2257 (again!) - grey area for non-US ? - GoFuckYourself.com

sleazybunny · 06-07-2005, 02:59 AM

Hi,
I've been following the new 2257 changes with interest. For content producers in the US it seems pretty clear cut what they must do. For content producers outside the US who sell to US "secondary producers" I start getting confused. Also for "secondary producers" who host their content in the US but are not actually based in the US, i guess the rules have to be followed too. Anything hosted outside of US does not have to comply?

Any clarifiaction much appreciated
I.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 03:07 AM

I can answer your second question

Where you host doesn't matter.

If you are a non-US citizen the laws don't apply to you, even if you host in the US. You still have a risk in the host shutting you down though, but that's their decision, not the DOJ's.

sleazybunny · 06-07-2005, 03:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

If you are a non-US citizen the laws don't apply to you, even if you host in the US. You still have a risk in the host shutting you down though, but that's their decision, not the DOJ's.

Thanks for the info.

Really? Seems odd, that it depends wether I'm a US citizen or not. I thought most laws when applied to internet issues mainly came down to where the content was hosted. So if I lived in country A, but hosted in country B, and my site was legal in A, but not B, then I could expect it to be shut down in B pretty quickly. In this situation they couldn't do that cuz I'm a citizen of country A???

So if I lived and worked in the US but retained non-US citizenship I'd be fine!!!
Crazy...
I.

DamageX · 06-07-2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianonlytease

Thanks for the info.

Really? Seems odd, that it depends wether I'm a US citizen or not. I thought most laws when applied to internet issues mainly came down to where the content was hosted. So if I lived in country A, but hosted in country B, and my site was legal in A, but not B, then I could expect it to be shut down in B pretty quickly. In this situation they couldn't do that cuz I'm a citizen of country A???

So if I lived and worked in the US but retained non-US citizenship I'd be fine!!!
Crazy...
I.

I doubt it it's that simple. I'm pretty sure that, although the DOJ might not primarily go after sites owned by foreign citizens but hosted in the US, they'd still want their hosting landscape to comply with the regulations. That being said, it would most likely take a hell of a lot of resources to do so. In other words, they might not go after non-US owned sites after all. But then again, this is mere speculation and that's as much as I'm willing to debate about this.

Diligent · 06-07-2005, 03:50 AM

Yes, this is indeed crazy shit...

2257 is clearly not shaped by people with relevant knowledge in technology or the industry...

I think they think it's a clever & covert way of "curbing the proliferation of porn" online - like the spam hitting peoples email accounts will stop with this.. lol

Fucking asskissing a large portion of voters is what this is

Matt_WildCash · 06-07-2005, 04:52 AM

I do not see them going after US hosting of foregin companies. and if they do move your shit to the EU. I personally think they care less about foregin companies and hosting and will target the people on their own soil.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 04:59 AM

The problem with going after non-US citizens with US hosting is that neither the host nor the government have the resources to fly around the world inspecting documents of foreign webmasters.

Spankys Teens · 06-07-2005, 05:53 AM

This is the first time i aint jealous of being an american....way to go europe (.) (.)

maxxxxx · 06-07-2005, 06:09 AM

Spankys Teens, but don't go to Germany. There are some of the most ridiculous laws you can imagine when it comes to adult websites.

Lee · 06-07-2005, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

The problem with going after non-US citizens with US hosting is that neither the host nor the government have the resources to fly around the world inspecting documents of foreign webmasters.

Nor the necessary legal right to do so.

the real magoo · 06-07-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

The problem with going after non-US citizens with US hosting is that neither the host nor the government have the resources to fly around the world inspecting documents of foreign webmasters.

They don´t have to.
They just tell the hosting company to shut down your site.

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

The problem with going after non-US citizens with US hosting is that neither the host nor the government have the resources to fly around the world inspecting documents of foreign webmasters.

They don't have to go anywhere. If the DOJ goes to a website hosted in the US by a non-US citizen and that site doesn't even have a 2257 page on it then they are in non-compliance. The DOJ can in fact order that the site be shut down.

Quote:

If you are a non-US citizen the laws don't apply to you, even if you host in the US. You still have a risk in the host shutting you down though, but that's their decision, not the DOJ's.

So do you want to risk having your site shut down and losing everything and having to start over from scratch? Seems if you are a non-US webmaster and you wish not to comply you'd better be looking for non-US hosting solutions NOW.

MaDalton · 06-07-2005, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxxxx

Spankys Teens, but don't go to Germany. There are some of the most ridiculous laws you can imagine when it comes to adult websites.

haha, true. if you think 2257 is evil then imagine your surfers go to the post office and sign a verfication paper that they are above 18 to receive an USB dongle to access porn sites.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

So do you want to risk having your site shut down and losing everything and having to start over from scratch? Seems if you are a non-US webmaster and you wish not to comply you'd better be looking for non-US hosting solutions NOW.

Isn't this crusade getting a bit tired by now?

They can't inspect your records to verify whether they are filed correctly, filed incorrectly or don't exist at all.

I'll say it again.. US LAWS DO NOT APPLY TO NON-US WEBMASTERS.

Switching hosts isn't the end of the world. How is it 'starting from scratch'?

Non-US webmasters have an advantage, learn to live with the fact please.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the real magoo

They don´t have to.
They just tell the hosting company to shut down your site.

For what reasons?

the real magoo · 06-07-2005, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

For what reasons?

American companies have to comply with american laws

Diligent · 06-07-2005, 06:39 AM

I'm in Europe but that doesn't mean I don't give a fuck about these things...

First of all I'm not enough of an asshole to think "suits them, they voted for morons"..
and secondly, this is unjustly regulation of businesses & morality... Yep, 2257 is outright immoral!

Personally though, I'm hosted both in the US & Europe so if I forget to be compliant with a US-hosted site I'm just switching it over to Europe.

So yes... most outside the US have a few more choices.

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

Isn't this crusade getting a bit tired by now?

They can't inspect your records to verify whether they are filed correctly, filed incorrectly or don't exist at all.

I'll say it again.. US LAWS DO NOT APPLY TO NON-US WEBMASTERS.

Switching hosts isn't the end of the world. How is it 'starting from scratch'?

Non-US webmasters have an advantage, learn to live with the fact please.

WTF is your deal? There is no crusade. Try READING my post and a litel less hating. Maybe you don't understand how my government works. If YOUR site is hosted in the US and they want is shut down FOR ANY REASON, they can do it. Do you think the US government CARES whether or not you "have" to comply? If your site gets shut down WTF are you going to do about it SUE the US?

directfiesta · 06-07-2005, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

Isn't this crusade getting a bit tired by now?

.

GatorB is to 2257 what Lou Dobbs is to illegals :

OBSESSED!

directfiesta · 06-07-2005, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Just-Anotha-Mack

I'm in Europe but that doesn't mean I don't give a fuck about these things...

First of all I'm not enough of an asshole to think "suits them, they voted for morons"..
and secondly, this is unjustly regulation of businesses & morality... Yep, 2257 is outright immoral!

Personally though, I'm hosted both in the US & Europe so if I forget to be compliant with a US-hosted site I'm just switching it over to Europe.

So yes... most outside the US have a few more choices.

BINGO !!! one that is prepared. I did that 2-3 motns ago...

If I loose the US mirror, not long to set one up in Canada with rvsync .

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directfiesta

GatorB is to 2257 what Lou Dobbs in to illegals :

OBSESSED!

Get over your crap and actually READ what I wrote in repsonse the the post I quoted. Let me try again .

You are a non-US person hosting IN the US. Now because you don't "have" to comply you don't bother put a 2257 page on your site. After all WHY would you if 2257 doesn't have anything to do with you? Now the DOJ sees your site they SEE that you don't have the 2257 link on your site. That to them is a violation. REPEAT not to ME but to THEM, the DOJ. the DOJ doesn't give a fuck what YOU think. Now they find out the host of YOUR site is based in the US. They go to the host and say "Shut this site down they are violating 2257". Host says "But they aren't American" DOJ says "We don't give a fuck if you don't shut it down we'll shut you down". Now WTF do you think your US host is going to do? This whole law is about getting rid of porn. If they can get a site shut down they will doesn't matter who owns it.

If you think the same country that invaded Iraq with ZERO proof of WMDs can't shut your US hosted site down then you are very stupid.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the real magoo

American companies have to comply with american laws

They can't check if they are in violation of those laws if they can't inspect the records.

exportyourbiz-com · 06-07-2005, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Now because you don't "have" to comply you don't bother put a 2257 page on your site. After all WHY would you if 2257 doesn't have anything to do with you? Now the DOJ sees your site they SEE that you don't have the 2257 link on your site.

The simple solution is to have the 2257 link on your site, they can't inspect the records there anyways.

You have been told this time and time again.

FilthyRob · 06-07-2005, 07:07 AM

damn I hate this 2257 stuff

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

The simple solution is to have the 2257 link on your site, they can't inspect the records there anyways.

Since you are 100% sure you don't have to comply exactly which % of non-US webmasters will bother to do this. That is my point. There are going to be SOME % of non-US webmasters that are hosted in the US that will do NOTHING. These are the people that are at risk for getting shut down and to whom I have been refering about this whole thread.

Quote:

You have been told this time and time again.

Listen dude I don't know what your issue is, but your hatred of me is totally blinding you to my point. Get over it. I'm TRYING to be nice. YOU try now.

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by exportyourbiz-com

They can't check if they are in violation of those laws if they can't inspect the records.

Not having a 2257 page is a violation in of itself. If they see you are not a US citizen and you hosting is not in the US and you domain is not through a US registrar no they aren't going to bother with you most likely. It doesn't mean that in THEIR eyes you aren't inviolation. Which has been my whole point since I first ever commented on 2257 which you Euros have been reaming out over. THEIR point of view, not MINE, but THIERS.

directfiesta · 06-07-2005, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Get over your crap and actually READ what I wrote in repsonse the the post I quoted. Let me try again .

.

I just said you were " obsessed" that's all ... and sounded like Lou Dobbs ( every evening, one after the other : illegal immigrants ... )

I agree with not being " safe " if you host in the US . I even think that processing is also an issue : Look at my post and my sig...

And relax ... It is a shakedown

mikeyddddd · 06-07-2005, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

If you think the same country that invaded Iraq with ZERO proof of WMDs can't shut your US hosted site down then you are very stupid.

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by directfiesta

I just said you were " obsessed" that's all ... and sounded like Lou Dobbs ( every evening, one after the other : illegal immigrants ... )

I happen to agre with him on that.

Quote:

I agree with not being " safe " if you host in the US . I even think that processing is also an issue : Look at my post and my sig...

And relax ... It is a shakedown

Hard to relax when I have 30 people calling me idiot for no good reason because they fail to actually take the time to UNDERSTAND my POV. No offense but Euros have coniptions when they think some American is trying to tell them what to do. Which I wasn't. And all logic and reasoning and appearantly civility go out the window.

the real magoo · 06-07-2005, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

If you think the same country that invaded Iraq with ZERO proof of WMDs can't shut your US hosted site down then you are very stupid.

ROFL

sleazybunny · 06-07-2005, 07:48 AM

..well thanks for some feedback and enlightenment. What I suspected is what has arisen here, and I've also seen test cases in US and Europe on libel/slander where the host has been forced to remove the site etc, even though they aren't breaking the law, get's into the messy area of who is publishing what. So where do "secondary" producers fit in?
Eg: I host a TGP in the US, I have a 2257 statement on the site, am I still expected to get the ID off of each of the providers of content for the TGP?? that's a lof of ID each day!!! How can they really enforce that, content changes so often? One day I could have all the content on the TGP that is illegal by 2257 and the next day I may have all the ID's???

any clarification would be interesting
Thanks..
I.

BRISK · 06-07-2005, 07:49 AM

Summary:

Having non-US hosting is probably safer than US hosting

Having a 2257 page (even if you don't keep any records) that says the info is at [insert non-US address here], is probably safer than not having a 2257 page at all, because US authorities can't search a non-US address to see if the documentation is being kept.

Having a lawyer advise you is probably better than reading GFY

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianonlytease

..well thanks for some feedback and enlightenment. What I suspected is what has arisen here, and I've also seen test cases in US and Europe on libel/slander where the host has been forced to remove the site etc, even though they aren't breaking the law, get's into the messy area of who is publishing what. So where do "secondary" producers fit in?
Eg: I host a TGP in the US, I have a 2257 statement on the site, am I still expected to get the ID off of each of the providers of content for the TGP?? that's a lof of ID each day!!! How can they really enforce that, content changes so often? One day I could have all the content on the TGP that is illegal by 2257 and the next day I may have all the ID's???

any clarification would be interesting
Thanks..
I.

If you have a TEXT based TGP and you don't have any sexually explicit content on your site then you don't need 2257 statement. If you linking to someone elses gallery that has sexually explicit content on it. It's THEIR obligation to have the 2257 info.

GatorB · 06-07-2005, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRISK

Summary:
Having a 2257 page (even if you don't keep any records) that says the info is at [insert non-US address here], is probably safer than not having a 2257 page at all, because US authorities can't search a non-US address to see if the documentation is being kept.

Which would take all of 5 minutes to do, but how many will even bother?

BRISK · 06-07-2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Which would take all of 5 minutes to do, but how many will even bother?

I agree, not many people will. Which is amazing considering how simple it would be to put up a dummy 2257 page.

just a punk · 06-07-2005, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianonlytease

Hi,
I've been following the new 2257 changes with interest. For content producers in the US it seems pretty clear cut what they must do. For content producers outside the US who sell to US "secondary producers" I start getting confused. Also for "secondary producers" who host their content in the US but are not actually based in the US, i guess the rules have to be followed too. Anything hosted outside of US does not have to comply?

Any clarifiaction much appreciated
I.

If your company is not based in the USA, and your hosting is also locared outside that country - YOU DON'T HAVE to comply 2257. This is a GREAT time from EU hosting companies (see sig

)

missnat · 06-07-2005, 08:16 AM

yes this is crazy, but I dont own any "teen" sites and I live in europe, so it doesnt disturb me, only disturbs my buisness with paranoid webmasters

BRISK · 06-07-2005, 08:21 AM

There is a difference between not complying with 2257 and not having a 2257 page/link on your websites.

Think about it.

NTSS · 06-07-2005, 08:24 AM

Remember the fight has just begun

loverboy · 06-07-2005, 08:33 AM

this is just the start of 2257, expect more to come

wjxxx · 06-07-2005, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

If you think the same country that invaded Iraq with ZERO proof of WMDs can't shut your US hosted site down then you are very stupid.

hahahahaha
You are

06-07-2005, 02:59 AM	#1
sleazybunny Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: uk Posts: 239	2257 (again!) - grey area for non-US ? Hi, I've been following the new 2257 changes with interest. For content producers in the US it seems pretty clear cut what they must do. For content producers outside the US who sell to US "secondary producers" I start getting confused. Also for "secondary producers" who host their content in the US but are not actually based in the US, i guess the rules have to be followed too. Anything hosted outside of US does not have to comply? Any clarifiaction much appreciated I.

06-07-2005, 03:50 AM	#5
Diligent Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hoy Suecia, mañana Nirvana Posts: 1,594	Yes, this is indeed crazy shit... 2257 is clearly not shaped by people with relevant knowledge in technology or the industry... I think they think it's a clever & covert way of "curbing the proliferation of porn" online - like the spam hitting peoples email accounts will stop with this.. lol Fucking asskissing a large portion of voters is what this is __________________ ~¤~ MORE MONEY ~¤~ VOD? XoD! ~¤~ ~¤~ ICQ# 9828 2461 ~¤~

06-07-2005, 05:53 AM	#8
Spankys Teens Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Location: The Porn Land Posts: 1,414	This is the first time i aint jealous of being an american....way to go europe (.) (.) __________________ Banners - Design - TGP & more Trade: Teenies In Action icq: 256664696

06-07-2005, 06:09 AM	#9
maxxxxx Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 646	Spankys Teens, but don't go to Germany. There are some of the most ridiculous laws you can imagine when it comes to adult websites. __________________ **Teen Harbour** - Home of Little Caprice ------------------------------------------------------------------- In a perfect world... spammers would get caught, go to jail, and share a cell with many men who have enlarged their penisses, taken Viagra and are looking for a new relationship.

06-07-2005, 06:39 AM	#17
Diligent Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Hoy Suecia, mañana Nirvana Posts: 1,594	I'm in Europe but that doesn't mean I don't give a fuck about these things... First of all I'm not enough of an asshole to think "suits them, they voted for morons".. and secondly, this is unjustly regulation of businesses & morality... Yep, 2257 is outright immoral! Personally though, I'm hosted both in the US & Europe so if I forget to be compliant with a US-hosted site I'm just switching it over to Europe. So yes... most outside the US have a few more choices. __________________ ~¤~ MORE MONEY ~¤~ VOD? XoD! ~¤~ ~¤~ ICQ# 9828 2461 ~¤~

06-07-2005, 03:07 AM	#2
exportyourbiz-com Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 141	I can answer your second question Where you host doesn't matter. If you are a non-US citizen the laws don't apply to you, even if you host in the US. You still have a risk in the host shutting you down though, but that's their decision, not the DOJ's.

06-07-2005, 04:52 AM	#6
Matt_WildCash Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 1,699	I do not see them going after US hosting of foregin companies. and if they do move your shit to the EU. I personally think they care less about foregin companies and hosting and will target the people on their own soil.

06-07-2005, 04:59 AM	#7
exportyourbiz-com Confirmed User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 141	The problem with going after non-US citizens with US hosting is that neither the host nor the government have the resources to fly around the world inspecting documents of foreign webmasters.

06-07-2005, 07:07 AM	#24
FilthyRob Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Anaheim - CA Posts: 6,741	damn I hate this 2257 stuff __________________ AKA - Clubsexy

06-07-2005, 07:48 AM	#31
sleazybunny Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: uk Posts: 239	..back to some info.. ..well thanks for some feedback and enlightenment. What I suspected is what has arisen here, and I've also seen test cases in US and Europe on libel/slander where the host has been forced to remove the site etc, even though they aren't breaking the law, get's into the messy area of who is publishing what. So where do "secondary" producers fit in? Eg: I host a TGP in the US, I have a 2257 statement on the site, am I still expected to get the ID off of each of the providers of content for the TGP?? that's a lof of ID each day!!! How can they really enforce that, content changes so often? One day I could have all the content on the TGP that is illegal by 2257 and the next day I may have all the ID's??? any clarification would be interesting Thanks.. I.

06-07-2005, 07:49 AM	#32
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	Summary: Having non-US hosting is probably safer than US hosting Having a 2257 page (even if you don't keep any records) that says the info is at [insert non-US address here], is probably safer than not having a 2257 page at all, because US authorities can't search a non-US address to see if the documentation is being kept. Having a lawyer advise you is probably better than reading GFY __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

06-07-2005, 08:16 AM	#37
missnat Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 127	yes this is crazy, but I dont own any "teen" sites and I live in europe, so it doesnt disturb me, only disturbs my buisness with paranoid webmasters __________________ WE BUILD YOUR NICHE TGP!! 1 SPOT OPEN! ICQ 211286670 TRANNY WEBMASTERS, trades, traffic, spots, galleries, TGP building SHEMALE DOME NEW PARTNERSHIP PROGRAM!! New Fresh HOSTED GALLERIES

06-07-2005, 08:21 AM	#38
BRISK Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 12,240	There is a difference between not complying with 2257 and not having a 2257 page/link on your websites. Think about it. __________________ I post on GFY so that when people ask me what I do, I can tell them that I work with the mentally retarded.

06-07-2005, 08:24 AM	#39
NTSS Confirmed User Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Da Hood Posts: 5,688	Remember the fight has just begun __________________ ICQ: 150-803-430 Email: marketing7(at)cox(dot)net

06-07-2005, 08:33 AM	#40
loverboy When it rains, it pours Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 20,609	this is just the start of 2257, expect more to come