Joe sometimes gets confused :winkwink:

Yeah, I've heard about it, but I'm assuming when the government makes ammo illegal they're also gonna make gunpowder and shell casings illegal too.

I prefer not needing a gun. I may have a right to own a lunar buggy too, but it is just as useful to me as a gun is here. I would prefer to have the right to live in a society free of gun violence. That's a freedom I have that you don't.

Not confused at all.

Like I've always said, I don't mind giving up the right to own a gun. I'll willingly exchange it for the right to live in a society free of gun violence.

Its about 9:30 pm here in my part of America and our doors are open and the only thing keeping the "dreaded and scary" american criminals out are a screen door. Its not near as bad as people make it out to be.

If your looking for trouble in ANY country it can be found.

same here!

no wait..1 time I saw some machine guns...it involved native americans....even if I had a gun..I woudl've kept the shit hidden...

no i'm not kidding LOL!

You make it sound like eliminating guns eliminates violence period. You don't honestly belive that, do you?

Do the dead care if they were murdered by a gun, knife or rope?

"Well I got murdered, I'm just glad it wasn't done with a gun".

After banning handguns, did the violent crime rate plummet in Australia? Not as far as I can tell. In fact, there's very little change at all. Why is that? Looks like the murder rate fell slightly between 2002 and 2003, but guess what, it's on the way down in the United stats, too.
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/f...04/tab01a.html

Well to each his own, but as you can imagine your freedoms aren't what I would want and vice versa it seems. I assume you're still in Australia, are there no guns used in crime there anymore since they were banned?

BTW, shell casings are typically recycled from old cartridges. Gunpowder can be made, if needed, from raw ingredients (though not the smokeless powder that modern firearms use). Bullets can be cast easily, etc. Although it's much easier to just stockpile it beforehand than it is to make it when it's needed :)

It's a fact that a gun in the house is 100X more likely to be used on another family member over a drunken argument of the TV remote than to be used to stop a rape or robbery.

By the way, contrary to popular belief guns are not banned in Australia.

OK so some peopl;e that wear seat belts die so let not have ANYONE wear seatbelts. That's your logic?

Likelyhood of a man armed with a knife killing 25 people in a McDonald's vs using a semi-automatic?

To use the logic that criminals will still use guns is also stupid. We have laws against rape and rapists still rape so logically we should just make rape legal then.

Deaths by firearm have halved in Australia in the last 10 years.

What the fuck are you talking about? You don't understand at all, as usual.

My point was more a long the lines of does it really matter if seatbelt use is mandatory if you get run over by a bus?

That is, exactly how much better off are you being safe from "gun violence", when violence it's self is still present.

Is it better to be murdered by a gun or by a knife or does it not really matter at all if you're dead?

Great, deaths from fireams have been cut in half in the last 10 years. Has the murder rate been cut in half too or is it relatively the same +/- 7%?

See what I'm getting at? If you're killed by a knife, is that somehow better than being killed by a gun? To me, dead is dead. :2 cents:

Media release
National picture of crime and justice released today

No. 3/05, 3 Mar 2005

Australian Institute of Criminology Director, Dr Toni Makkai, today released 'Australian Crime: Facts and Figures 2004', which serves as a ready reference for Australian crime statistics.

Facts and Figures provides trend and recent data on different types of recorded crime; crime victimisation; alleged offenders; and on criminal courts, corrections and criminal justice resources.

Dr Makkai said 'the report provides a national picture of crime and justice throughout Australia for the period 1996 to 2003'.

'Overall the figures show that there have been declines across almost all of the major crimes in Australia, particularly for property offences which accounted for 85% of all major crimes in 2003' Dr Makkai reported.

The homicide rate was at its highest in 1999 with a rate of 2.04 per 100,000 of the population. This dropped to 1.7 per 100,000 of the population in 2003.

The rate for robbery peaked at 137 per 100,000 of the population in 2001, the highest recorded since 1996. Since 2001 rates have declined by 28% to 99 per 100,000 of the population.

The rate of assault increased steadily from 623 victims per 100,000 people in 1996 to 815 per 100,000 people in 2002, before declining by 2% to 798 per 100,000 in 2003.

The number of sexual assaults increased between 2002 and 2003 by approximately 1%. This was the only offence to record an increase during this period.

This is the seventh publication in the series which is published annually by the AIC.

While the AIC has been collecting and analysing data for the past 30 years, the availability of national statistics on major crimes is a relatively recent phenomenon. This publication makes use of those national statistics as well as a variety of other sources.

The full report can be found at: http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2004/.

with all the deaths in NO due to lack of response, you'd still argue that the gov should be relied upon to protect its citizens? I personally know people who use your arguments and have your basic stance on the gun issue and i can tell you that not one of them has been a victim of a violent crime. There are also those who've argued as you do against guns who've found themselves in a situation where they have no control that would of otherwise been available had they been trained and had a weapon for defense. When 2 crackheads break into your house and you're left defenseless and eventually tied up waiting for that bullet to the back of the head, you can think about your anti gun stance and what might of been different had they entered your room and saw you pointing a shotgun at their heads. if we banned weapons as you said, the only people left without them would be the citizens who'd turn them over. with our current border situation, you can get almost any weapon you desire if you're a criminal and having even a small pistol in a neighborhood where you know with a certainty no one has a gun, because they are outlawed, you are left open to prey on whomever you choose.

So even though the number of deaths caused by guns has dropped 50%, the number of homicides has not dropped by a number anywhere close to that.

United States: The violent crime rate decreased 3.9% from 2002 to 2003. From 1994 to 2003 the rate fell 33.4%.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm

Stangely enough, in the United States, violent crime is also on the way down, without having to ban handguns.

Do you see my point at all here? You're safer from gun violence, but not safer from violence in a proportionate way.

Nice way to distort the figues. We were talking about homicide rates we're we not? It's a lot easier to deal with a fist in the face than a bullet in the face wouldn't you say?

Lets take a look. As I have shown, the homicide rate in Australia is around 2 per 100,000 people. The rate in the USA (even after recent falls) was around 7 per 100,000 people (2001). So the USA has a homicide rate around 350% higher than Australia.

Bottom line: High levels of gun ownership promotes a culture of violence and results in much higher homicide rates.

i never believed in having weapons in the house. i even handled all kinds of weapons in the military, so i know how to use them.

but with all the bullshit going on now days, i got one last week to protect my family and home.

i bought a Taurus PT 24/7 .45 caliber. (triple lock)

to many haters and racist who hate to see somebody make an honest living or have more then them.

i've seen to many voilent clips here at this site to not have one.

i'm going to get my permit next week to conceal it legally.

Of course it's easier to deal with a fist in the face than a bullet. According to your logic though, shouldn't your homicide rate have fallen a number somewhat proportionate to the decrease in gun related deaths?

If homicide by gun is down 50% (let's say), and homicide it's self is only down 7% (let's say), doesn't that suggest that people are finding other ways to kill people, even without a gun?

I think it's more than just gun ownership. I think it's the entire culture in the united states including population density, social status, racial makeup, etc. Trying to pin is soley on gun ownership is kind of ignorant.

While I won't argue the statistics you've shown, the conclusion you've drawn (your bottom line) doesn't necessarily correspond to the reasons you've claimed.

What is the population in Australia? Couldn't it be that the disparity in homicide rates has something to do with population density? With a greater ethnic diversity? With varying income levels? Certainly there must be some reason people are commiting more homicides other than 'guns exist'?

Not at all. Gun control aims to control gun violence/deaths. You need other measures in place to control other violence/murder which has nothing to do with the availability of guns.

I never stated that gun control was going to do away with muder all together, but I think we've made a good start in Australia. Down to 2 per 100,000 people. A lot of that has to do with gun control.

Do you really think that the USA's high homicide rate has nothing to do with their culture of violence and high levels of gun ownership?

Australia is the most urbanised country on Earth with more than 80% of citizens living in the seven major cities. We are also amongst the most multicultural countries on Earth.

The USA for whetever reason is simply a more violent place. I could give my opinion but ultimately that would just be my opinion but I think that the availability of guns has a lot to do with it.

Maybe America does have something to learn from other countries after all?

I hope it doesn't try, I happen to like it the way it is for the most part :)

How much of the world have you seen?

It's down to 2 per 100,000 people from what? Maybe you can find the Austalian goverment numbers, but the only source I have shows the homicide rate in Austarlia from 10 years ago to be about 1.87 per 100,000. So in fact, there's been a slight increase over 10 years, with a decrease starting in around 2002-2003. Again, I'm not entirely sure how accurate these numbers are.

Of course high percentage of gun ownership plays a part in it. I think there's other factors that are more important though including:

Population Density
Racial Violence
Differences between the haves and have nots (Social status)

I've never had any real desire to leave the North American continent. It's big enough and has plenty to see. I have been all over the USA however.

I haven't "needed" to use mine thank God. I pray I never have to..

It does make me feel better knowing I am able to protect myself and my family though.

Ok! Riiiiiiiiiiiiight! And I have the weather maching that makes all the hurricanes hit the US

Ditto - 11:30 here and my doors are open or unlocked and my car keys are sitting in the unlocked car along with my wallet. And I have guns :)

Living where I do there are very few people who DON'T own guns. I've been here for 4+ years and we've not had a gun murder or armed robbery.

In that case, I don't see how you can judge other countries or say with any authority whatsoever that America is better than any other country when you have no frame of reference.

The television is not a substitute for real travel.

150.........

I know that I like it here, and that I wouldn't like to see any of the changes you've mentioned regarding gun control happen here. I don't need to travel to figure that out. In fact I don't see what the one has to do with the other at all.

I have travelled to other countries btw, I've just not left the North American continent.