Will adult design ever reach $200 a month?

[graphical x]

Given the rate outsourcing is changing this industry, will adult design ever reach $200 a month? What factors are keeping that from happening? Will it ever happen?

[Jer]

$200 a month for an adult designer?

It will happen when the dollar goes up 500%.

[TheMob]

I would never hire someone for under 500/month. It's just degrading. Especially knowing that half of it goes to some fat overlord.

No offense to fat overlords ;)

[The Truth Hurts]

at $200 a month... you'd be better off working as a bathroom attendant.....









at McDonalds.

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by Jer

$200 a month for an adult designer?

It will happen when the dollar goes up 500%.

Besides the exchange rate of the dollar.... any other reasons why we haven't seen it dip to this level? Maybe if India started allowing adult design?

[High Plains Drifter]

Start a union.

[d00t]

It won't drop that low.

Design is design.... you get what you pay for.

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

at $200 a month... you'd be better off working as a bathroom attendant.....

at McDonalds.

I guess that's aimed at US/EU workers. But we're talking globalization here--so my question remains. What barriers stand in the way of lower design prices the world over?

[The Truth Hurts]

Outsourcing should be a crime punishable by death.

Fucking penny pinching cocksuckers.

[The Truth Hurts]

Originally Posted by graphical x

I guess that's aimed at US/EU workers. But we're talking globalization here--so my question remains. What barriers stand in the way of lower design prices the world over?

Fuck globalization.

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by d00t

It won't drop that low.

Design is design.... you get what you pay for.

I guess you haven't seen the stuff coming out of some foreign freelancers on this board lately.... stuff that a US guy would charge $1000 bucks for...being done for $125 or less. What's scary is if this rate could be turned to a monthly package rate or something....

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by graphical x

Besides the exchange rate of the dollar.... any other reasons why we haven't seen it dip to this level? Maybe if India started allowing adult design?

I doubt it will ever drpo that low

[Mutt]

show me samples of this great work done for $125. every time somebody has show me the work of their outsourced designers it has sucked.

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

Outsourcing should be a crime punishable by death.

Fucking penny pinching cocksuckers.

So does everything you buy have "Made in the USA" underneath?

Even if that's the case (not likely), some are probably made in Saipan, a US territory where people make lower than the US minimum wage.

My question originally was: What are the factors preventing global digital product prices from sinking to the lowest sustainable level?

[Doctor Dre]

Thing is ... outsourced designers compagnies are offering right now aren't really good designers...

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dre

Thing is ... outsourced designers compagnies are offering right now aren't really good designers...

Okay, so its a quality issue.

[Hardlinks]

Add a few bucks to that 200 and thats what the designers walk with from the outsourcing services, between 200-400 a month to the employee, the rest is administration (yes fat overlords).

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by Hardlinks

Add a few bucks to that 200 and thats what the designers walk with from the outsourcing services, between 200-400 a month to the employee, the rest is administration (yes fat overlords).

But isn't that how most businesses are run? Buy low, sell high? In this case, it is in the form of services.

[The Truth Hurts]

I think anyone that was in a position that was eliminated due to outsourcing, should have the right to challenge their foreign replacement to a duel.

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by The Truth Hurts

I think anyone that was in a position that was eliminated due to outsourcing, should have the right to challenge their foreign replacement to a duel.

That would be a lot of angry camera and auto workers

[graphical x]

Here's my take on how things work out economically:

US/First world countries pioneer a technology. When it first comes out, price is very high. Manufacturers have a fat margin so manufacturing is done in the US. Market expands and more and more consumers demand lower pricing. So manufacturing is shipped out to overseas suppliers. Layoffs in the US on lower end stuff and focus is on higher end stuff.

Then next tech wave or innovation/product line hits, repeat the cycle above.

Maybe the problem is not that the 'jobs are being shipped out' its because capital is so readily available in the US that there's an overwhelming urge for profit maximization?

Here's a hint: those people displaced find other jobs and are not on welfare lines.

So, even if design hits $200 a month will it mean the end of the US freelancer? or economic doom?

[graphical x]

any other thoughts on this?

[graphical x]

Lots of views. Need more discussion

[adultchica]

I can't believe that designers don't make a lot more than that! Time to get a new job if they don't. I think the really good ones make a lot more than just 200$ per month.

[VAIRES]

Why would anyone SETTLE for $200 when they know they can get paid $500-$1000? If they don't start settling, then you will just be FORCED to pay the higher fee's.

You wouldn't have any other options, so why the hell would they settle for only $200 and live like shit, yet have to work their asses off to first LEARN, and keep a CREATIVE MIND, and yet get shit for payment?

[graphical x]

Isn't that the argument of people in developed countries? But people settle for out of country workers. First with Japan. Then Korea. Then China. Then, probably a bit later, Africa.

Also, why should people be FORCED to pay higher fees as you put it.

Take Southeast Asia for example: right now the action is on the Philippines. If there's an antiporn crackdown and jailing of some operators, the focus will probably shift to another country. After that, its probably Cambodia where you'll get $200 or so...

So what's preventing the price from sliding? People haven't maxed out the learning curve yet or is there a BARRIER (not artificial like price fixing) to pricing?

As for people living like shit... most of the world lives on $1 or $2 per day. It all depends on local pricing. It may seem low to you but pricing is always local.

Thanks to the Internet, that can be tapped now.

Originally Posted by VAIRES

Why would anyone SETTLE for $200 when they know they can get paid $500-$1000? If they don't start settling, then you will just be FORCED to pay the higher fee's.

You wouldn't have any other options, so why the hell would they settle for only $200 and live like shit, yet have to work their asses off to first LEARN, and keep a CREATIVE MIND, and yet get shit for payment?

[Webby]

Originally Posted by graphical x

Given the rate outsourcing is changing this industry, will adult design ever reach $200 a month? What factors are keeping that from happening? Will it ever happen?

Only way is up. The degree of growth in "outsourcing countries" is far more than the "west". As they expand, standard of living increases along with currency values.

Western countries are already stagnant in the economic sense by comparision.

[Doctor Dre]

Originally Posted by graphical x

Okay, so its a quality issue.

definitly a problem there... It's not evne what I'd call competition right now

[BlueWire]

These prices will only go up. The bottom was 3 years ago and the prices have gone up. The dollar COULD go up and drive down prices, but the dollar is in no position to do so...


What will happen is US Designers will start earning less, overseas will start learning more and over the course of time it starts to balance out more and more.


And to whoever said outsourcing should be a punishable crime...I mean, we're all entitled to our opinions...But we have a software production office overseas and our programmers earn the equivilent of 120K/yr . They live in nice condos downtown for the most part or are no longer barely getting by with their families.

Would they be better off with their old jobs , earning about 1/5th as much ...putting themselves in a position where one thing can go wrong (medical, natural disaster) and they might DIE?

I TOTALLY understand people who are pissed about outsourcing because it takes jobs overseas (because american workers demands have gotten too high)....

But most the people who are against it watched a NOVA special on sweatshops in like 1991 that showed people in Taiwan making shoes for 2 cents an hour. Educate yourself, most these people live better within their communities than 95% of Americans.

This is the question I always ask people who think its wrong....


DO YOU THINK ITS WRONG TO PAY A UPS DELIVERY GUY IN CALIFORNIA MORE IN CALIFORNIA THAN ONE IN SOUTH DAKOTA BECAUSE HIS RENT IS 3 TIMES AS MUCH?

I think thats just economics and nothing more

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by Webby

Only way is up. The degree of growth in "outsourcing countries" is far more than the "west". As they expand, standard of living increases along with currency values.

Western countries are already stagnant in the economic sense by comparision.

That's true of China and India but not true of economies at the lower end of the economic specturm in Asia.... Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines, etc.

You should talk to the guy named "The Truth Hurts" he is convinced globalization is bad... I guess he'd think differently if he worked in a US telecom equipment manufacturing plant shipping out the good stuff to China/India.

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by graphical x

That's true of China and India but not true of economies at the lower end of the economic specturm in Asia.... Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines, etc.

You should talk to the guy named "The Truth Hurts" he is convinced globalization is bad... I guess he'd think differently if he worked in a US telecom equipment manufacturing plant shipping out the good stuff to China/India.

The 3 fastest growing real estate markets in the world are:

1) Costa Rica
2) Vietnam
3) Philippines

That was as of 2 months ago

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dre

definitly a problem there... It's not evne what I'd call competition right now

I think we're on to something here.

There's a pyramid in all industries. Top of the food chain are high value high $$$ services in design -- paysite/concepts etc

Bottom of the food chain are 'grinder' type work--tgp designs, galleries, etc

It looks like the bottom is being outsourced out but the quality of the top of the pyramid is still spotty for outsource outfits...

If that's the argument, maybe its just a matter of time?

[graphical x]

So you're basing overall economic growth based on just the real estate sector?

Originally Posted by BlueWire

The 3 fastest growing real estate markets in the world are:

1) Costa Rica
2) Vietnam
3) Philippines

That was as of 2 months ago

[lchaim]

Originally Posted by BlueWire

The 3 fastest growing real estate markets in the world are:

1) Costa Rica
2) Vietnam
3) Philippines

That was as of 2 months ago

Where are you digging that info from, just curious.

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by lchaim

Where are you digging that info from, just curious.

Business Weekly

Check the August, September issues....One of those 2. There is an article talking in depth about outsourcing....The huge problems being had in India right now, Vietnam as the best up and coming country. Philippines doesnt really get much mention other than for the real estate

[graphical x]

Short of a ton of americans moving to southeast asia starting their own design shops using local labor, I only see the price going down. If you want to firm up prices, you have to soak up the supply (remember the law of supply and demand). Since that's not gonna happen anytime soon, you'll just see more of the pattern of guys who used to work for outsource companies take a few clients with them when they leave, those clients no longer have any work, so they hit the boards doing stuff for cheap. American training + third world wages = $200 or lower monthly rates.

Probably one of the biggest barriers against price lowering is probably the price of infrastructure. I'm not sure if its taxes... I don't know if the tax police is as hardcore in SE asia as in the US or Canada/EU

Originally Posted by BlueWire

These prices will only go up. The bottom was 3 years ago and the prices have gone up. The dollar COULD go up and drive down prices, but the dollar is in no position to do so...


What will happen is US Designers will start earning less, overseas will start learning more and over the course of time it starts to balance out more and more.


And to whoever said outsourcing should be a punishable crime...I mean, we're all entitled to our opinions...But we have a software production office overseas and our programmers earn the equivilent of 120K/yr . They live in nice condos downtown for the most part or are no longer barely getting by with their families.

Would they be better off with their old jobs , earning about 1/5th as much ...putting themselves in a position where one thing can go wrong (medical, natural disaster) and they might DIE?

I TOTALLY understand people who are pissed about outsourcing because it takes jobs overseas (because american workers demands have gotten too high)....

But most the people who are against it watched a NOVA special on sweatshops in like 1991 that showed people in Taiwan making shoes for 2 cents an hour. Educate yourself, most these people live better within their communities than 95% of Americans.

This is the question I always ask people who think its wrong....


DO YOU THINK ITS WRONG TO PAY A UPS DELIVERY GUY IN CALIFORNIA MORE IN CALIFORNIA THAN ONE IN SOUTH DAKOTA BECAUSE HIS RENT IS 3 TIMES AS MUCH?

I think thats just economics and nothing more

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by graphical x

So you're basing overall economic growth based on just the real estate sector?

No, its just one factor. Real estate DOES have a lot to do with the cost of living going up however. When cost of living goes up it is generally because more money is getting pumped into the economy...Not always but it is a "tell".


The statement was made about these South East asian countries being stagnat basically, not growing...however you want to reword it...But that is far from the case. I'd much rather have investments over there that are going vertical right now than inflated American stuff

[Webby]

Originally Posted by graphical x

That's true of China and India but not true of economies at the lower end of the economic specturm in Asia.... Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines, etc.

You should talk to the guy named "The Truth Hurts" he is convinced globalization is bad... I guess he'd think differently if he worked in a US telecom equipment manufacturing plant shipping out the good stuff to China/India.

You seen the size of the "techno parks" in some of the countries you mentioned?
They have their own railways to transport ya from one block to the next. Some were built at enormous cost from a dream, and sure, they remained almost empty for a few years, - but that's totally changed now. Even within the Asian area the market is expanding substantially.

Sure "The Truth Hurts" when it's hurting him. Sounds like another Bush idea gone bad!

[graphical x]

Originally Posted by lchaim

Where are you digging that info from, just curious.

Yep. Would be nice to have a link

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by graphical x

Short of a ton of americans moving to southeast asia starting their own design shops using local labor, I only see the price going down. If you want to firm up prices, you have to soak up the supply (remember the law of supply and demand). Since that's not gonna happen anytime soon, you'll just see more of the pattern of guys who used to work for outsource companies take a few clients with them when they leave, those clients no longer have any work, so they hit the boards doing stuff for cheap. American training + third world wages = $200 or lower monthly rates.

Probably one of the biggest barriers against price lowering is probably the price of infrastructure. I'm not sure if its taxes... I don't know if the tax police is as hardcore in SE asia as in the US or Canada/EU

Actually, what is happening is the supply is having a VERY hard time keeping up with the demand...Prices are going up, the proof is in the numbers.

Look at how much prices have gone up in India. The same will occur in other countries.


As far as taxes, this is another issue that will drive things up.


Currently the programming industry in India is struggling in comparison to the other countries because 50% ALL profits created from the country (software production for example) goes to the Indian government.

Great for call centers though because there is no product created from call centers to pay from.

The question is, will other countries start implementing anything like this.

[graphical x]

Hmmmm, isn't the reason the real estate sector in CR, RVN, and PI are going up is because of US-born retirees buying retirement properties(CR ), expats investing (RVN), or overseas temp or contract workers sending money home (PI)?

The philippines' economy is particularly stagnant compared to its 'tiger' neighbors. It hasn't fully recovered from the 1997 "asian economic flu" Why do you think it has one of the highest applications of family unification emigrants to the United States and Canada?

I think the high cost of infrastructure is the reason prices haven't settled lower...

Originally Posted by BlueWire

No, its just one factor. Real estate DOES have a lot to do with the cost of living going up however. When cost of living goes up it is generally because more money is getting pumped into the economy...Not always but it is a "tell".


The statement was made about these South East asian countries being stagnat basically, not growing...however you want to reword it...But that is far from the case. I'd much rather have investments over there that are going vertical right now than inflated American stuff

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by graphical x

Hmmmm, isn't the reason the real estate sector in CR, RVN, and PI are going up is because of US-born retirees buying retirement properties(CR ), expats investing (RVN), or overseas temp or contract workers sending money home (PI)?

The philippines' economy is particularly stagnant compared to its 'tiger' neighbors. It hasn't fully recovered from the 1997 "asian economic flu" Why do you think it has one of the highest applications of family unification emigrants to the United States and Canada?

I think the high cost of infrastructure is the reason prices haven't settled lower...

We'll agree to disagree I guess. I'm right at the front lines of this thing and am always continuing to research to make good and smart decisions as to where the future of our software development side of the company is going to go...

We will always have a strong american presense for our development staff however. There is only so much you can do from thousands of miles away so that is why our software teams will always work in teams between local employees and our overseas offices.

[Webby]

Here's an out of date link from Biz Weekly (2003) ...

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...5/b3818001.htm

Only thing that's happened since then is the degree of outsourcing has risen.

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by Webby

Here's an out of date link from Biz Weekly (2003) ...

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...5/b3818001.htm

Only thing that's happened since then is the degree of outsourcing has risen.

I remember that article, its a good read. A good point made:


This is no sweatshop work. Just two years out of college, Gaurav Daga, 22, is India project manager for software that lets programs running on Unix-based computers interact smoothly with Windows applications. Daga's $11,000 salary is a princely sum in a nation with a per capita annual income of $500, where a two-bedroom flat goes for $125 a month.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BlueWire

I remember that article, its a good read. A good point made:


This is no sweatshop work. Just two years out of college, Gaurav Daga, 22, is India project manager for software that lets programs running on Unix-based computers interact smoothly with Windows applications. Daga's $11,000 salary is a princely sum in a nation with a per capita annual income of $500, where a two-bedroom flat goes for $125 a month.

The volume of qualified labor in these countries is substantial. They may vary in their education systems, but the net result is that they are educated and trained.

Simple example here in Costa Rica is (tho can't quote actual stats) that there is a very high percentage of the younger population finishing their education with a degree. They all have some degree or other!

A reasonable salary for say, a tech-qualified graduate is about $1000/month.

Another reverse example is a US lawyer who moved here a few years back. I asked him why he wants to move here and take a salary drop? He replied the quality of life is superior and he would not, in real terms, be taking any salary reduction - the cost of living was much less.

It's also very similar to the example you quoted of the Indian project manager. There is a substantial biz here in software development and their market is worldwide and they sure ain't sweatshops

[BlueWire]

Originally Posted by Webby

The volume of qualified labor in these countries is substantial. They may vary in their education systems, but the net result is that they are educated and trained.

Simple example here in Costa Rica is (tho can't quote actual stats) that there is a very high percentage of the younger population finishing their education with a degree. They all have some degree or other!

A reasonable salary for say, a tech-qualified graduate is about $1000/month.

Another reverse example is a US lawyer who moved here a few years back. I asked him why he wants to move here and take a salary drop? He replied the quality of life is superior and he would not, in real terms, be taking any salary reduction - the cost of living was much less.

It's also very similar to the example you quoted of the Indian project manager. There is a substantial biz here in software development and their market is worldwide and they sure ain't sweatshops

FINALLY...The smart people showed up

[Webby]

Originally Posted by BlueWire

FINALLY...The smart people showed up

Kinda funny in comparison with the "civilized" countries... One young guy who already had a degree was doing a doctorate. I asked him how much it's gonna cost him to get this. $180 for the year!

You can see why they end up with degrees!

[Odin88]

Originally Posted by Webby

Kinda funny in comparison with the "civilized" countries... One young guy who already had a degree was doing a doctorate. I asked him how much it's gonna cost him to get this. $180 for the year!

You can see why they end up with degrees!

Do they get good Government support as well? I know in Australia (although it costs to do a degree) they give you a nice support package that in the end ensure you don't have to work while doing your degree. And a degree only costs a few thousand per year here (and you don't need the money upfront) so the cost of doing a degree isn't even an issue to 99.9% of people considering it.

[Webby]

Originally Posted by Odin88

Do they get good Government support as well? I know in Australia (although it costs to do a degree) they give you a nice support package that in the end ensure you don't have to work while doing your degree. And a degree only costs a few thousand per year here (and you don't need the money upfront) so the cost of doing a degree isn't even an issue to 99.9% of people considering it.

Correct O!

They appear to have their prorities in order, health and education. There is no army or defense budget so revenue gets thrown into the basics.

The idea of education costing money is against the grain. The concept is, the more education and training provided the better - and eventually is an investment in the economy.

The standard govt health system costs.. eg.. for a family of four, $240/year and there are also the usual private clinics. The basic healthcare system covers docs, scripts, dental, maternity etc - it's pretty inclusive. The private sector is there as an option, but seems to cater to folks visiting from other countries and needing operations. Common surgeries are heart bi pass and plenty plastic surgery.

[thewebgarage]

I gotta tell you in my experience designers have ripped me off the most. Giving me junk making me wait. Charging me rates I pay I pay my doctor. So I dont feel bad for designers.