The European Lee Saga - Last Thread Ever!!!

[BlueDesignStudios]

Lee has repeatedly said that he would pay his design bill based on the comments and opinions of GFY. This is a shameful way to do business and sets a dangerous precedent for designers, where clients can avoid paying design bills for two years and then only pay based on the opinion of those on GFY.

So here it is folks - the vote that Lee wanted so badly.

You are voting for the side you believe IS IN THE RIGHT:

European Lee: Ordered a design two years ago, said they were PERFECT & DONE, then never paid, claims he would pay the invoice, then he said he wouldn't, then a hurricane occurred preventing Lee from responding to my emails for 1+ year. Now he claims he is unhappy with the design itself (though his email history from last year indicates he was VERY HAPPY with the design). Lee has publicly stated he will pay up based on the opinions of GFY, and claims he shouldn't have to pay for a design he doesn't like (even if it's taken him two years to reach that conclusion)

BlueDesignStudios: Designed Lee's site to meet all of lee's specifications and criteria, lee was admittedly very happy with the design at the time. Since then, have spent much time chasing lee up for payment for the design, putting up with a range of new excuses for why he will or won't pay. Have never received a penny for the site that met all of lee's criteria.

Ok and here is what's up for grabs:

European Lee wins: lee does not have to pay for the design, and the subject will not be raised again (unless lee brings it up again)

Blue Design Studios wins: We don't want lee's money, it's a matter of principle. We request that payment for the design goes to our designated charity, Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF).

We are hopeful that some good will come out of this situation. Lee is without a doubt the lowest form of life we have encountered in the adult industry.

[BlueDesignStudios]

And here are the designs, first with lee's comments, in chronological order:

From: Lee Windsor, 8th February 2004

As it stands we are looking to get a design similar in layout to www.gaywidewebmasters.com although we want to keep the existing color scheme on

European Webmasters for this new design.




From: Lee Windsor, 12th February 2004

3 is the one we like

Couple of small changes though that will need to be made.

1) Please select your country to enter needs to go.

2) The navigation on the bottom, can you have that changed to graphics in a similar style to that on the index1 version however, we still need the flags to

remain where they are and also to be in their own cell as they are now so we can change them around.

3) Also on the logo itself can you move the logo text further up in the arc and then move the logo further down the page, does that make sense?

I think once thats done we're good to go on the splash page




From: Lee Windsor, 13th February 2004


Few changes that need to be made to the main page design on EW.

Can find a screengrab of these marked changes at:

http://www.webmasteradvertising.com/ewsample.jpg

1) Logo needs to be smaller.. its just to big atm

2) Header height needs to be made smaller again, just to much of the page being wasted by the header right now

3) The cut corner needs to be removed, just looks naff

4) Navigation should form part of the header itself like it does on www.gaywidewebmasters.com makes it easier for us to use ssi on the site then

5) Dont really like that effect as a page opening

6) Needs to have some kind of footer to close the page off instead of just 'ending'

7) Text there should be graphical as a part of the actual image, prefer it to read 'Hot Sites'

8) Text again should be graphical as (7) above, prefer it to read ' Industry News'

9) Need to have some sort of background shading instead of just a white space to put text in bro.

10) As it stands the way the page is cut wont make it possible for me to fit an annual spot like we have on the directory + forums of GWW, that needs to

be changed so we can put a 740x60 banner rotation between the page header and the main body of each page.

11) Page needs to be wider, prefer it to be 740 pixels in width




From: Lee Windsor, 8th June 2004


also the map on the main page logo in the top right still needs to come out of the brown background more

other than that i think we are done




Lee Windsor, ICQ, 4th July 2004:

okay the main page is looking good one thing that does need to be changed is the mustard color in the main header now other that its perfect


Lee Windsor, ICQ, 7th July 2004:

then its just making a button and banner for recips and we;re done


Lee Windsor, ICQ, 17th July, 2004, when asked when we can expect payment for the European Webmaster design:

itll be in the next few days bro waiting on a payment myself hehe





And here is the work that Lee described as "perfect" & "done" in June 2004:

http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/1/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/2/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/3/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/.../main_eng.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...w_banners.html

[AsianDivaGirlsWebDude]

Based upon what I have read, I have to side with BSD on this.

Nice of you to donate the money to Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) too.

ADG Webmaster

[Roald]

Based upon what I have read, I have to side with BSD on this.

Same here, still think this is pulled out of proportian though

[baddog]

just wondering . . . do you trust anything he says? He has already proven himself to be a liar time and time again. What makes you think anything will be different this time?

[BlueDesignStudios]

just wondering . . . do you trust anything he says? He has already proven himself to be a liar time and time again. What makes you think anything will be different this time?

Lee has publicaly stated on GFY that he would pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY

Do I expect Lee to pay up? I doubt he will, he's promised he would many times in the future.

I just hope he is mature enough to admit he is in the wrong, apologize, and pay up

[Roald]

I just hope he is mature enough to admit he is in the wrong, apologize, and pay up

lol good luck with that ;)))

[BlueDesignStudios]

lol good luck with that ;)))

I detect a hint of sarcasm in your voice

[Persignup Qon]

only cat that's gonna vote for lee r probably his fuck buddies & scam cronies. overwhelming he is wrong. u did the work, he won't pay. there really is no question here.




..

[brand0n]

if anyone does biz with euro lee you need a check up from the neck up

[BlueDesignStudios]

only cat that's gonna vote for lee r probably his fuck buddies & scam cronies. overwhelming he is wrong. u did the work, he won't pay. there really is no question here.

..

Thanks for the support

[Fletch XXX]

i have dealt with this kind of scammer many times.

alternate revision after revision until happy and then they try to get out of paying.

ive had this happen many times, you have to keep chasing them down for money.

lee should not be trusted ever, this is scamming straight up ANY DESIGNER will tell you. this is the run around scam.

[BlueDesignStudios]

i have dealt with this kind of scammer many times.

alternate revision after revision until happy and then they try to get out of paying.

ive had this happen many times, you have to keep chasing them down for money.

lee should not be trusted ever, this is scamming straight up ANY DESIGNER will tell you. this is the run around scam.

no doubt it's a scam - he himself said the design was 'perfect' and 'done' over a year ago - and now he's trying every excuse in the book to avoid paying for it

[Cory W]

i have dealt with this kind of scammer many times.

alternate revision after revision until happy and then they try to get out of paying.

ive had this happen many times, you have to keep chasing them down for money.

lee should not be trusted ever, this is scamming straight up ANY DESIGNER will tell you. this is the run around scam.

That is crazy.

People pay for designs they do not like all the time, I know I have before. I didn't know it was an option?

[Cory W]

I am going to Venice Beach next weekend. I am going to have one of the gypsys draw a portrait of me and then say, "nah, doesn't look like me. Sorry for the business you could have had while you were drawing that."

Haha

[mardigras]

I only clicked on this thread because it said last one ever.
I'll probably post in the next one with a link to this one

[Paco, of Large Cash.]

Based on the text/conversation: Pay your bill Lee! Did your mama never teach you about scumbags?

... and if this is how you are going to conduct yourself, you'll be selling used cars from a trailer, very soon.

[aflex]

Design seems cool with me, and it seems like BDS kept up with the changes Lee requested. Whats the problem Lee? You should have paid for it especially after all them changes.

BDS, I give you props for requesting the payment be made to a charity.

[SeniorX]

I am not surprised, can't see how someone like Lee, who was turning down good business years ago, could afford to pay for anything. Definitely not a business person.

[AcidMax]

To me, from what I read, Lee agreed to the design with the comments "we are done", really it doesn't matter if the design had a big pile of shit on it, if Lee agreed to it, he should pay.

I have not seen much in the way from Lee other than name calling, starting shit, and asking BDS to offer up info. From the info I have seen, it looks like Lee agreed to the design and therefore should pay up, regardless of how good/bad the design looks.

[TheLegacy]

since you have created two threads on the same subject, I will simply copy and paste my answer in both.
------------------

why isnt this being dealt in the courts? As much as I can sympathize with blue design - by posting threads like this, you are giving Lee the opportunity to sue you for slander and defamation of character - which will allow him to sue for more than 550$ should he be able to prove that this has hurt his reputation in doing business.

Simply take him to small claims court and deal with it there - I assume you had a contract - invoice etc that he acknowledges he received?

[graphicsbytia]

Andrew, You've handled this thing beautifuly, I commend you for offering to give the money to charity.

Lee.. you ought to be ashamed of yourself, trying to drag Andrew's name through the mud like this.. he had no choice but to answer your claims and defend himself, and he did a nice job on that.

Who is ever going to want to do design for you again? I hope you can do it yourself because no one in their right mind will ever trust you.

and Legacy, I don't think Lee's reputation has been damaged from this at all.. it's all the truth, and from what I understand.. Andrew isn't the only one that has some truths on his side. Don't you see that the boards is where he had to do this? You can't just let someone post negative things about you and not say anything.

I hope you get the money Andrew.. but I'm thinking that Lee probably would rather loose his whole business than pay out 1 cent.. not very smart.. but this is just my take on it

[eroswebmaster]

All that for $550.00?

Jeez man, the way people around here treat designers is just pathetic.

[TheLegacy]

and Legacy, I don't think Lee's reputation has been damaged from this at all.. it's all the truth, and from what I understand.. Andrew isn't the only one that has some truths on his side. Don't you see that the boards is where he had to do this? You can't just let someone post negative things about you and not say anything.

I am not debating that he deserves is money, and I do commend him for his patience on this whole issue. why Lee isnt doing anything I feel is that he knows something that few on GFY dont - the adult world does not revolve around this board.

Someone can post something negative about you on this board, and if you dont respond to it, then chances are as Lee knows - it wont have an impact on your business as much as most of gfy'ers would like to think. I hate to make this wake up call, but many are either non industry people or those that are keyboard warriors that dont have an impact on the adult world as a whole - and surprisingly to some - many actually make a living and survive for years without even posting on GFY. I speak to hundreds of webmasters a month that never even heard of this board much less the drama that comes down here.

Lets face it - Lee's main source of income is from the gay community - few of which visit this board, many of whom dont really pay much attention to the drama on here.

If it is truly owed then I want to see Blue get their money - but sadly and honestly - it is not going to come from posting on one board that is viewed mostly by who dont have anything to do with the gay industry at all. So how is this going to bother? much less force lee to do anything about it?

[Pipecrew]

hahaha lee is getting worked, never seen a poll like this, good job.

[CDSmith]

Hey look, 5 of Lee's fake nicks have voted for him.

How cute :D

[graphicsbytia]

I am not debating that he deserves is money, and I do commend him for his patience on this whole issue. why Lee isnt doing anything I feel is that he knows something that few on GFY dont - the adult world does not revolve around this board.

Someone can post something negative about you on this board, and if you dont respond to it, then chances are as Lee knows - it wont have an impact on your business as much as most of gfy'ers would like to think. I hate to make this wake up call, but many are either non industry people or those that are keyboard warriors that dont have an impact on the adult world as a whole - and surprisingly to some - many actually make a living and survive for years without even posting on GFY. I speak to hundreds of webmasters a month that never even heard of this board much less the drama that comes down here.

Lets face it - Lee's main source of income is from the gay community - few of which visit this board, many of whom dont really pay much attention to the drama on here.

If it is truly owed then I want to see Blue get their money - but sadly and honestly - it is not going to come from posting on one board that is viewed mostly by who dont have anything to do with the gay industry at all. So how is this going to bother? much less force lee to do anything about it?

I agree with what you say, but my main point wasn't that this will force Lee to pay, but that BDS has a lot of customers on this board, so this is where he needed to answer.

You're right about Lee not having anything to loose here.. that's the worst part of all this, that he can come here and do this, then go back to his own community as if nothing has happened.

[Bruno]

Good luck Andrew. Dickmans Design has voted for you.

This is a sad episode and it repeats itself with every design company out there every now and then. Lee, pay up!!!

Bruno Dickman

[Funky Bastard]

I say it's BDS fault for even trusting a worthless fuck like that. I dont know how you run your business but I know if I ran a design company I would ask for half now then half later when design is done and the people that would get the best design would be the one's that pay in full up front.

[mammy]

vote for BDS

now u can reffer to this thread
showing that gfy wants Lee to pay u

[BlueDesignStudios]

Hey look, 5 of Lee's fake nicks have voted for him.

How cute :D

Even lee won't vote for himself though

[baddog]

Lee has publicaly stated on GFY that he would pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY

He has publicly stated a few things on GFY and not followed thru . . . I don't think anything will be different this time around.

[evanmorgan]

pay up lee

[johndoebob]

As long as you don't get your money (and I have serious doubts that you'll ever get it through starting threads on GFY) or make a claim in court, it doesn't really matter what unrelated people think.

[baddog]

- by posting threads like this, you are giving Lee the opportunity to sue you for slander and defamation of character -

#1 - it would be libel, not slander
#2 - it would have to be false for either to apply

[BlueDesignStudios]

As long as you don't get your money (and I have serious doubts that you'll ever get it through starting threads on GFY) or make a claim in court, it doesn't really matter what unrelated people think.

true - but lee did say he would only pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY, hence the poll:

If you want paying for the design work i ordered from you almost 2 years ago, post a sample of the 'design' work you supposedly did for me and also make a statement that it is the same quality as work in your regular design portfolio.

Let GFY decide if the work passes the 'quality test', the ball is in your court

Post the work, if it is of a good quality, as voted for by GFY'ers you'll get paid, if it doesnt meet the quality of the other sites in your portfolio, you are shit out of luck, i have nothing to lose here, do you?

[TheLegacy]

#1 - it would be libel, not slander
#2 - it would have to be false for either to apply

fine.. simply goes to prove that no one here is a lawyer and that this is best done in the courts. Lee is not going to give two shits what is posted here or what GFY'ers say. It is not hurting his reputation amongst those he really cares about - and as I said many times before - GFY is not the center of the adult universe and there is a great deal of webmasters who never heard of it much less this problem - and those who remain assume that anything written on GFY is drama and has the street news value of a grocery store tabloid like National Enquirer. It simply is not taken seriously.

My point is only to take it to court instead since this is taking valuable time (more than 550$ of Blue's wages spent over the past years posting to this)

Sue Lee for what he owes, the time lost in collections and all legal fees... because if you think posting on GFY is going to make any difference to him? its not

[johndoebob]

true - but lee did say he would only pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY, hence the poll:

Sure, but talk is cheap, he already said he was going to pay up a few times didn't he? Those people only pay up if they're forced to.

[Pipecrew]

true - but lee did say he would only pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY, hence the poll:

Lee also said a year or two ago "if a certain thread reaches XXX ammount of replies" I will leave gfy forever.. The dude lasted like 2 months before renigging on his word..

His word = garbage.

[TheLegacy]

true - but lee did say he would only pay up based on the opinions of those on GFY, hence the poll:

You know and I know that Lee is merely playing you. Hes sitting back on his office leather chair holding 550$ in his pocket wondering, "do I visit the bathhouse tonight and find me a few twinks for 550 or give this to bluedesign" ?

It wont be until someone actually corners him at a convention / seriously starts hurting his client database or starts threads on his webmaster board that he will take notice and take whatever you say seriously. Right now - its a cat and mouse game, and hes enjoying throwing the 550 worth of cheese in front of you.

[Eric]

This is a simple answer for me. I know how Andrew and his crew work. If you are working with them they will make changes upon changes upon changes untill you finally tell them that you are happy,. Even after that you can come back within reason and ask for changes to be made and they are extremely accomodating.

Lee you are in the wrong here time to pay the piper!

[wedouglas]

bump for a good cause

[BlueDesignStudios]

Good luck Andrew. Dickmans Design has voted for you.

This is a sad episode and it repeats itself with every design company out there every now and then. Lee, pay up!!!

Bruno Dickman

Thanks for the support Bruno - non-paying clients are every designers' worst nightmare - but I think Lee really takes the cake with his list of excuses after saying the design's perfect!

[BlueDesignStudios]

vote for BDS

now u can reffer to this thread
showing that gfy wants Lee to pay u

Thanks, I have reffered lee to this thread, but it seems once again when it comes time to pay up, lee is nowhere to be seen

[alan-l]

discount one vote to Lee because I voted the wrong choice

[brand0n]

discount one vote to Lee because I voted the wrong choice

now thats funny

[webair]

good god i accidently chose lee on the poll

[webair]

now thats funny

make that 2 please

Lee = complete ASSHAT

[BlueDesignStudios]

good god i accidently chose lee on the poll

lol it's not a tricky poll you know.. that's 25% of his votes by accident

[European Lee]

http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/1/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/2/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...s/3/index.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/.../main_eng.html
http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...w_banners.html

Andrew, those samples above are shit but, i have to ask, how comes i was never shown this version before now?

http://www.bluedesignstudios.com/hp/...rs/3/main.html

You been working while all this drama has been going on or something?

Regards,

Lee