Great Howard Zinn article about Nationalism for fans of A People's History. - GoFuckYourself.com

Rich · 05-30-2005, 01:05 PM

http://www.progressive.org/june05/zinn0605.php

He's bang on about nationalism if you ask me.

In my eyes Zinn is one of the great writers and historians of our time. If you haven't read A People's History of the United States, you're really missing out, it's something everyone should read.

FunForOne · 05-30-2005, 01:21 PM

Dont you have a boxing match today?

tony286 · 05-30-2005, 01:31 PM

very good article

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:23 PM

Here's the book for anyone who hasn't read it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...926147-1100119

funforone, since this isn't a coloring book, that link is probably not for you.

Libertine · 05-30-2005, 02:25 PM

Howard Zinn writes biased crap.

FunForOne · 05-30-2005, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Here's the book for anyone who hasn't read it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...926147-1100119

funforone, since this isn't a coloring book, that link is probably not for you.

Sore from the karate lesson?

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:28 PM

Howard Zinn has written the best history of the United States to date. Maybe your mind is too clogged up with biased crap?

BradM · 05-30-2005, 02:28 PM

Good article, but he's missing the point.

Libertine · 05-30-2005, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Howard Zinn has written the best history of the United States to date. Maybe your mind is too clogged up with biased crap?

Not really. I tend to read regardless of political affiliation, and judge arguments by their merit. Unfortunately, Howard Zinn writes biased crap.

I bet you think Noam Chomsky's great too, huh?

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradM

Good article, but he's missing the point.

What point?

BradM · 05-30-2005, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

What point?

He seems to think that people give a fuck about what happened 110 years ago to a bunch of Fillipinos.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:43 PM

Noam Chomsky is also a great author. What's wrong with telling the truth about US foreign policy? I realize inside the US this is called bias, in the rest of the world it's called logic. Chomsky and Zinn are obviously progressives, that doesn't mean that what they're saying is wrong. If you don't read Chomsky chances are you don't know less about world issues than someone who does.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradM

He seems to think that people give a fuck about what happened 110 years ago to a bunch of Fillipinos.

A lot of people do. Not everyone is conditioned to disregard history as irrelevant.

Veterans Day · 05-30-2005, 02:45 PM

another thread were rich focuses his time and energy at the us.

Leave your witty comment below:

Big Red Machine · 05-30-2005, 02:45 PM

Just imagine in 50 yrs when theres a war over clean drinking water.
Thats where we are heading.

David! · 05-30-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Noam Chomsky is also a great author. What's wrong with telling the truth about US foreign policy? I realize inside the US this is called bias, in the rest of the world it's called logic. Chomsky and Zinn are obviously progressives, that doesn't mean that what they're saying is wrong. If you don't read Chomsky chances are you don't know less about world issues than someone who does.

Your heroes are my terrorists and vice versa.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

As our armies were committing massacres in the Philippines (at least 600,000 Filipinos died in a few years of conflict), Elihu Root, our Secretary of War, was saying: "The American soldier is different from all other soldiers of all other countries since the war began. He is the advance guard of liberty and justice, of law and order, and of peace and happiness."

Sound familiar?

A real understand of history is the first step to understanding the present.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PussyMan

Your heroes are my terrorists and vice versa.

That's true I'm sure, but how can someone who documents what other people and governments are doing be a terrorist?

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Red Machine

Just imagine in 50 yrs when theres a war over clean drinking water.
Thats where we are heading.

If we make it that long.

BradM · 05-30-2005, 02:55 PM

I'm not interested in the past. If one dude says that people with turbans are bad - that's good enough for me.

Libertine · 05-30-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Noam Chomsky is also a great author. What's wrong with telling the truth about US foreign policy? I realize inside the US this is called bias, in the rest of the world it's called logic. Chomsky and Zinn are obviously progressives, that doesn't mean that what they're saying is wrong. If you don't read Chomsky chances are you don't know less about world issues than someone who does.

You make the unforgivable mistake of believing that if something fits your worldview, it must be the truth. The exact same mistake that conservatives, extremist muslims and christians, communists and radical socialists, laissez-faire capitalists and anarchists all make.

People like you read Zinn, Chomsky, Hertz, Barber, Klein, but never things that go against your worldview. And if, by chance, you do read something that goes against what you believe, the principle of charity will be the last thing on your mind.

The best way to find the truth is to use as many sources as possible, and weigh them all against eachother. If you do that, it's plain that authors like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky use only that information which suits their agenda - they ignore everything which doesn't suit their rhetorical needs.

You know how 12clicks ignores every argument that could go against his position? You do exactly the same thing.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Sound familiar?

understand

ing

fucking mondays

Repetitive Monkey · 05-30-2005, 03:00 PM

"Great"? "Truth"? He's writing page up and page down about his opinions.

In my own opinion protectionism and love towards one's immediate or extended group is perfectly natural and valid. In any case it has good fundations in the genetic makeup itself, so the extension of the group and family instincts to cover your nation has more merit certainly than ideologically fostered postulations about everyone having the exact same "value" (as if that is relevant to the issue), and consequent rights to place their feet and do whatever they want wherever they want.

I agree with you though that nationalism has LEAD TO some unfortunate incidents at various points in time, and that USA compassionates are often taking their nationalism and forming it into an ideology where they are some kind of chosen people that have the right to do whatever they wish to other peoples.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld

You make the unforgivable mistake of believing that if something fits your worldview, it must be the truth. The exact same mistake that conservatives, extremist muslims and christians, communists and radical socialists, laissez-faire capitalists and anarchists all make.

People like you read Zinn, Chomsky, Hertz, Barber, Klein, but never things that go against your worldview. And if, by chance, you do read something that goes against what you believe, the principle of charity will be the last thing on your mind.

The best way to find the truth is to use as many sources as possible, and weigh them all against eachother. If you do that, it's plain that authors like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky use only that information which suits their agenda - they ignore everything which doesn't suit their rhetorical needs.

You know how 12clicks ignores every argument that could go against his position? You do exactly the same thing.

You're wrong about me, I read as much as I possibly can. I don't ignore any arguments. I look up and verify facts from Chomsky and Zinn books just as much as I do with anything else. I'll read anything you suggest to me. I don't take on these people's ideologies, but there are a lot of things I agree with them about. Obviously I am a progressive who is against imperialist war and a supporter of human rights, I certainly share that with both of these two authors. That doesn't mean I just mindlessly follow whatever they have to say, I don't. Chomsky is one of the best and only sources for finding the UN resolutions that are doubled vetoed by the US, for example.

For once I would like you or someone else to explain what's wrong about what they're saying instead if just complaining that they have a political ideology. Everyone does. So, you're not going to listen to what progressive intellectuals have to say? That's just what you accused me of being guilty of.

What is it that they're saying that you disagree with? What is their agenda, what are they twisting around to fit their argument, and what is your take on the actual situation? I'm more than willing to listen.

Rich · 05-30-2005, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Repetitive Monkey

"Great"? "Truth"? He's writing page up and page down about his opinions.

In my own opinion protectionism and love towards one's immediate or extended group is perfectly natural and valid. In any case it has good fundations in the genetic makeup itself, so the extension of the group and family instincts to cover your nation has more merit certainly than ideologically fostered postulations about everyone having the exact same "value" (as if that is relevant to the issue), and consequent rights to place their feet and do whatever they want wherever they want.

I agree with you though that nationalism has LEAD TO some unfortunate incidents at various points in time, and that USA compassionates are often taking their nationalism and forming it into an ideology where they are some kind of chosen people that have the right to do whatever they wish to other peoples.

I agree with you that it is natural, and you're right, it has led to some unfortunate incidents... that's wording it nicely. The natural sense of nationalism gets exploited very easily, as in Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and present day North Korea and United States. When nationalism starts to take priority over free speech and open debate, it's a problem.

Repetitive Monkey · 05-30-2005, 03:20 PM

Rich, one more thing. Wouldn't a family locking their house at night (or day for that matter) and only letting guests in after they've knocked and introduced themselves be comparable to a nation only letting in people who have first spoken to border agents who have judged them to not be of detriment to the nation?

Libertine · 05-30-2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

You're wrong about me, I read as much as I possibly can. I don't ignore any arguments. I look up and verify facts from Chomsky and Zinn books just as much as I do with anything else. I'll read anything you suggest to me. I don't take on these people's ideologies, but there are a lot of things I agree with them about. Obviously I am a progressive who is against imperialist war and a supporter of human rights, I certainly share that with both of these two authors. That doesn't mean I just mindlessly follow whatever they have to say, I don't. Chomsky is one of the best and only sources for finding the UN resolutions that are doubled vetoed by the US, for example.

For once I would like you or someone else to explain what's wrong about what they're saying instead if just complaining that they have a political ideology. Everyone does. So, you're not going to listen to what progressive intellectuals have to say? That's just what you accused me of being guilty of.

What is it that they're saying that you disagree with? What is their agenda, what are they twisting around to fit their argument, and what is your take on the actual situation? I'm more than willing to listen.

I don't really believe you read as much as you possibly can. If you did, you wouldn't be into Zinn and Chomsky. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

I'm not guilty of what I'm accusing you of... I actually have half a dozen books by Chomsky, and apart from his stuff on language and - to a lesser extent - Manufacturing Consent, it's all empty rhetoric.

I'm drunk at the moment, so I won't be able to give a very strong argumentation, but I'll try to explain why it's crap by referring to that article you posted a link to.

The article you posted does several separate things and tries to pass them off as one and the same. It gives a number of examples of atrocities by groups, it talks about nationalism and it refers to contemporary politics.
What if I were to write an article where I combined the atrocities of the French Revolution with those of stalinism, the inefficiency of social democracy and today's left-wing politicians. That would make just as little sense as this article.

Strong logical connections are needed when one makes an argument, and authors like Zinn and Chomsky fail to give them for the most part, relying instead on emotional association and slippery slope fallacies. Aside from that, they also fail to take into account the harsh nature of reality.

theking · 05-30-2005, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld

Not really. I tend to read regardless of political affiliation, and judge arguments by their merit. Unfortunately, Howard Zinn writes biased crap.

I bet you think Noam Chomsky's great too, huh?

I think you would win the bet hands down.

theking · 05-30-2005, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Howard Zinn has written the best history of the United States to date. Maybe your mind is too clogged up with biased crap?

You saying it does not make it true...now does it...Richy boy. I say he writes history with a POV...an agenda.

theking · 05-30-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

Noam Chomsky is also a great author. What's wrong with telling the truth about US foreign policy? I realize inside the US this is called bias, in the rest of the world it's called logic. Chomsky and Zinn are obviously progressives, that doesn't mean that what they're saying is wrong. If you don't read Chomsky chances are you don't know less about world issues than someone who does.

..."telling the truth"...from their POV's and agenda. There is more than one "truth"...eh Richy boy.

theking · 05-30-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld

You make the unforgivable mistake of believing that if something fits your worldview, it must be the truth. The exact same mistake that conservatives, extremist muslims and christians, communists and radical socialists, laissez-faire capitalists and anarchists all make.

People like you read Zinn, Chomsky, Hertz, Barber, Klein, but never things that go against your worldview. And if, by chance, you do read something that goes against what you believe, the principle of charity will be the last thing on your mind.

The best way to find the truth is to use as many sources as possible, and weigh them all against eachother. If you do that, it's plain that authors like Howard Zinn and Noam Chomsky use only that information which suits their agenda - they ignore everything which doesn't suit their rhetorical needs.

You know how 12clicks ignores every argument that could go against his position? You do exactly the same thing.

Valid points indeed.

theking · 05-30-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by punkworld

I don't really believe you read as much as you possibly can. If you did, you wouldn't be into Zinn and Chomsky. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.

I'm not guilty of what I'm accusing you of... I actually have half a dozen books by Chomsky, and apart from his stuff on language and - to a lesser extent - Manufacturing Consent, it's all empty rhetoric.

I'm drunk at the moment, so I won't be able to give a very strong argumentation, but I'll try to explain why it's crap by referring to that article you posted a link to.

The article you posted does several separate things and tries to pass them off as one and the same. It gives a number of examples of atrocities by groups, it talks about nationalism and it refers to contemporary politics.
What if I were to write an article where I combined the atrocities of the French Revolution with those of stalinism, the inefficiency of social democracy and today's left-wing politicians. That would make just as little sense as this article.

Strong logical connections are needed when one makes an argument, and authors like Zinn and Chomsky fail to give them for the most part, relying instead on emotional association and slippery slope fallacies. Aside from that, they also fail to take into account the harsh nature of reality.

Once again...all valid points.

DaddyHalbucks · 05-30-2005, 05:44 PM

Illegal immigrants are one of the vampires sucking the life out of our country.

Zinn does a disservice by mindlessly supporting people who break the rules.

Illegal immigrants are criminals. They have no right to cross into our country.

theking · 05-30-2005, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyHalbucks

Illegal immigrants are one of the vampires sucking the life out of our country.

Zinn does a disservice by mindlessly supporting people who break the rules.

Illegal immigrants are criminals. They have no right to cross into our country.

Zinn and Chomsky are just two more assholes...with an opinion...and are of no import in the scheme of things.

BRISK · 05-30-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theking

Zinn and Chomsky are just two more assholes...with an opinion...and are of no import in the scheme of things.

Whether you agree with their opinions or not, their opinions are much much more powerful and important than yours, simply because people actually listen to them. They have the ability to influence others towards their way of thinking.

Just because you don't like what they're saying, doesn't mean it isn't important. I don't like Ann Coulter, but I'll admit that her opinions are important simply because people listen to her and follow her. Hitler's opinions were important, not because I agree with them, but because people were influenced by them and followed him.

wjxxx · 05-30-2005, 06:24 PM

Zinn an Chomsky are both commies and should be hanged

reynold · 05-30-2005, 06:52 PM

I love American History...

$5 submissions · 05-30-2005, 08:13 PM

I've read a People's History... He tends to lean to heavily on an externalist explanation for history. Externalist (class, economics, hegemony, etc) pressures do exist, sure... but CULTURE and RELIGION (or use of religion for political means) are powerful factors as well.

theking · 05-30-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BRISK

Whether you agree with their opinions or not, their opinions are much much more powerful and important than yours, simply because people actually listen to them. They have the ability to influence others towards their way of thinking.

Just because you don't like what they're saying, doesn't mean it isn't important. I don't like Ann Coulter, but I'll admit that her opinions are important simply because people listen to her and follow her. Hitler's opinions were important, not because I agree with them, but because people were influenced by them and followed him.

I believe in their case...fan...would be more applicable than follower...though both words have similar meanings.

TheJimmy · 05-30-2005, 10:53 PM

ok, fuck is this Introduction to International Relations 101 all over?

so whos' buying the GLOOMY MALTHUS THEORY?

dammit, I thought these discussions were over already?

come on people, let's get back to more important rants like 2257 and I'd hit it shit...

.

Mr.Fiction · 05-30-2005, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wjxxx

Zinn an Chomsky are both commies and should be hanged

Anyone who questions the government at all is helping the terrorists!

Bush should be made king and Christianity is the only true religion!

Liberals are helping the terrorists by reading books!

Snake Doctor · 05-30-2005, 11:08 PM

I've been meaning to read that book. It's on my "to read" list....along with alot of other stuff I need to read.

TheJimmy · 05-30-2005, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr.Fiction

Bush should be made king and Christianity is the only true religion!
...

sounds very familiar to what you'd hear from radical wahabi sunni muslims that I spent some time with overseas :/

scarey, but we have become our enemy in some ways, seriously...

.

05-30-2005, 01:05 PM	#1
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	Great Howard Zinn article about Nationalism for fans of A People's History. http://www.progressive.org/june05/zinn0605.php He's bang on about nationalism if you ask me. In my eyes Zinn is one of the great writers and historians of our time. If you haven't read A People's History of the United States, you're really missing out, it's something everyone should read. Last edited by Rich; 05-30-2005 at 01:06 PM..

05-30-2005, 02:25 PM	#5
Libertine sex dwarf Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 17,860	Howard Zinn writes biased crap. __________________ /(bb\|[^b]{2})/

05-30-2005, 02:45 PM	#14
Veterans Day Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: The Windy City Posts: 8,403	another thread were rich focuses his time and energy at the us. Leave your witty comment below: __________________ Build a Massive Traffic Network, Hands FREE, Totally Automated

05-30-2005, 02:45 PM	#15
Big Red Machine Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: XXXBigRed@Twitter Posts: 9,586	Just imagine in 50 yrs when theres a war over clean drinking water. Thats where we are heading. __________________ ICQ:475437214

05-30-2005, 05:44 PM	#33
DaddyHalbucks A freakin' legend! Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Las Vegas, Nevada USA Posts: 18,975	Illegal immigrants are one of the vampires sucking the life out of our country. Zinn does a disservice by mindlessly supporting people who break the rules. Illegal immigrants are criminals. They have no right to cross into our country. __________________ Boner Money

05-30-2005, 01:21 PM	#2
FunForOne Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: USA Posts: 8,704	Dont you have a boxing match today?

05-30-2005, 01:31 PM	#3
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	very good article

05-30-2005, 02:23 PM	#4
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	Here's the book for anyone who hasn't read it: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...926147-1100119 funforone, since this isn't a coloring book, that link is probably not for you.

05-30-2005, 02:28 PM	#7
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	Howard Zinn has written the best history of the United States to date. Maybe your mind is too clogged up with biased crap?

05-30-2005, 02:28 PM	#8
BradM Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 1123,6536,5231 Posts: 3,397	Good article, but he's missing the point.

05-30-2005, 02:43 PM	#12
Rich So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 11,486	Noam Chomsky is also a great author. What's wrong with telling the truth about US foreign policy? I realize inside the US this is called bias, in the rest of the world it's called logic. Chomsky and Zinn are obviously progressives, that doesn't mean that what they're saying is wrong. If you don't read Chomsky chances are you don't know less about world issues than someone who does.

05-30-2005, 02:55 PM	#20
BradM Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: 1123,6536,5231 Posts: 3,397	I'm not interested in the past. If one dude says that people with turbans are bad - that's good enough for me.

05-30-2005, 03:00 PM	#23
Repetitive Monkey Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,505	"Great"? "Truth"? He's writing page up and page down about his opinions. In my own opinion protectionism and love towards one's immediate or extended group is perfectly natural and valid. In any case it has good fundations in the genetic makeup itself, so the extension of the group and family instincts to cover your nation has more merit certainly than ideologically fostered postulations about everyone having the exact same "value" (as if that is relevant to the issue), and consequent rights to place their feet and do whatever they want wherever they want. I agree with you though that nationalism has LEAD TO some unfortunate incidents at various points in time, and that USA compassionates are often taking their nationalism and forming it into an ideology where they are some kind of chosen people that have the right to do whatever they wish to other peoples.

05-30-2005, 03:20 PM	#26
Repetitive Monkey Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,505	Rich, one more thing. Wouldn't a family locking their house at night (or day for that matter) and only letting guests in after they've knocked and introduced themselves be comparable to a nation only letting in people who have first spoken to border agents who have judged them to not be of detriment to the nation?

05-30-2005, 06:24 PM	#36
wjxxx So Fucking Banned Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,448	Zinn an Chomsky are both commies and should be hanged

05-30-2005, 06:52 PM	#37
reynold Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Global Traveler Posts: 51,271	I love American History...

05-30-2005, 08:13 PM	#38
$5 submissions I help you SUCCEED Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Pearl of the Orient Seas Posts: 32,195	I've read a People's History... He tends to lean to heavily on an externalist explanation for history. Externalist (class, economics, hegemony, etc) pressures do exist, sure... but CULTURE and RELIGION (or use of religion for political means) are powerful factors as well. __________________ Need a NON-ADULT income stream? We build your YOUTUBE CHANNEL for only $20 per video! For Hire: $3/hour or $400 per month Marketing Specialist Virtual Assistants

05-30-2005, 10:53 PM	#40
TheJimmy ICQ- five seven 0 2 5 5 0 Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 10,747	ok, fuck is this Introduction to International Relations 101 all over? so whos' buying the GLOOMY MALTHUS THEORY? dammit, I thought these discussions were over already? come on people, let's get back to more important rants like 2257 and I'd hit it shit... . __________________ Investor with 5m - 15m USD to invest. Do you have a site or network of sites earning 50k - 200k a month income? Email your contact and preliminary data to: domain.cashventures (at) gmail.com....Please...no tire kickers...serious offers and inquiries only.

05-30-2005, 11:08 PM	#42
Snake Doctor I'm Lenny2 Bitch Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: On top of my soapbox Posts: 13,449	I've been meaning to read that book. It's on my "to read" list....along with alot of other stuff I need to read. __________________ sig too big