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-   -   Are Jews geneticallly smarter than all other ethncities? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=531994)

Libertine 10-25-2005 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
Interesting new genetic study says so...

http://www.printthis.clickability.co...artnerID=73272

For an environmental/cultural/social/historical alternative to 'genetic' theories (genetic theories scare me!) see: http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream...ve/sowell.html

Also, maybe intelligence is a function of historical evolution--many of the groups viewed as 'highly intelligent' were ghettoized and marginalized into occupations that forced them to have strong mental and business skills. Examples: Jews in Europe, Chinese in Southeast Asia, Lebanese in Africa, Asian Indians in Africa and Southeast Asia. These middlemen cultures routinely placed emphasis on education and academic aptitude since their livelihoods were non-agricultural and due to frequent pogroms/expulsions (Chinese were periodically massacred and brutalized in SE Asia as well as Asian Indians) they focused on high intellectual trades and professions (medicine and traders/bankers, etc).

I like the latter explanation...not any genetic or hard coded explanations.

What do you guys think?
Your "non-genetic" evolutionary outlines fairly well what the most likely explanation of a genetic difference would be. They focused on intellectual trades, those in those trades were the most successful within their societies, had more children, thus were more successful evolutionary, and by that the genetical trait of intelligence was passed on. Pogroms and such helped the process by weeding out those not able to survive under circumstances requiring high intelligence and resourcefulness.
All the while Catholic Europeans made their brightest into priests and monks, banning them from passing on their genes.

It is a fact that Ashkenazi jews score higher on IQ tests than other racial groups and, like it or not, the explanation for that is quite likely to be genetic.

adultchica 10-25-2005 09:51 AM
Asians and Jewish people are examples of some of the smartest people I know. I know that some of my asian friends outscored most people on all of their college exams and if they were beaten on grades, it was by a Jew :-)

graphical x 10-26-2005 08:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkworld
Your "non-genetic" evolutionary outlines fairly well what the most likely explanation of a genetic difference would be. They focused on intellectual trades, those in those trades were the most successful within their societies, had more children, thus were more successful evolutionary, and by that the genetical trait of intelligence was passed on. Pogroms and such helped the process by weeding out those not able to survive under circumstances requiring high intelligence and resourcefulness.
All the while Catholic Europeans made their brightest into priests and monks, banning them from passing on their genes.

It is a fact that Ashkenazi jews score higher on IQ tests than other racial groups and, like it or not, the explanation for that is quite likely to be genetic.
Your statement contains several problems. You state that by being smarter, they were able to replicate more and pass on their genes. This misses the over 20+ expulsions, periodic killings, and town purges of Ashkenazic Jews in and out of the Pale region. In this case, being smarter in one's profession did not lead to having population advantage... if it did, they would have numerically outstripped the host population of the lands they were living in.

You have left out the very potent factors of politics, economic envy, and historic religious hatred that sculpted the experience of Western Jewry.

As for IQ tests, look at my first post, there's a link there from Thomas Sowell referencing WWI era intelligence tests of Eastern European Jews.

I have to reiterate... genetic determinism is a very scary proposition regardless of whether it is "positive" or "negative"

Odin 10-26-2005 08:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by punkworld
Your "non-genetic" evolutionary outlines fairly well what the most likely explanation of a genetic difference would be. They focused on intellectual trades, those in those trades were the most successful within their societies, had more children, thus were more successful evolutionary, and by that the genetical trait of intelligence was passed on. Pogroms and such helped the process by weeding out those not able to survive under circumstances requiring high intelligence and resourcefulness.
All the while Catholic Europeans made their brightest into priests and monks, banning them from passing on their genes.

It is a fact that Ashkenazi jews score higher on IQ tests than other racial groups and, like it or not, the explanation for that is quite likely to be genetic.
Interesting. Sub-Saharan Africans have an IQ of about that of a Western retard. Do you consider them to be genetically retarded?

graphical x 10-26-2005 08:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief
Interesting. Sub-Saharan Africans have an IQ of about that of a Western retard. Do you consider them to be genetically retarded?
Good thing REAL LIFE is based not just on IQ but on EQ and other intangibles as well.

Odin 10-26-2005 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
Good thing REAL LIFE is based not just on IQ but on EQ and other intangibles as well.
Well for one I think it is a very bad way to measure ones intelligence. Stick a kid in a room for his whole life with nothing to do than take him out and ask him to do an IQ or other test. Now go to the affluent areas of Western society and test people who are White rich kids who have been groomed their whole life to eventually become a judge or something similar. My guess is they would beat most Jews and Asians.

Ultimately it has alot to do with how an individual is raised, the culture they are from, and what is expected of them. I am not discounting all racial differences, but with regards to intelligence I don't really think it is the reason for such wide differences between (for example Asians and Africans).

Africans are simply raised in a simple and essentially 'stupid' environment with low expectations placed on them since birth. Jews, Asians, rich White kids, etc on the other hand are born into a completely different environment.

pornguy 10-26-2005 09:00 PM
Einstine was Jewish. Go figure.

SleazyDream 10-26-2005 09:04 PM
biologically I doubt it.

but statistically due to enviromental concerns I'd say probally yes.

graphical x 10-26-2005 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief
Africans are simply raised in a simple and essentially 'stupid' environment with low expectations placed on them since birth. Jews, Asians, rich White kids, etc on the other hand are born into a completely different environment.

Interesting. John McWhorter (a black professor of linguistics at UC Berkeley) wrote "Losing the Race" ( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books )

His thesis is that black (on the average and regardless of class level) underachievement is due to an "anti-intellectual" environment where someone who seeks to enhance his learning or think critically is deemed as "trying to be white" or being an "Uncle Tom". This is a huge peer disincentive for people to improve themselves. Indeed, there's a huge disparity between IQs of males and females within the black community.

graphical x 10-26-2005 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleazyDream
biologically I doubt it.

but statistically due to enviromental concerns I'd say probally yes.
For Jews, I would think that it is along environmental lines, as well. Talmudic studies throughout the generations along with intracultural 'ranking' based on smarts and wisdom would do that to ANY ethnic group.

For example, Chinese tend to do the same. While Jews had their Talmudic traditions (Toraic text in the middle, commentary/dissent/concurrence in the margins), the Chinese had their Confucian /Mencian annals and long history of civil service exams. There's a long Chinese tradition and respect for scholarship since it separates the peasant from the gentleman/imperial official.

Where the comparison breaks down is the extent each group places on ORIGINAL thinking. Talmudic studies are heavy with opinions, differing opinions, logical experimentation, and lively debate. Chinese 'official' studies on the other hand tend to focus on rote memorization. This may be an emanation of the largely conservative nature of Confucian scholarship. Confucius venerates the PAST and always uses the idealization of the PAST to shape the present and influence the future.

graphical x 10-26-2005 10:04 PM
Probably the best way to debunk "genetic" claims is to do a cross cultural comparison of Jews with other 'middlemen' cultures. Thomas Sowell has a book on this.

Libertine 10-28-2005 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
Your statement contains several problems. You state that by being smarter, they were able to replicate more and pass on their genes. This misses the over 20+ expulsions, periodic killings, and town purges of Ashkenazic Jews in and out of the Pale region. In this case, being smarter in one's profession did not lead to having population advantage... if it did, they would have numerically outstripped the host population of the lands they were living in.
Wrong. They were able to replicate more within their own society. The more intelligent jew would be able to have and raise more children than the less intelligent one, but not necessarily more or less than more or less intelligent non-jewish people.

The jewish community has always kept itself (and has been kept) fairly separated from non-jewish society. Because of that, it has been a different evolutionary group altogether, and has had different implicit criteria (e.g. intelligence) for evolutionary success.

There is no reason to assume that persecution of jews affected the more intelligent ones more strongly than the less intelligent ones, and in fact the opposite seems much more likely. So persecution is indeed an argument for my position, not against it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
You have left out the very potent factors of politics, economic envy, and historic religious hatred that sculpted the experience of Western Jewry.
I didn't. Those things are causes of their persecution, and only relevant insofar as they are related to it. That persecution was a condition which was likely to have played a large part in making high intelligence an evolutionary asset, and thus supports the theory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
As for IQ tests, look at my first post, there's a link there from Thomas Sowell referencing WWI era intelligence tests of Eastern European Jews.
The Stanford-Binet test was created in 1916. It does not seem altogether unlikely that the earliest tests had a very strong cultural bias and were relatively inaccurate, nor does it seem unlikely that a group which immigrated only recently would have special trouble with the biased linguistic and cultural aspects of the test. Furthermore, one can question how representative for the population army tests in WWI were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by graphical x
I have to reiterate... genetic determinism is a very scary proposition regardless of whether it is "positive" or "negative"
Reality sometimes is scary. That is no reason to close our eyes to it though.

Libertine 10-28-2005 04:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief
Interesting. Sub-Saharan Africans have an IQ of about that of a Western retard. Do you consider them to be genetically retarded?
It is commonly known that nutritional deficients during childhood strongly affect mental development, as does possibility for intellectual development (training the brain, so to speak). It is only natural that children deprived of proper nutrition and education will have little chance of becoming geniuses.

There may still be genetic differences, but that's impossible to see because of the huge environmental differences. To make a useful comparison, one needs mostly comparable environments.

abz 10-28-2005 04:30 AM
interesting read

Major (Tom) 10-28-2005 06:42 AM
they can be, in some cases, considered to be genetically inferior. tay sachs is a common ailment effecting jewish people. It is believed to be caused by inbreeding and the manifestion of ressesive traits manifested through such behavior. the bible is full of jews and incest; it's no big secret.
I would say its not genetic that many jews go on to suceed, but rather 1, they stick together and help one another suceed, and 2, education, rather than physical prowess, is stressed in jewish homes more so than in other homes.
That pretty much sums it up :)
Duke

Mr. Marks 11-05-2005 04:41 AM
If the genetic theory is true then there should be no distinctions between Sephardic and Ashkenazic jews in terms of educational achievement. There is. Also, if genetics is the cause of intellectual excellence then why are ethnicities from other parts of the world that engage in the same 'middlemen' type trades that Jews did in Europe exhibit the same higher levels of intelligence.

The fact of the matter is that its all environmental. Believing in genetic determinism in this day and age is some sad shit. The same logic that says group y is superior intellectually can easily 'compel' the conclusion that group a is inferior intellectually on a genetic basis. Very dangerous slippery slope from there.

It's all external.


Quote:
Originally Posted by punkworld
Wrong. They were able to replicate more within their own society. The more intelligent jew would be able to have and raise more children than the less intelligent one, but not necessarily more or less than more or less intelligent non-jewish people.

The jewish community has always kept itself (and has been kept) fairly separated from non-jewish society. Because of that, it has been a different evolutionary group altogether, and has had different implicit criteria (e.g. intelligence) for evolutionary success.

There is no reason to assume that persecution of jews affected the more intelligent ones more strongly than the less intelligent ones, and in fact the opposite seems much more likely. So persecution is indeed an argument for my position, not against it.



I didn't. Those things are causes of their persecution, and only relevant insofar as they are related to it. That persecution was a condition which was likely to have played a large part in making high intelligence an evolutionary asset, and thus supports the theory.




The Stanford-Binet test was created in 1916. It does not seem altogether unlikely that the earliest tests had a very strong cultural bias and were relatively inaccurate, nor does it seem unlikely that a group which immigrated only recently would have special trouble with the biased linguistic and cultural aspects of the test. Furthermore, one can question how representative for the population army tests in WWI were.



Reality sometimes is scary. That is no reason to close our eyes to it though.

kowntafit 11-05-2005 05:11 AM
Interesting... okay I'm over it now.

69pornlinks 11-05-2005 06:55 AM
read....'war against the weak' creating a master race.....

Satisfaction 11-05-2005 07:26 AM
yeh wouldnt suprise me..

Zester 11-05-2005 08:38 AM
interesting read.
don't how much this is relavent: the jews I know are much more creative than non jews.

Libertine 11-05-2005 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by papichulo
If the genetic theory is true then there should be no distinctions between Sephardic and Ashkenazic jews in terms of educational achievement. There is. Also, if genetics is the cause of intellectual excellence then why are ethnicities from other parts of the world that engage in the same 'middlemen' type trades that Jews did in Europe exhibit the same higher levels of intelligence.
Your two statements here illustrate your lacking knowledge of genetics. The distinction between Sephardi and Ashkenazi jews is exactly what you would expect based on intelligence being partly genetically determined, and two groups living under different circumstances (and thus in an environment making other evolutionary demands).
The same goes for other ethnicities from other parts of the world in comparable circumstances also developing high intelligence - if anything, it is an indication that this theory is right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by papichulo
The fact of the matter is that its all environmental. Believing in genetic determinism in this day and age is some sad shit. The same logic that says group y is superior intellectually can easily 'compel' the conclusion that group a is inferior intellectually on a genetic basis. Very dangerous slippery slope from there.

It's all external.
You would deny reality because it doesn't look the way you want? That's just sticking your head in the sand.

Regardless, there isn't much doubt that genetics influence intelligence. Identical twins are more similar in intelligence than non-identical twins, and genes are probably the reason for that. (besides, the difference between different races of dogs - who differ in intelligence - is genetic, as is the difference between humans, dogs and monkeys)
The idea that it's *all* external is considered by almost every credible scientist to be entirely untrue. By making that claim you pretty much destroy your own credibility.

The matter at hand, however, is if there are differences in intelligence between different ethnic groups. Which is a different question altogether.

mikesouth 11-05-2005 10:14 AM
Finally a real racist thread and nobody sees it.....

graphical x 11-11-2005 05:19 AM
My personal take on this is that it is environmental. It has something to do with IMMIGRATION. Basically, you take any immigrant group, most are go getters and first generation pioneers that leave a homeland. They transmit their values to their children and impose pressures for achievement and HIGH EXPECTATIONS (very important!). Plus the occupations they focused on EMPHASIZED (not genetically selected for) the intellect and intellectual skills. Jews in Europe and America were immigrants either directly moving from one country to another or being recently "liberalized" ie., freed from ghettoes (as happened in Germany and in eastern european countries after the Napoleonic wars). Whenever you have competitive immigrants, the cream rises to the top. That's why America is so dynamic right now, it feeds off immigrant energy. Older immigrant groups stagnate, newer skilled (as opposed to unskilled illegal immigrants) immigrants keep boosting the US' vitality.

Same process is happening now --most top universities have a hugely disproportionate number of asians (mostly northern asian--Chinese/ Korean / Japanese). This is due to the fact that they came from families that chose to migrate to the US and compete. They are the cream of a competitive lot with a whole lot of social prestige/pressure on being a top achiever.

Compare that to John McWhorter's lament of black lack of emphasis and discouragement of education ('trying to be white').

Nothing genetic about it.

emthree 11-11-2005 05:56 AM
Praise Jah.

Buzz 11-11-2005 06:01 AM
Once a nation stops proving i'ts uniueness and/or divine origin it won't be brutalized or massacred anymore. it's easy

High Quality 11-11-2005 06:09 AM
Wouldn't that be the asians?

Quagmire 11-11-2005 06:32 AM
Its not so much having superior genes to start with, its the fact that the lower end of the scale was 'cleansed' through time. While being persecuted the smarter ones were able to hide and survive where as the general populous were subject to the wrath of other cultures.


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