalized DVD has what? like 576p. It looks good, but still not what you call real HD. No fense, but with a DVI connection to this TV, I can see that no one is producing real HD. Talked to some nerd about this, and he said its not up to hollywood or the TV producers, but Sony (playstation) before its realized

12-07-2005, 02:02 PM	#9
SquireMD ICQ # 229-616-436 Join Date: May 2005 Location: Land of Marion Barry Posts: 794	what would you say is the minimum system required to work with HDV? (ie: dualcore g5, 2 gig ram blah blah blah)

12-07-2005, 02:04 PM	#10
Theo HAL 9000 Industry Role: Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 34,515	hehe anyone remember when fantasyman posted a raw HDV file (7-8min) of a porn shoot some 2-3 years ago? I don't recall the exact filesize, but it was huge and you couldn't play it on most computers.

12-07-2005, 03:36 PM	#16
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	HDV is not HD its a format that big corporations are pushing down our throats as the future and its not. TV is still shooting in Betacam and SD. I have yet to see a hdv image that blew me away. Wait until til a few generations of cameras and technology come out. Remember Hi 8 ? That was going to be the future too. Last edited by tony299; 12-07-2005 at 03:38 PM..

12-07-2005, 03:51 PM	#19
luedi Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: All over Posts: 76	excactly!!! __________________ AmazingContent.com - exclusive & non-exclusive content production ICQ 336-328-109

12-08-2005, 04:59 AM	#21
phonesex Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Phone Sex Pays! Believe it! Posts: 3,437	HD all the way!! __________________ Phone Sex Pays Make $1.50 a minute! CLICK HERE TO SIGN UP NOW

04-04-2006, 12:07 AM	#23
rock-reed Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 1,892	HDV is looking nicer and nicer Mates... Are surfers requesting it? __________________ --- Ethnic niche? Black-Asian-Latina ? Contact me and lets talk traffic. rockreed@ that thing they call the google mail When you E-mail Me, PLZZZZ make the Subject Title: >>>>>> GFY! So I do not lose you in Spam.

04-04-2006, 12:46 AM	#26
skinnay Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NEW YORK CITY Posts: 2,274	go with HIV __________________ Make Real Green with ORGANIC SEO \| Blog post exchange \| Non-index page trades \| A-B C-D Trades [icq: 194-215-962] [mail: [email protected]]

04-04-2006, 01:08 AM	#27
Ivana Fukalot Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,482	I am not an expert, but can say that we started to use HD (at my site) and the result- quality is Better!!! __________________ You can promote my site at www.dieselaction.com DieselAction V3.0 features new exclusive paysites, NATS stats, DieselTools, epass/checks/wires with no fees and much more!

04-04-2006, 01:29 AM	#28
KRL Entrepreneur Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: USA Posts: 31,429	I was at a Circuit City store recently and they were running a true 1920 x 1080 Sony HD demo movie file on the Sony KDSR50XBR1 50" HDTV which runs native at 1920 x 1080 and is considered the top hd tv on the market right now. Everybody was gathered around this set and in total awe of the image quality. It literally looked so chrystal clear, sharp, and realistic like you could jump into the picture. The downside was it made all the other plasma and LCD sets in the store look crappy in comparison. But since there's no DVD content at that high a format being sold in stores yet, its probably overkill for now. __________________ If you would like to develop your domains, you can lease inexpensive foreign labor from the leaders in the field at iWebmasters.com TO LOWER YOUR COSTS AND INCREASE YOUR PRODUCTION! * * * * * * * * * * * * Domains Adult News KRL's Newsletter Biz Tips Just Listed Domains

04-04-2006, 02:57 AM	#29
diesel Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 1,097	Encoding is not so bad for HDV when you learn it well. Our HDV guy is encoding now 15 "movies" per day easily and the quality is non comparable with DV, resulting lower size then DV and amazing clear quality. Our customers vote for HDV 100% in all polls and we shoot only HDV since last September. Check the sig of Soul Rebel there is a link to Ivana's movie Last edited by diesel; 04-04-2006 at 02:59 AM..

04-04-2006, 03:02 AM	#30
Gaybucks Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 451	We will switch to shooting HD later this year. We probably won't release DVDs in HD format until the replication plants have a way to do a dual-sided (SDVD and HDVD) disc or we feel like enough consumers own HDVD players. The one comment that a lot of people missed was by Tony404 who said that of all the so-called HD formats out there, only Panasonic's HVX-200 is actually HD. All the others are HDV, which is a much lower resolution standard that can record on MiniDV tape. True HD has much too large a data stream to be able to compress and record on miniDV tape and must be recorded to another media (on the Panasonic, it records to memory cards or streams to a portable hard drive) and is considerably larger than 13 gigs/hr, it's more like 1 to 2 gigs a minute, depending on what resolution you're shooting. As several people have pointed out, it's also pretty unforgiving, so it may require some changes in how we present our models... every little imperfection shows. __________________ Gaybucks.com 100% exclusive American guys - hosted movie galleries - NATS - Boyfunk.com - Boysfeetclub.com - AJsCloset.com- SkylerDeVoss.com ICQ 272-995-402