antisemite!
:)

Lensman, you prick, do YOU believe in God???
:)

way to go sleepy----------i have heard that before-------super info
hope he looks into thsi

Every now and then I have been known to do something good :)
We used the RM house when our daughter was sick. The place was really nice and everything was free ( good food too ) so I hope they check into it. It may be just what they need.

I believe in the natural forces of the universe. By definition I am agnostic.

An idiot once asked, "If everybody really believed in God then why not kill themselves and go to heaven?"

There must be something that created this world, therefore i believe in God. I also don't believe in a revolution bullshit, where they say we developed from monkeys... if we did WHY then there are still monkeys alive (abit off topic i know :) ) .

hehehehehe I like this post :Graucho

hehe.. oh dear.. i don't believe in revolution either... lol.. also i don't know of any theory that states we developed from monkeys.. plus the theory of evolution perfectly explains why monkeys still exist ie. the "living in a tree eating fruit" niche is still viable..:1orglaugh

people who don't know the difference between Evolution and Revolution,
have only ONE choice-
to believe in EVERYTHING they read on GFY!
;-)))

Not anymore...

Idiots! All of you!
Of course there is a god.

Let's think about a few things (most of which are Carlin's view mixed with Lykis' view)

George and Lykis say, (paraphrased of course) if God has a divine plan, why pray? If god has everything all planned out, why should you go to church and ask for something? What if what you ask for is not in his plan? Should god really change his divine plan around so you can get a better job? Most of the things people pray for a selfish things anyway. Please god help me get a better job. Please god, help me...

Let's move on to something lighter...

The World Trade Center.
There is a god, and yes he knows everything, and so not only did he know it would happen, he allowed it. He made it happen. Enough said about your god.

I became a reverand to help my fellow BornAgain-Christians get a grip on their sexuality. Fags are bad, Silicone tits are good.
Homosexuality is wrong, Teen Lesbians are ok. Understand? It's in the Good Book.

For all you fucking sinners, you can redeem yourself on my site.
http://BornAgain-Christians.com

I believe in GFY

There are plenty of 4,000 year old herding gods from other parts of the world that I dont believe in either.

Yes i Believe
But on the lighter side..
A man has to believe in something, I believe i'll have another beer :glugglug

This is an ancient philosophical debate, and being a former philosophy major, I've had time to really chew on some of the most common defenses for religion. So here are my short answers:

Question 1: is there a God? In the religious sense, obviously not. There is no guy with a white beard sitting on a throne next to his pale-skinned son controlling creation.

Now, the common defenses:

Defense #1: Even if there is no God, there's no harm in believing - it can only help. Religion gives us morals.

Answer: We have morals innately. If we need religion to guide us, then we're not as moral as we'd like to believe, and that immorality will show through in the form of hypocrisy. Moral comes from within, and doesn't require religions. Most atheists I know are the nicest people I've ever met. Most serial killers I've read about were religious zealots of some sort.

And there IS harm in believing: When scientists try to do their work of solving the mysteries of the universe, somehow ancient dogma always finds its way into the picture, putting up every roadblock imaginable in the way of progress (take, for instance, evolution). If we want to learn, we have to stop assuming. If we ever want to learn the truth, we have to keep an open mind - we have to be ready to accept that there may be no higher "guiding" force. We can hope there's a God - that's fine - but once we've accepted that as fact, we've ruled out the possibility of ever learning. The sad fact is that we won't open our minds because we're afraid to learn the truth. We're afraid we'll get the answers we just don't want to hear. So I'd argue that, essentially, it's better NOT to believe. The sooner we all let go of our dogmas and assumptions, the sooner we can get back to learning, growing, and evolving.

There are also other dogmas that go along with every religion that justify a great deal of conflict between various religions. If you don't believe in MY God, and believe in him MY way, then you're wrong, and you're going to hell. Some people believe that so strongly, they're willing to kill those who disagree. So there definitely IS harm in believing.

Defense #2: Pascall's Wager. Even if there is no God, I'm better safe than sorry. If I find out there's no God in the end, then there's nothing lost. If I find out there is, then I hit the jackpot. If I choose not to believe, however, and find out there IS a God, then I've crapped out, and damned myself to an eternity in hell. So the best way to place my chips, to increase my odds of hitting the jackpot, is to believe.

Answer: This is the most common argument I've heard (even though most people using it don't even know where it came from... most have never even heard of Pascall). It's usually in the simple form of "better safe than sorry". And I'll agree with that one, based on the premise that there are only 2 options: to believe or not to believe. But I can shatter those odds by reminding you you that there are hundreds of religions: hundreds of Gods! And not a single one of those religions believes that those who believe in a God different than theirs will go to their version of heaven. So not only do you have to believe, but in order for this argument to work, you also have to choose the right god out of hundreds! So "better safe than sorry" is a really bad wager after all. The odds of heaven are terrible. This argument also depends on the premise that "there's no harm in believing", which, as I said before, there is. There are just too many presumptions for this argument to have any merit.

Defense #3: The Design Argument. This one's popular too, and was even used in this thread. This one comes from an analogy (I forget the details, but this is basically it). A man who has never seen any form of technology is walking down the beach, and comes across a watch in the sand. He picks it up and examines it. He has no idea what it does, or what it is, but through common sense, he knows that the watch has design - purpose. Therefore, it didn't just "fall together". An intelligent, creative being had to put it together for a reason. Likewise, the world is too complex to have just "fallen together". There has to be a creative entity behind it all, with a purpose.

This one does sound convincing. But no scientist ever said that the world just "fell" together. I think the problem is that people just don't get the enormity of the millions and millions of YEARS the Earth has existed. This didn't just happen 10,000 years ago, and many Creationists would have you believe. The world probably started as an unstable ball of rock and gas. But over the MILLIONS of years, it settled, stabilized, adapted, formed life, which in turn adapted, etc. And the evidence is all around us - ancient man doesn't look quite like we do. Monkey look surprisingly human-like. Our appendix serves us absolutely no purpose, but other lesser evolved creatures have a fully functional appendix. Ecosystems have been created in labs in order to observe and study, and it's been found that nature has an uncanny way of adapting and surviving. There are definitely some powerful forces at work, but those forces are likely internal, not external. It's life itself that has power, not some scary all-powerful Zeus character standing on a cloud passing judgment on his children.

Defense #4: Evolution theory is weak at best. It just doesn't answer all of the mysteries. It leaves too many holes.

Answer: You're right. But why is the immediate solution to plug those holes with religion, superstition, dogma, and metaphysics? The answers are there, we just have to accept that we don't know yet. I know that ignorance is scary. I know we want to know where we'll go after we die, and why we're here, and what purpose we serve, and that it's not all just going to end in a flash on the day we die. I understand, because I feel it too. But I'm not going to just quench that fear with the first answer that comes along from a religion zealot and his "I have all the answers" pamphlet. Sure, I'd like to know right now, but I think I'm going to wait until a more reliable answer comes along.

It's ok to say you don't believe in God because if your wrong he made you that way.

Danny, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I want to believe in you. I want you to be my god. Teach me.

The cool thing about being dumb like me is that I can't possibly think of shit like that on my own. Therefore (big word for me) I would rather learn from your example, and misquote you against my neverending fight against organized religion.

Yes, but how many people do bad with the thought, "Well, I can murder this person (or whatever the sin might be) and God will forgive me"? If this is the case, then God is a major cause of the evil in the world, because all the bad people can feel free to do bad shit with a "get out of jail free" card in their back pocket.

You know, it's kind of funny (actually, it's not, but it's ironic). I have an uncle who argued with my mother one night when I was younger... about gays. She argued that being a homosexual hurt absolutely no one. There's no victim, and therefore, surely no compassionate God would send them to hell. My uncle is a bit of a Christian extremist, and argued that gays were obscenities in the eyes of God - wicked perversions, and that they should all be lined up and shot. Basically, he was afraid that if we didn't do something about them soon, Soddom and Ghommorra was going to repeat itself. Now, he's not an evil person, just misguided. He wouldn't actually ever kill a person, even gay (in fact, I think he's changed his mind since then, after becoming friends with somebody who was gay). But religion had him so brainwashed, he thought that homosexuality was going to bring us armageddon. If he had scared the wrong person with that kind of talk, there could be one or two more dead homosexuals in the world.

The irony is that he was light-heartedly advocating murder to get rid of those who pervert the will of God almighty. A homosexual could never get into heaven, yet my uncle could be forgiven his murderous thoughts - because he was a Christian, and could be forgiven any and all sin. Religion is the ultimate crutch for those who feel their deeds alone won't ever get them into heaven.

Yet we'd all like to believe that it takes posting the 10 Commandments in school to instill good moral values in our kids. You know, like:

"I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

or

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy."

You know, good common sense ethics like those. We can't have these damn teenagers forgetting the Sabbath. Imagine all the people who might be disturbed on their day of mimmicking ancient pagan rituals.

I just don't get this whole religion thing. What is the point?

God created us and put us on the earth to worship him. Our only purpose in life is to worship him. Then when we die, if we were good enough, we get to worship him for all time.

What the fuck?

What kind of ego maniac is this God of yours?

I can't stand these religious nut cases now I will be damned if I am going to spend all eternity with these freaks.

updated poll results:

Do You Believe
in God?



Yes I do believe.

(43) 43.4%

No I do not.

(37) 37.4%

No comment. I'm playing it safe.

(19) 19.2%

Total votes: 99


VERY interesting!

Oh, I got a company mixed up with a person, I think. I said Pascall... that's suppposed to be Pacal (in case anybody wants to do some research), as in Pascal's Wager.

I did a little research for you, and found a good reading on Pascal here. http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/p/pasc-wag.htm If you've ever used the "better safe than sorry" argument, read this to learn where your line of reasoning originated.

A little history first: philosophers had been debating since Socrates whether or not there was a God. Theists (starting with Plato himself) tried their hardest to come up with proof that a God exists (including some of the one's I mentioned, like the design argument). All of these efforts failed, and theists finally were forced to resign to the fact that if there is a God, his existence just can't be proven. So then theist philosophers tried a new strategy: basically, they said, "We can't prove he exists, but belief vs. disbelief is still a decision every person needs to make, so we're going to prove that the best option of the two is belief." That's where Pascal comes in. It was a great try, but just like the "evidence" that God exists, it's too simplistic, and is full of holes.

If you guys don't know much about the history of religion, you should really do some research. It's pretty interesting how mundane and political it all really is. It's fun to trace back the progression, and to see how current religions evolved into what they are today. Christianity, for all its denouncement of paganism, is largely inspired by paganism. For instance, there was a pagan holiday on December 25, and on that day they would hold a ritual in which they would decorate a tree, etc. When Christianity came along, they didn't want to give up that ritual (it was too much fun, I guess), and Christmas was born. You know December 25th isn't really Jesus's birthday, right?

Another interesting thing I've learned: the soul doesn't come from the bible. It comes from Plato (as a depiction of Socrates awaiting execution), and was based on simple reasoning (though flawed reasoning). It would take forever to explain his theory, but the idea of the soul was basically borne out of Plato's fear of losing all the knowledge he had attained during his life. So he put together some logical evidence that he thought proved that the body was finite, but that the reasoning (the mind, the soul) was infinite, and could never decay. He was the first person to ever suggest that the body and the mind (soul) were seperate. He believed that, during life, a philosopher's goal was to prepare for death by acquiring knowledge during life. That knowledge then became immortal, as a part of the soul, even after the body had long since decayed. The idea of the soul stuck, and we've believed in it ever since... even though his reasoning has been torn to pieces by philosophers over the years.

I'm pointing these things out because I think people tend to take them for granted. But when you learn where many of the concepts we've always assumed God told his disciples actually originated, it puts them in a different light. They were just philosophical debates in the beginning - no more, no less. Then somebody came along and decided to use them to advance his political agenda, and the masses, promised an eternal afterlife (along with the prospect of hell if they didn't obey) flocked the churches in droves. Religion has been our burden ever since. Think about it.

:)

does the party goat have a herding god?

well it's easier to convert somone if they still get to keep their traditions.. look at the way different cultures combine christianity and their pre-missionary beliefs..


i strongly object to this.. anyone who thinks that evolutionary theory is "weak at best" has a lot more reading to do before they comment further.. i will assume you were referring to the "doesn't answer all the mysteries" part.
Regarding the "argument from design" a fantastic book to get is the "blind watchmaker" by richard dawkins.. which as you may be able to infer from the title plays on the idea of evolution being a blind watchmaker as a much more powerful tool than any form of design intent.

it is indeed fun to go back and look at how the major religions were formed - like the flood myth of the ancient sumerians being incorporated into noah's ark and so on...

whos god ?

Oh, you're right. I didn't mean evolution theory was weak, I meant that there were still mysteries left to be explained. The problem, I think, is that mankind doesn't like unsolved puzzles, so they fill those gaps with the first answers that come along, and call it Creationism. Unfortunately, that's not science.

I only meant that we have to stop pretending we have the answers.

I'm sure most of you, even people who haven't studied philosophy, have heard the story about Bruce Lee (taken from a more ancient source, though I'm not sure where it originated). A student from another school came in, and wanted to learn Jeet Kune Do. Bruce Lee started the lesson, and the student said, "Oh, yeah, that's like what I learned in my other martial art."... or something to that effect. Bruce Lee grabbed an empty cup, and said, "This cup is empty right now." He filled it with water. "Now it's full." When he poured more water in, it spilled over the top. Bruce Lee said, "You have to empty your cup, before I can begin to teach you." It's this assumption that we already have the answers that I was referring to.

The strongest theory going is definitely evolution theory. In fact, evolution itself is proven as well as science can prove something. It's also proven by simple common sense logic. It's the origins of the world and mankind that are still open to debate... and I'd put my money on evolution over millions of years... and singularity theory (though singularity theory is starting to draw some doubt from the scientific community).

yar. this is all true. though, the only thing worse than creationism is creation science... trying to have their cake and eat it too amkes them come off even more foolish..
I do believe the origins of mankind are a lot more concrete than the origins of the world though :) (if you meant the worlkd in the big bang sense)

plus anyone that can bring bruce lee into a theological argument is alright by me :)

When I say Creationism, I'm really referring to Creation science... which isn't really a science. REAL science admits ignorance first, and then looks for answers using non-biased, objective standards. Creationist science assumes the answers, then tries to find evidence to back them up. I'm sorry, but that's just not science. And I've looked into their methods and their discoveries... it's all pretty biased and weak to me. They use the "fill the gaps" method that I mentioned before. They say, "Carbon dating can sometimes be inaccurate, so you can't PROVE that the world is millions of years old." This much they've proven... and I'll concede that carbon dating isn't 100% accurate. But then they say, "So, since you can't prove the world is that old, it was created 6000 years ago by God." Sorry, but that doesn't constitute science.

Damn, I already argued this on the XBiz board not too long ago... now I'm working myself up again. I'm getting worried that they're going to manage to get Creationism taught as a science in public schools, and that my daughter is going to be taught that nonsense as a science by teachers she looks up to. I feel pretty strongly about keeping ALL religion out of my daughter's curriculum. Anyway, I don't want to argue this with people again... let's work our way back to the plain old "Is there a god" debate. :)

Lets clear up before those who have never allowed there minds to ponder beyond Boobs in there lifetime assume when I say god, that I would mean an organized religion, I dont, In fact I detest most of it...

I believe Politics & Religion brought the World Trade Center down...

I believe in the existance of something higher than myself and the material world, human knowledge, or simply following things my science teacher taught me, whether it be a higher intellegence, mass consiousness, or simply an inner force in all of us that creates our own existance.

I also believe Scientific reason and Materialism is as much a religion as christianity, judiasm etc.., So for many of those who are so "above" others in stateing a belief, or as some have said "being weak" Bow now to your paycheck and dirt you sheep!

So, Yes I believe, In what? we may never know...

Damn,
I'm almost tempted to consider going back to school to learn what Danny_C knows.

...almost tempted to consider...


I can't wait to use Danny's theories against my boss' BornAgain Christian brother. I kinda want to call and wake him up to call him an idiot. LOL

Danny_C thanks for the insight. I wish someone here would try to disprove your theories so we can here you debate more.

By the way how old is your daughter? Mine is just 2 months old, and I also want her to make up her own mind about how we are who we are, and how we got here.

I told my wife about that most serial killers were religious, she laughed. Reading up about serial killers, (John Douglas is her favorite crime auhor) is sort of a hobby. She finds it interesting.
I guess we all have a morbid sense of curiosity.

She's also found that almost all killers have frontal lobe damage. It's what allows them to kill without remorse. Most of it comes from abuse as children.

I wonder if there is a connection between brain damage and born agains? LOL

Hallelujah Lady Sharlot, you got that right :Graucho

I firmly believe in the old Carlin theory...

Thou shalt keep thy RELIGION to thyself.

:glugglug

I haven't read any of the previous posts...but I'm going to blurt out my thoughts...I believe that "We Are All One". Each and every one of us, as well as all things, are individuations of the one...the isness that was, all exploded (the big bang), and thus created the frame of reference we know as reality.

We are all tiny little pieces of god that decided to forget this fact in order to enjoy "remembering" that is re-membering...to come together once again with that that is love, god, the one whatever.


There is no "right" and no "wrong", no one goes to hell...unless they create it for themselves...hitler goes to heaven...there must be light to be dark and vice versa...all things are of one source...the differences in the allow us to experience all sides of our existence...but in the end "We are All ONE" this is the new gospel....dig it...or don't...don't make much difference. But the fact remains that all the pain and suffering in the world arises from the fact that people view eachother as separate and that there is not enough of anything to go around.

i believe in myself all other stuff is crap and unnatural :1orglaugh

No I dont!

I belive in being a higher being:stoned

oops a higher power, but not in an institutional religon based on

nothing but ancient scripture which has been manipulated over

the centuries by the powers to be at any given time. To suit what

ever they deem important for the "flock", so let us tell YOU what

it all means in the grand scheam of things.

I have my own opinions and feelings and don't need somebody

else to tell me that it is or isn't according too the good book.

My

:2 cents:

You scary fuck! That's actually very close to my personal view of "god." We all embody the one thing an omnipotent, omnipresent entity could never be: an individual. When we die we take our experiences with us to enrich the universe. FOr some reason my friends find this more disturbing than if I told them I was an athiest. Guess we'll just have to wait and see....

i do believe in god

i mostly see 2 types of people that do not..

1. They just can't belive that there is a god, because they can't feel its existense.. They never witnessed anything that would convince them to believe in such a thing. If you dont belive, you just dont believe.

2. They belive there is always a scientific explanation for everything in existence. There is no unsolveable mysteries. Nothing is created or setup by a superior being.


I have been very interested in science all my life. I read books about chemistry, physics and astronomy. The more i read, the more i believed in god and how he made it possible for all this to happen.
I always hated English classes and writing essays, thats why i am keeping this short, and i am not gonna spend time here trying to prove i am correct or not. It took me years to learn everything i know right now, and its not possible to explain it all in a few sentences.

Just be happy with what you believe in, and dont try to convince other people that they are wrong..

Lane

Lead me not into temptation. I can find it myself.

and do you believe in SPAMers too?

http://spamwealth.com
is a new proggy from the old face we all know and love!
:)

Nick believes is God and Devil!!!!
:Graucho

no

I personally like Carl Sagan's thoughts on the subject, to wit:
that science is mankind's only reliable tool in the discovery of truth, and that faith only covers up our fears and stifles our search for answers

are you high ?

We can all sit here and speculate if there is a "god" or not but hell we will never know.

While others pontificate using $10 and $20 words to prove to the rest of the world how their education has taught them there is no God and only fools would believe in one...well I've got one thing to say to this:
There are no atheists in foxholes.

I guarantee you your faith will be tested and prayers will be uttered the day you are staring down the barrel of a gun whether it be a military enemy or just some punk ass gangster wannabe jacking you for your ride at the 7-11.

Your knees will bow down to the being that doesn't exist the day your child, friend, sibling or parent is told they are going to die.

Although some of you will break under less strenuous circumstances...like worrying about covering a bill, or your girlfriend decides to leave you.

My point is that we as human beings need to check our egos at the door and quit pretending that we have all the answers one way or another and that we can all handle this shit on our own.

Life is nothing but a series of lessons strung together and your measure of faith or lack there of will be tested time and time again.

Now don't get me wrong...I am not stating as others would that a "god" will throw obstacles in your way to test your faith or to punish you for lacking faith...life does that on it's own as well as human kind...what I am stating is that you should NEVER SAY NEVER because that's the hardest crow to eat.

As for me I believe in God...as for those who say which god is the real god? ...I kind of look at it like this...they are all the real god just variations on similar stories and how his/her image came to be known in each society.

Sorta like the variations on the Santa Claus legend.

But it is mankind's ego once again that gets into play when it becomes...my god is the only god etc.

I will back off this thread now thank you :)

sasush's intellectuality in such topics impresses me ;)

sasush i have a new proxy list for your hitbot.

Current God got you down? Looking for a new, more exciting Diety? LOOK NO FURTHER! www.subgenius.com Eternal Salvation for $35! Titmowse and I look forward to welcoming you into the arms of Bob!

My daughter turns 5 in less than a month (April 3). She starts school this next school year.

In response to your comment about going back to school, I can say that philosophy was the most mind-opening and interesting subject in college... I can't believe how unpopular it is. I even had people in my classes, while I was sitting there completely captivated, saying, "I hate this damn class." I just don't get that. And to think, it was philosophy that started higher education in the 1st place... by Plato. That's where the word Academy comes from. That's why, the PhD (Doctor of Philosophy) is the the ultimate academic goal.

In response to Lane: You proved my point, I think. You're implying that some believers have seen things that forced them to believe. Well, I've seen unexplainable events, but I admit that they're unexplainable given my current knowledge. I don't just automatically attribute them to some deity throwing lightning bolts around and opening a free channel between heaven and John Edwards.

In response to Eroswebmaster: I think at least part of this might have been directed at me (correct me if I'm wrong). I'm not arguing that there is no God. I'm arguing that accepting his existence without proof is a mistake. I'm arguing against assumptions, which is what all religion rests on. I have to say, though, that I've seen most arguments on both sides of that debate, and the disbelievers do seem to be winning on the basis of evidence. I can give some more classical philosophical debates if you want, just over whether or not he exists.

The rest of your argument is invalid, though. Whether or not a person wants to believe there's an afterlife when he or she is facing death has nothing to do with rational thought. It does nothing to validate or to invalidate belief in the existence of God. It's just the purely human reaction of a person not to want everything to end, and especially for a soldier to want forgiveness for the lives he's contributed to taking.

And you have to think, most people are raised in Christian families... the concept of God is instilled at a young, impressionable age. Even if rational thought takes over at some point, it's hard to shake that deep-down fear that maybe, just maybe, there really is a God. Personally, I wouldn't pray, or ask for forgiveness from anyone other than the people I may have hurt in life. Asking God for that forgiveness would be a cop out.

Maybe there are no atheists in foxholes because atheists don't put complete faith in things they can't trust. Unless they know exactly why they're killing a person, they're not just going to do it out of love for country or God. So really, you've just validated another of my arguments: that religion is politically motivated. Governments instill religion in order to get those people into foxholes (among other things). If our government encouraged free thought, hell, it might mean the end of wars, and that would be a disaster. It would mean the end of propaganda, and shameless marketing... all those things we've come to accept as "American staples". Anyway, I'm starting to get sidetracked...

I gotta eat dinner... be back for more soon...

I belive in myselfe.

Danny C my post was not entirely directed to you and my argument is not invalid

My whole point summed up is just never say never which is basically what you did.

"I wouldn't pray, or ask for forgiveness from anyone other than the people I may have hurt in life. Asking God for that forgiveness would be a cop out."

You say that now...but the extent of your faith or lack of has possibly never been tested.

Regardless of what you think a person's state of mind is if and when any of these circumstances come about life changing events can and will happen and in some of those cases people's beliefs are altered in such a way that they may never change back. In other words people who didn't believe in a supreme being now do.

This kind of an event happent not only to my mother very recently but both of my grandparents and I won't go into details because I would hate to defend an extraordinary family experience that occured in my family that confirms my beliefs.

I kind of like the way Lane summed it up:
They just can't belive that there is a god, because they can't feel its existense.. They never witnessed anything that would convince them to believe in such a thing. If you dont belive, you just dont believe.


Hey man I'm not trying to convert you or anything...I just hate to hear people talking in absolutes either way....when all that we can go by is hope and faith whether that be in a supreme being, mankind or self...sometimes it's all 3.

eros :)