At 4, he shouldn't be exposed to violence regardless. At 4, he is supposed to be sheltered - by you. That's your job as a parent, to shelter and protect a kid while it's needed, so he can learn to deal with reality at his own pace.

Sure, you can't completely control the things a kid sees (although you should be able to do that for the most part, especially at 4 years old), but you shouldn't throw everything at the kid all at once yourself.

Personally, I think the main reason that you are going against what EVERYONE here says and what EVERY educational expert says is mainly that you like the idea of you son becoming some tough guy one day.

You disguise it as preparing him for the "rules of life", but seriously, if you do a good job at raising him he will never be in any position that requires him to know this stuff. He will instead go to school, maybe get into a few fights, go to high school, maybe get into a few more fights and maybe experiment a little with drinking, go to college, get drunk and get laid, become a doctor or a lawyer and never have to use these "skills" in his entire life.

You are not preparing him for "the rules of life", you are preparing him for "the rules of thug life". Is that really what you want?

Typically, it's not the "sheltered" kids who grow up to be violent criminals. It's the kids who grow up surrounded by things that teach them about crime, violence, drugs, etc.

Besides, maybe we don't sing and dance with balloons and dinosaurs, but we sure as hell don't drive around all day shooting at people either. I know your program is called "mobbucks", but seriously, for normal people that is stuff that mostly happens in movies.

respectfully disagree, here's why.

First off, it's not his nature to be violent. He wouldn't hurt a fly. if it was I would surly throttle down the input.

Secondly, I allow him to explore life on his terms provided I feel he can handle it. Nothing is thrown at him, it is trickled to him as he takes it, or in some cases begs for it.

Thirdly, I go against what all these so called educational experts say because they (I am generalizing) are fucking uptight assholes and religious fanatics who think by controlling what you are exposed to, they can control your thought, so they can control your actions and make the world easier for their "class" to take for themselves. fuck them and their trite bullshit. If we listened to them all this time, we'd be a bunch of controlled sheep.

being in this business is a statment about all of our thought process...we are not going to follow what the moral majority say's or thinks, fuck them! we are free, and will fight to the death to keep our thoughts that way.

Not so, check your stats. Typically it is two types of kids that become violent criminals, those with no supervision as They are exposed to things with no controls or teachings. And kids with very strict supervision since they rebel against senseless authority.

All the bullshit aside, I'm truly impressed. You got a genius on your hands Ray. Be proud of that.

And, coming from the MOBBUCKS I would expect nothing less than a genius kid that could finish a game called True Crime. LOL

All is as it should be. ;)

I think that exposing the 4 year old to violence is a bit premature. There will definitely come a time for him to be less sheltered but at 4, he's not old enough. Learning to pop caps in peoples' asses at 4 really isn't necessary and it's unlikely that a 4 year old can understand the ramifications of it.

When you're 4 years old you're still learning about how to tie your shoes, read, write, spell, socialize, the difference between right and wrong, and the wonders of the natural world.

On a side note speaking of games, would you all want one of those magic style card games based on mobsters? Got one gathering dust that is unopened.

Thanks for the kind words. The genius thing remains to be seen in time, but he's a good kid, and ong as he grows up happy, that's all I care about...That's all I push him to be, is happy with himself, nothing more.

Thanks man.

ray vega - brilliant mad view thread architect

You are joking :-) right? or....

50 rapping barneys

Hell yea! By the way, loved the design work you did for us. Great stuff, and fast too. I was in a time jam and you came through before I even expected you to. kudos.
thanks

His "nature" is what is being formed right now.

The point of being a really young kid is that you don't know yet what's good for you. That's why kids sometimes need to be told what they are allowed to do, and what they aren't.

As for your ideas on educational experts... those are just wrong. And I'm not talking about the religious fundamentalists, but about the child psychologists who are experts on issues like these. The fact of the matter is that results of studies so far have produced mixed results, with violent video games possible causing more feelings of aggression and such.

Even if there is no conclusive evidence of these effects of violent video games, do you really want to use your son as a living experiment, just because it seems to you that it probably won't do much harm?

Any time.

I will package it on up for you. Ill get the address and stuff latter, like on tuesday when we talk.

Again, i must respectfully disagree.
nuber one, i don't believe that his "nature" is forming now. i believe who you are is mostly genetic and there is as much evidence proving that as the latter so it's a matter of beliefs.

Number two, Exactly! studies have produced mixed results...it's all guesswork people, and as a parent i have not just a right, but an obligation to keep these whackos away from the kid and let him be "him" if i think that's what is right.

good argument though.

i highly doubt genetic can go above his real-life experiences.

That's not what i'm saying. What i'm saying is that how you process your real life experiences and use them to dictate your actions is genetic. So with that arguement, for this child I feel it is ok to let him explore this way based on his disposition and my experiences with how he processes information.

For a child that has a genetic disposition to take violence as exciting and fun rather than serious, the same behavior would be irresposible and even dangerous.

yeah that's possible, a parent close to his kid should be able to see that. I'm all for the video games, but to be honest as a parent (which im not right now) wouldn't take a risk to expose him to violence at the age of 4.

I don't want to argue just for the sake of arguing here, so I'll keep it at this last post. After all, in the end it's your kid and it's up to you how you raise him.

Now, as for your points.

The nature/nurture debate (genes or environment/upbringing) is not exactly just a matter of beliefs. Sure, there is disagreement, but most serious scientists belief genes account for 25%-75%, and upbringing for the other 25%-75%. Nobody (worth listening to, anyway) is saying it's just upbringing, but nobody's saying it's just genes either. That a significant part of his nature is personality is being developed right now is a matter of fact, not belief. The only question is how big that part is.

That studies produced mixed results seems, to me, a good indication to take any chances. Only part of the studies that have been done have indicated that violent games during childhood can do damage, but absolutely no studies have indicated that a lack of violent games during childhood will do damage.

And that's the main point I would like to make: Why even take the risk?

Good deed or not, a gun is a gun and it kills. Your son will now have lust for murder.

I don't know about a lust for murder - perhaps a fascination... I don''t think it's healthy to let a 4 year old play shoot em ups and touch REAL guns!

good point "but absolutely no studies have indicated that a lack of violent games during childhood will do damage" that's because there are no studies. i'm taking no more chance than people who shield their kids. i'd like them to do studies like this...of course they will not because it will make it more difficult to have us cultivate our kids to be sheep...

you never played cops and robbers or cowboys and indians as a kid or never held grampa's shotgun? that's just sad.

Ok, apparently I lied about the other post being my last one, but I just couldn't resist making this post:

There ARE studies. Studies on the effects of violent computer games would also show positive effects, if there were any. So far, however, studies have only shown either no effects or negative effects (with negative effects mostly concentrated around first person shooters).

You are taking way more chances than people who "shield" their kids, if you look at the studies. And apart from that, what damage could not having kids play violent computer games do? Not having them fully prepared for violent gunfights in the streets?

Success in modern society is just not based around such things, at least not the kind of success that you probably want your kids to have. And even if it were, it is seriously doubtful if violent video games will provide a good education on things like these.

Once again, you have the right to raise your kids any way you want. But when the entire world disagrees with you, it may make sense to take a closer look to see whether you may be wrong after all :2 cents:

My 5 year old is great at first person shooter games like Wolfenstein and Call Of Duty. He knows exactly which guns to use and when. He does try to emulate the soldiers sometimes when he's playing around the house, and that's when we teach him about real life and games.

Apparently punkworld is in the minority in this thread, lol. it actually suprises me.

No hes not.

Well, ok, maybe not minority...but I expected to get 100% bashed...couple folks in here actually have faith in my ability to make a decision as a parent...lol

Yes. And so do I. And the millions of others that enjoy shooter games.

I'll be back in a little bit. I need to go round up my platoon, we have some Mexicans to pick off.

Or, they're making the same mistakes you are. :-)

You can look at it either way, haha.

Here's a list of things I grew up on that I can remember from age 4 (1979) and on:

Cops n Robbers
Porn (age 6)
Sat. Night live
HBO

Conan The Barbarian
The Godfather
Scarface
Terminator
Commando
Red Dawn
sex rap (age 12 - 2 Live Crew)

and much much more. Basically everything that was R to X rated about life I saw and lived around.

I lived in one of the worst parts of town and was able to get my hands on guns for personal use at age 12. My friends were using them regularly. Even after all that violent visual programming I did my best to stay away from the violence and tried my best not to hurt other people. Growing up in rough areas usually means that's not always possible, but I did my best.

If what everyone is saying is true, I should have been putting bodies in bags during puberty. But thanks to the morals and drive my parents instilled in me I ended up starting a career instead that still pays me well today.

No one knows how this kids going to turn out. I'll tell you this much, it's much better to have a super intelligent 4 year old that can understand your explanations about guns, death, sex and other mature subjects than to have a 13 year old idiot who can't understand shit (except what his peers tell him).

At least Ray can keep him close and tell him exactly what's going on about life. He'll probably turn out better than the shielded kids that discover things from their equally moronic friends.

What the fuck?

Hey Ray,
If you taught your 4 year old, and he understands, what "One in the chamber," means. Then your a great parent. There are too many shootings, including self inflicted, in this country from dumbasses, who do not understand that unloaded guns are more dangerous than loaded ones, sometimes.

If more parents. instructors et al, taught that if the chamber is closed, consider it loaded, the number of so called accidental shootings could be cut way down.

When I was a mechanic, I always checked the glovebox before a test drive. The number of folks who drive around with a pistol in there did not surprise me, what did was the number who had a round in the chamber. Has nobody ever heard of a bump in the road?

why is it everytime i see a kid on tv that has shot up their schoolmates or blown their girlfriend's parents' heads off always love their video games and use a gun from THEIR parent's house for the murders?

I have some views on this ... and i think 4 is too young but i also know ray sits with him and does teach him gun safety ... but i still don't let me 8 yr old play those games .... any way i just got home from LA and the Playboy party rocked .. I feel bad for the suckers that missed it ... it was a really nice place ...i'll post pics tomorrow ..i'm off to unpack ... :thumbsup

Sad? Perhaps - depends on your mentality. I never touched a gun until I was 16 - and probably have touched 3 different guns in my life and shot 2 of them.

wtf is wrong with you americans? I never touched a gun in my life and no one I know did. There's no reason to teach kids about that stuff. Media brainwashing. Fears control your lifes.

With no concept or understanding of death, I am sorry but shit happens and will happen.

Let alone understanding cause and consquence it spells disaster.

I'm considered more about you than your kid.

PS: It does not take alot of braines to blow people away.
It takes braines to get away with it maybe but if you trying to stimulate his "Genious" side. Give em puzzles, logic excercises, you know brain games.

1st person shooters wont do it, it is just observation and reaction response.

So maybe re-evaluate what intelligence or genious is and maybe that will help:)