50...........

As a model who always hires professional photographers, I would be very disappointed and wouldn't shoot a second time with a photographer where all my images needed a lot of work. It is very rare when I need to crop an image, and usually when I decide to it's so that I can censor it. If most of my images needed real work (instead of superficial blending) I wouldn't consider that person a pro and I would feel ripped off. You asked for the photographers standpoint, but I thought you might also want to hear from a client's perspective. :2 cents:

(instead of superficial blending)?

Every models photos need tweaking, some more than others. A good pro level photographer will make you go WOW when you see the pictures. I have 2 pro guys that work at my studio with me and when we shoot a model we want to have the girl go WOW when she see's our pictures. We recently had a model ( ebony porn star) shoot with us, we shot some high end stills for her, she came back to us and said she paid a LA photograher $2500 to shoot her stills and ours were twice as good and alot cheaper. It all comes down to the eye of the photographer, lighting, and photoshop experience.

image please . ..

You may not have a bigger dick, but you have alot more time on your hands. Plus the client is a hell of alot happier, because they pay less for post work.

True you can always do more to any shot to improve it. The question wasn't about retouching, it was about cropping. Photo 101, how to compose and crop.( I'm just taking the piss, so don't take offense.)

Shit, i could show you some polaroids of some covers I shot that would make you pee your pants with laughter.The finished product is what your after, how you get there is more about workflow.

I have a very good friend who is a huge commercial shooter. We could both shoot the same scene and he would use 15 lights, and I would use one. Guess what, the shot would look the same. It's all in how you like to work.

It just seems to make sense to get as much information and work done in the camera, and less post work. I've seen some so called "photographers" that might as well be working with Illustrator, cuz thats what they are, Illustrators.

superficial blending = removing imperfections and/or smoothing skin



Other than any needed superficial blending, I expect my images to already be great. If the photographer doesn't frame the image properly, I view that as a major flaw. A photographer is an artist with a camera. If the photographer can't figure out how to properly frame a picture (and relies on cropping instead), he isn't really a photographer -- he is a person with a camera.

... "It takes more than a hat to call yourself a chef!" :winkwink:

roger, over and out

Exactly. Photoshop experience being one of the most important parts. As I said, Photoshop is today's darkroom. Through photographic history, miracles have been performed in the dark room. Now they're performed in Photoshop.

Part of being a good, pro photographer is knowlege of how to use photoshop to your advantage. Saying "my images just come out of the camera that way" is both childish and ignorant.

Thanks for the honest answer.

Oh, and they will be I'm sure. But not right out of the camera. See my other responses in this thread.

Camera's aren't magic. Frame something all you want in the camera and it's not gonna turn out better just 'cause Ansel Adams pressed the shutter release.

Donnie - who are you referring to here? I looked back in this thread and I didn't see anything in regards to what your referring to. What I did see were people being honest about how they approach their work. Some crop in the camera (people like me) and some crop in Photoshop!

And some crop in both. I'm sure you're not telling me that you never crop in Photoshop.

Donnie - I need to correct you on something. Being a "pro photographer" has nothing to do with knowledge of photoshop or knowledge of the darkroom. It has to do with making great imagery that people pay you for - nothing less...nothing more. I've been shooting for 15 years and over those years I've taken numerous workshops and seminars from Photographers who knew nothing about the darkroom or Photoshop. But, their imagery was still beautiful and they had clients lining up to pay them for their vision.

J. Stephen Hicks for example....knows nothing about a darkroom. He's been shooting for Penthouse for 20 something/odd years. He shoots slides, sends them to the lab for processing and then sends them directly to Penthouse. He doesn't take them into the darkroom or into photoshop. I've seen his slides - straight out of the camera with no photoshop work done to them and all I can say is this......his work "straight out of the camera" kicks MAJOR ASS!

Photoshop is nothing more than a tool - just like a lens filter, just like a light meter, just like an umbrella, just like a compact card flash reader. Knowledge of Photoshop or the darkroom has nothing to do with how good of a photographer you are. On the internet and in the adult industry - there are so many photographers (or wanna be photographers) who use Photoshop to correct the skills that they havent yet mastered when the shots were actually produced. And some photogs only use it only to "enhance" their vision to produce a final product that would have been impossible to produce only with the camera. However people decide to use photoshop - it's up to them. But being good with photoshop does not necessarily mean your a good photographer and there are plenty of good photographers who know nothing about photoshop :winkwink:

I don't recall saying that .... did I? Truth is, 99.9% of my work is cropped in the camera. I cannot recall over the last few years "ever" cropping an image - seriously. Unless it was something for a graphic that I was making (button, splash page etc).

I'm from the old school Donnie - ya' know....back when everything was shot on film and there was no Photoshop. I learned early on that cropping within the camera is important and it's part of the skills needed to be a great shooter. Just like metering for correct exposure. I'm not one of the new crop of photographers who use Photoshop to correct their compositions and their exposures because they lack the knowledge to do it when they are actually shooting the pics. Some people use photoshop to "correct" for skills that they lack...and some people use photoshop to enhance their work to make it better. I'm don't consider myself a great shooter or anything like that - but I have mastered the basics of composition and exposure so I don't have to use photoshop to correct for my lack of skills in that department.

Like I said in my first post in regards to cropping....." I'm certainly not against recropping, but I just prefer to compose them when I shoot them."

Yep, Hicks is great. And he prepares for a shoot for hours and hours. And I'm sure his photos look great right out of the camera. But I personally know that at least some of his work is retouched. How? 'Cause the photographs of one of my models who was shot by him came out different than what he had shot. In other words, there were things on her in the shot that weren't on her in final production.

Again, one's dick is not bigger by claiming their photos come right out of the camera looking magazine ready. It's not realistic at all. Sure, SOME photos may come out needing no work and looking great, but most photos need 'something' before they're ready for a client.

I guess you were making graphics/buttons etc. when I was there at "Oliver's" studio with you. I'm sorry I didn't remember that part. I thought you were just working on some of the photos you'd shot.

My bad.

Depends....stuff like war photography is some excellent stuff that comes right out of the camera...But I couldn't imagine doing photography the old way with a darkroom.

I disagree. When I pay for a shoot, I know what I expect, I research the photographer in advance, and what I end up with is images that are already great. I'll do some superficial blending because I'm a girl and girls are never satisfied (we all look better after a little airbrushing). But I am very pleased with the composition of my photos. If I were doing TFP, I wouldn't expect such quality. But when I pay for a photoshoot, I do. :2 cents:

When someone takes a negative and projects that image for a print, are you telling me you believe they never crop out part of the image? They get it perfectly lined up and print the entire negative?

I'd be willing to bet darkroom cropping was even more popular than Photoshop cropping.

I never said that Hicks work wasn't retouched - of course it is. But Hicks doesn't do the retouching himself...so, does that mean that he's not a real photographer? My point was that his images come out of the camera kicking major ass. If Penthouse decides to retouch them to "enhance" what's already there - that's fine. Believe me - they are not recropping or correcting for exposure because Hicks is not a good photographer!

And your comment about preparing for a shoot for hours and hours? What does that have to do with anything? I worked for hicks for a year - I know how he prepares for a shoot bro'. Preparing for a shoot has nothing to do with your abilities to crop in the camera.

And.... - I never said that anyones pics come out of the camera "magazine ready" Donnie. Where do you come up with this stuff? Your putting words in my mouth bro'. Actually, I'm just going to drop this subject before it get's out of hand :thumbsup

There is a lot of ignorance and/or chest thumping going on in this thread.

I dont' recall ever making graphics & buttons at Olivers - we had graphic people for that. But I can also assure you that I never cropped any of the hundreds of thousands of pictures that I shot while employed there as a shooter. I'm not saying by dick is bigger than yours - I'm just saying that when it comes to my skills....I know them better than anyone. Cropping "in-camera" is a skill and for the most part - I've mastered that skill. Not everyone has or wants to....

I'm out of this convo - have fun kids....

A minor crop adjustment isn't a big deal, and takes all of about two seconds to do.

Every photographer has a different way of doing things. What truly matters is the finished product. A photographer can have all the knowledge in the world but their end product could look like shit.

One thing that all Old School Photographer have to understand, Film is dead. There will be a very limited calling for film shots in the near future, we were even able to take very old school adult magazine company and get them to accept our digital shots . A good photographer yesterday was a very skilled person with a camera and a good eye who needed to shoot a quality photo perfectly the first time, a photographer of today is someone who can shoot good film and digital, and a photographer of tommorow will be one that looks at full digital everything. Having the skill to line up the shot properly the first time is great, but it doesnt always happen and this is where a digital photographer with alot of photshop experience will be high demand. One of my photographers is in this 50's, and he is one of the best digital photographers i have ever seen and he is a photoshop wiz (actually one of the best i have ever worked with). Having all these skills makes my job of a studio owner and content producer so much easier since i do not have to worry about sending the photos out to be retouched or having another employee doing them. Also a photographer knows his pictures best, and he is the best to retouch them

The Photographer of today needs to have strong photoshop skills, and the photographer of tommorow HAS to have strong photoshop skills or they wont survive.

Brilliant post.

I have to politely disagree with you. I guarantee you that the top 20 fashion shooters don't do their own retouching. It's just not cost effective, digital or not. Digital does NOT mean photoshop. All it is, is a new way of capturing and image. Whats that old saying, "jack of all trades and a master of none. Like I said before I shoot commercial fashion, all digital now, but there is no way that I would even suggest my photoshop skills are anywhere near that of someone who does it full time. By the way, I have mad photoshop skills too, but someone who does it full time will run circles around me.

I also have never had a client ask me if I do my own retouching. My job as a photographer is to capture the image, or create the visual. Post production might be part of that, but it is not a necessity.

Most photographers wont do their own post, and for the world of big budget shoots no one would want them to. Im just saying that it will be a neccesary part of a photographers skill set to know a good amount about photoshop in the future. I love the fact that my guys can do their own post, it makes them think harder when the do the actual shot because they know they have to spend the time making the photos the way the client or myself want them. Personally i think it makes them a much better photographer, but thats my opinion( which doesnt count for much on here since im not well known like alot of people)

I even have my video guys do all the editing so it helps them shoot better video.

editing my work has made me a better shooter . . . I look at each and every image I shoot, I watch parts of every video I shoot. however I am not a big time main stream fashion/glamor/shooter.

I shoot for web sites, and I shoot for myself on occasion . . . I have no real opinion on what other photogs must or must not do, like I have no opinion on whether you fuck men or women. each must do as suits their needs . .

...and if you have to crop an image in Photoshop it doesn't diminish you as a photographer. :)

Wonder who taught me that? :)

I wouldn't consider myself a pro, but I am far fram an amatuer. On topic,.. I prefer to do a shoot right the first time. By that I mean, I like lighting, scenes, and all of it to be as close to perfect, and minimal post production editing work as possible. So when I shoot, that is my target.

We've had a lot of photographers we've interviewed after we let go the last one. A lot of them would say something to the effect of, 'well if there are fuck ups you can just fix them in post production, or the editing room, so there are no worries'. Something to that effect. Any photographer that made such a remark we would never hire.

While it's true we have, or I can, do post production work. The goal's not to create more work for me as you fuck off. Our photographer prior could get things to the point it was 90% w/o editing for the most part. That made my job a lot easier, and faster turn around. Mainly I am referring to video, versus stills. Stills can still be a mess. :1orglaugh

:pimp

I think waiting to try and fix composition problems in Photoshop allows the photographer to be lazy....best to strive for the best shot every time, you'll find yourself improving each shot instead of fixing after the fact.

just my :2 cents:

Agreed. P.S. has become a tool for the lazy. They fire away (like it takes talent) and expect you to clean up in post production. Sorry, I would not pay for such 'photography' work. I can have the neighborhood kid shoot like that if I am going to have to clean it all up later.

:disgust

I dont get it... some of the best guys in the industry and you call their remarks ingnorant and accuse them of "chest thumping"?


I'm humbled that they will even talk to me let alone give kudos to my work. I would not have the balls to question their approuch. Oh well.

As for me, Ive never cropped, retouched or done anything in photoshop. Every shot I posted and any shot I have ever sent to a client has been. Maybe it would be a benefit for me to know how and use it as a tool as Dean suggested, but that requires time and I've just never had the time to commit to it.

No "chest thumping" here, but photography is an art form in my mind. Seeing and producing the finished product in camera is the art in my opinion. Photoshop work is an art form in my opinion also, but they two art forms are not the same, with photoshop being an optional tool for those that require it.

:2 cents:

Lot's of nice pics in this thread...

Chest thumping: I was referring to some of the people in here that imply their images don't need any work. Very few images come out of the camera looking perfect and ready to go. VERY few.

Ignorance: Some of the non-photographers have made statements that are so, well, ignorant that I don't even want to begin correcting them.

We all knew what you were referring to.

from the samples you've shown... i dont think you have ever been shot by a pro...

Perhaps she should try one of us who aren't too proud to admit finishing up in Photoshop. :)

not true... give a guy all the skill and gadgets in the world.... if he doesn't have the 'eye' or talent.. he's not a photographer.. he's just a guy with a camera. Sure he can take a pretty picture and your average person will say 'ahhh.. thats pretty' .... to an artist and a photographer.. thats shit. :2 cents:

Dude, from looking at your site, your ego should be just a tad more in control. No disrespect intended, but you are cutting people down quite a bit, and i'm not seeing the pearls of wisdom you are throwing around, on your own site.

I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about. But Aaron got some answers and then some. :1orglaugh

Perhaps that is what happens when one hangs out with GFY bully trolls.
:winkwink:

You may be an excellent photographer, but that doesn't make you any less of a dick. :321GFY




I haven't knocking anyone for using photoshop. The question was about cropping/framing, which is what I've commented on up to this point. A photographers job is to take the picture. It should come out as good as possible. Some photographers like to enhance their work using photoshop; I think this can be a great tool. It's only a problem when photoshop is used as a primary tool instead of an enhancement. While I choose to not use photographers who do the extra "finishes" themselves, I believe that photographers who offer this as an option are much more marketable. :)

im sorry u feel that way... i just say it how i see it... just being honest... if you come to florida, ill make some time and shoot you for fun and show u the difference

Like I said, you ARE an excellent photographer. Even though we don't get along, I'll admit that. You have a great eye. You've just always been a dick to me -- ever since your very first response in one of my first threads so very long ago. :(


Maybe we can remedy that in Florida! :winkwink:

You two kids get a room already :winkwink:

remedy we shall.... i dont recall being a dick to you though... last i remember we were chillin in vegas at the warm up party...

Ok understand what im saying, if you shoot digital you need to know how to use photoshop. Having a "Eye" for the shot is the difference between a guy with a camera and a photographer, but having all the skills needed shoot the right shot, then do the proper post to it is indespensible. Ill get some of our glamour stuff togther with before and after pictures to show what im trying to say. A guy with the "Eye" and experience can make a great picture, but a guys with the "Eye" and a good understanding of the Tools made for Digital photgrapher make a picture that make people go WOW (and other photographers). Im not saying be sloppy with your shots, im saying embrace all the tools at your disposal to make the pictures the best they can be.

Thats my :2 cents: and let the flaming begin

hehe.. no flaming here... just havind a nice arguement/convo...


i still have to disagree... the whole point of a photographer is to capture a momnet, a subect..etc...... and be able to show others what he sees there that others dont.... bringing photoshop into this you are now a graphics guy just adding effects to a shot... and i still prefer film over digital.. the difference between film and digital to me is... people shoot a hundred shots in digital to get a handful of nice shots... they have forgotten how important a shot is and the time needed to make that shot.... with film, you take more time, you measure and calculate and almost everyshot comes out better... youre more conservative and concentrated...

Every single Female you shoot wants to look better in their shots, and with photoshop you can do that. I agree that you need to calculate you shots, and set them up.