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-   -   Ever wondered if life's worth living? (https://gfy.com/showthread.php?t=486326)

psili 06-28-2005 08:25 PM

"Life is empty and meaningless."

If you know what that says, it's a rather rewarding and freeing phrase.

sniperwolf 06-28-2005 08:28 PM

some good points here...

Libertine 06-28-2005 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subVERSION
Punkworld, you should know by now that a man of knowledge lives by acting, not by thinking about acting, nor by thinking about what he will think when he has finished acting. A man of knowledge chooses a path with mind and follows it; then he looks and rejoices and laughs; and then he sees and knows. He knows that his life will be over altogether too soon; he knows that he, as well as everybody else, is not going anywhere; he knows, because he sees, that nothing is more important than anything else.

In other words, a man of knowledge has no honour, no dignity, no family, no name, no country, but only life to be lived, and under these circumstances his only tie to reality is his controlled folly. Thus a man of knowledge endeavours, and sweats, and puffs, and if one looks at him he is just like any ordinary man, except that the folly of his life is under control. Nothing being more important than anything else, a man of knowledge chooses any act, and acts it out as if what he does matters and makes him act as if it did, and yet he knows that it doesn't; so when he fulfills his acts he retreats in peace, and whether his acts were good or bad, or worked or didn't, is in no way part of his concern.

A man of knowledge may choose, on the other hand, to remain totally impassive and never act, and behave as if to be impassive really matters to him; he will be rightfully true at that too, because that would also be his controlled folly.

We must know first that our acts are useless and yet we must proceed as if we didn't know it.

I go on living, though, because I have my will. Because I've tempered my will throughout my life until it's neat and wholesome and now it doesn't matter to me that nothing matters.

You make some valid points, but also some that I will have to disagree with.

The main problem with what you are saying is that it assumes a gap between thinking and acting. This is indeed what Sartre's existentialism stated as well, that a man is nothing more than his actions (Mozart, after all, is the symphonies he actually made, not the ones he could have made), but that is an argument which, to me, seems invalid.
Intuitively, I would say that I am more than just my actions to myself, and what I am to myself is all that matters. But if I am more to myself than just actions, then I am in fact both actions and thought. Or, perhaps, the difference between actions and thoughts is one that can only made by an outsider about a subject, since a subject himself will always combine the two in his image of himself.
Either way, there is no reason to believe that the man of knowledge would choose to act instead of think. I, for one, would agree with Seneca, in that by scholarly pursuits one can get to know and communicate with the greatest minds in history and thus spend time in a more satisfying, fruitful way than would otherwise be the case. Obviously, studying the works of those minds requires both extensive time spent reading, as well as considerable time contemplating the thoughts put forth. I would argue that thinking, in this case, is also a form of acting, and quite likely one that the man of knowledge would prefer over a vast range of actions.

Which leads me to my next point, that it seems very doubtful to me that the man of knowledge, who realizes that objectively, nothing matters more than anything else, would choose to live his life just like any other man. The lack of an objective truth does not in any way lessen the value of subjective truth and judgement, in fact, it might even strengthen it. The man of knowledge, then, having realized that the bonds of social form and cultural expectation do not matter, would surely choose to follow his own subjective truth while ignoring traditional structures in any other consideration than purely practical ones. It would seem likely that precisely the man of knowledge would stand out from the crowd, because he alone would shape his life around what he considers important rather than what society considers important.

subVERSION 06-28-2005 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld
Pleasure would probably drive people to do things, as would ambition for fame, intellectual recognition, social interaction... You might be right, immortality might indeed lead to disaster, but we have no real way to predict what the effects would be. Nor do we have a way of preventing scientists from achieving it, for that matter. The only thing that is beyond a doubt is that the next few hundred years will be very interesting both from a technological as well as a philosophical point of view. I'm particularly looking forward to the moment when artificial intelligence surpasses human intelligence :winkwink:


If you haven't already realized we've lived those situations many times through-out history. You can easily replace a superpower AI, with those who were the highly educated or who held the majority of the power. B/c lets face it, that's all a super AI would be. Not everyone would be it and surely those behind would catch up. It's all a process of information.

Quote:

"Cogs in a greater machine greased to keep the world turning for no particular greater purpose than continued existence."
How are we not that now ? And what will be the difference between that time and this? NONE. There will always be the strong percentages of highly educated, greatly empowered(by whatever means), and those in abundance of technology. Those people will create the societal, environmental, cultural, lines to live by. You could easily says that's how we live now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld
"Pleasure would probably drive people to do things, as would ambition for fame, intellectual recognition, social interaction... You might be right, immortality might indeed lead to disaster, but we have no real way to predict what the effects would be. Nor do we have a way of preventing scientists from achieving it, for that matter."

Are those not the same things that drive us now? Have they not always driven us since the dawn of time. There are only a few set classifications of awareness we can go before we completely deconstruct. If you look at the patterns of life and how intelligence evolves then you will see that even if AI reigned supreme and we had the brave new world society you would soon realize that there would be a vast number of species at the far lower ranks in and between. NOT everything or everyone would be at that level. For that reason, we will ALWAYS exist in the same patterns. The better at patten patterning we get has nothing to do with how empty life is.

Quote:

"The only thing that is beyond a doubt is that the next few hundred years will be very interesting both from a technological as well as a philosophical point of view. I'm particularly looking forward to the moment when artificial intelligence surpasses human intelligence"
Ahhh yes, who BEFORE us hasn't said that. Didn't our great grandfathers say THAT SAME EXACT THING. Don't you realize that we are ALWAYS on the brink of the greatest technology. That we HAVE more than any generation before us, and that the next coming decades will be amazing. Yes, sure, why not? When hasn't it been.

The function of life will continue to remain the same, it will vary to left or right sometimes and we will create more and go further just to have something to contrast our existence to. The fact still remains that we will evolve, we will create, we will destroy, and all life(and non-life) will continue to do the same with full intent. I mean... how else can we know anything about ourselves until we know everything about reality.


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