The underlying reality of the 2257 amendment

[Fuckin Bill]

Everyone's been argueing so much about what they do or don't have to do and who's included in what...I think a lot of people, even lawyers, missed something very important about what this law actually does, and a key way it gets law enforcement around the constitution to make prosecutions.

The US has a history of making back-doors to get around things when they can't make prosecutions head-on for what they want. They couldn't outlaw a plant (Marijuana) so they created a tax document requirement, and then refused to issue the tax documents, making posession illegal. They haven't been able to make the successful prosecutions they want against the porn industry, so they've created a backdoor to get in and prosecute the people in the industry for something else, making it easier to shut down more businesses that they can't get because of freedom of speech and expression.

With the new broader definitions in 2257, they give themselves the right to search private homes, whenever they see fit, without a search warrant. Many webmasters run their business from their homes. They can seize or take whatever they want if they see it in the course of their "inspections" even though their stated purpose is to look for these documents. This is something no search warrant would ever allow. A law enforcement agent can only enter a stated place to search for exactly what he says he is looking for, anything else he might find is not admissable in court if it's not noted in the search warrant.

They can come to your home whenever they like, and if they see anything in your home that remotely suggests some kind of crime, they can take it and use it as evidence to prosecute you for another crime.

Have you thought about what might be on your computer? What happens when they come looking through your system for documents and slip into another directory or see a screen with something they think might be obscene? (regardless of whether or not it really is) They can walk out with your entire system and put you out of business.

Had a party with your buddies the night before they showed up? Some dipshit you hang out with left a roach in an ashtray you didn't see? Kids spilled some baby powder on the floor and you didn't clean it...Does that look like cocaine?

It's not the new rules you need to worry about...It's what they can do once they're in your home you should be afraid of.

[Fuckin Bill]

Here's the portion of the amendment I'm referring to, if anyone didn't get that far down the pages..

(g) Seizure of evidence. Notwithstanding any provision of this part
or any other regulation, a law enforcement officer may seize any
evidence of the commission of any felony while conducting an
inspection

[nikad]

Now, despite the record keeping stuff and burocratic shit this is putting on webmasters, this subtle and apparently insignificant thing is damn scary!!!
I think something should be done about it, unfortunately webmasters and the adult industry have no representation or significant organizations
Guys, wether you work from home or from your office and your stuff is 110% 2257 compliant you can get fucked, I am not an alarmist, but I never heard of any industry, individual or company that can be enforced to open its doors to any law enforcement organism with an excuse -2257- and actually get caught for something else!
At least not in any democratic country.
Nik

[StuartD]

Have I mentioned how much I love living in Canada?

[nikad]

Originally Posted by NichePay - StuartD

Have I mentioned how much I love living in Canada?

Everyday, I love my country more and more too

[Lycanthrope]

That's pretty standard verbage for any crime. If a house gets raided for drugs and the people inside aren't selling drugs but instead have a little illegal casino running, they will take the roulette wheel.

[Snake Doctor]

There's nothing that says you have to let them into your house.

Rent an office and keep the records there, now that office is the only place they're allowed to look.

[StuartD]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

There's nothing that says you have to let them into your house.

Rent an office and keep the records there, now that office is the only place they're allowed to look.

Yes, because the average part time gallery submitted who does a full time job as well can fully afford to rent an office just to put records in.

[Fuckin Bill]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

There's nothing that says you have to let them into your house.

Rent an office and keep the records there, now that office is the only place they're allowed to look.

That's true. But for a lot of people in the industry that's not an option. If you're making enough to afford a seperate place of business, that's certainly something you should look into. But many people don't want, or simply can't, rent another location just to make sure they can keep these guys out of their homes.

[nikad]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

There's nothing that says you have to let them into your house.

Rent an office and keep the records there, now that office is the only place they're allowed to look.

I don't think the vast majority of adult webmasters work from an office....
nik

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

That's pretty standard verbage for any crime. If a house gets raided for drugs and the people inside aren't selling drugs but instead have a little illegal casino running, they will take the roulette wheel.

As a today example :

Firefighters Discover Child Porn; Teacher Charged
Authorities Seize Four Computers, DVDs, Magazines


FERNDALE, Md. -- Firefighters found a large amount of suspected child pornography while battling a fire in Ferndale on Wednesday and the homeowner has been charged with possession of the material.

http://www.thewbalchannel.com/news/4532240/detail.html

But if you are in the US and run your business from home, it is not the best situation... You are jeopardizing your house ...

Maybe time to get a small office ... Oh shit, records will have to be there, and available ... Catch22

[Steve]

yup - nobody wants the DOJ banging on the door

[Fuckin Bill]

DF, that's not the same thing. Firefighters aren't bound by the same regulations as law enforcement.

Edit: They also didn't seize anything. They saw it, and reported it to police. It's not the same thing as a search and/or search warrant situation.

[nikad]

Originally Posted by directfiesta

As a today example :



But if you are in the US and run your business from home, it is not the best situation... You are jeopardizing your house ...

Maybe time to get a small office ... Oh shit, records will have to be there, and available ... Catch22

The firefighters had to break in there since it was an emergency situation, if the police wanted to inspect what was going on there, they should have had a warrant.
nik

[Snake Doctor]

Well this is a business just like any other, if you can't afford the costs of doing business then that's nobody else's fault.

Maybe you guys should try out that Don Lapre stuff, he said he made millions from his tiny one bedroom apartment.

[Fuckin Bill]

Well Lenny, working from home or an office, just think about some of the images that might be on your computer. If they have access to that and can use it against you, you can bet they will find something.

The only truly safe thing would be a little locked room with paper filing cabinets (A mile high and wide in the case of a thumbnail site) with absolutely nothing else in the room, and nothing between the cabinets and the front door for them to see.

[RockDaddy]

They definately have found a way around those pesky "probable cause" and "search warrant" requirements in the fourth admendment.

[directfiesta]

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

DF, that's not the same thing. Firefighters aren't bound by the same regulations as law enforcement.

Edit: They also didn't seize anything. They saw it, and reported it to police. It's not the same thing as a search and/or search warrant situation.

Agreed. But just to show how vulnerable you can be .

And that guy was a scholl teacher ... 2257 my ass.

[kernelpanic]

Well said, these new 2257 regs are nothing but trouble, and will not help in preventing CP any. Its just another way to hassle adult webmasters, because Bush and the DOJ don't like the adult industry at all.

[nikad]

I guess if they find anything that could be considered obscene - illegal - wether it is something from a sponsor or content you bought ... , they could take your computer/s as evidence, you'll get it back in 6 months or so...
See you can still be 2257 compliant and get in deep shit.
nik

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

Well Lenny, working from home or an office, just think about some of the images that might be on your computer. If they have access to that and can use it against you, you can bet they will find something.

The only truly safe thing would be a little locked room with paper filing cabinets (A mile high and wide in the case of a thumbnail site) with absolutely nothing else in the room, and nothing between the cabinets and the front door for them to see.

Computers are cheap....buy an old one and keep all the records on there

I agree the regs are fucked but let's tone down the conspiracy theories a bit

[tony286]

actually the feds come in and inspect other types of business all the time. I have a friend who has a mortgage business he always has to have his shit together for a inspection .so do pharma companies, brokerage houses. Whats happening is the adult has been like deadwood anything went, now its going to have to act more like a real business much more responsible.It sucks and is a fucked up reg but I bet if you talk to other industry with regs they probably canbitch all day. THe big problem is we dont have a true voice ,there is the fsc but I never see them on the news shows or getting invited to the adult seminars in wash dc.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

Have you thought about what might be on your computer? What happens when they come looking through your system for documents and slip into another directory...

If you actually read the statute, they specifically address this issue and list protecting the privacy of your other documents / file folders etc. as the reason why your 2257 docs must be kept seperate from all others.

Most of the panic over these enhanced regs is being spread by folks who have not read - or understood - the changes to the law.

[Fuckin Bill]

I've been thinking a LOT lately about just that. I would like to form some sort of organization that can represent the industry as a whole in legal and lawmaking issues. Not some free speech thing, and not some "alliance of webmasters". Something more like what the NRA does for the gun industry.

We need a group that knows the laws, can do lobbying, and argue in front of congress. And a group that does only that. Not people who are webmasters trying to help out on the side. A real organization.

When "they" write laws about guns, you know the first thing they think about is what the NRA is going to bring up, or how many lobbyists and protestors are going to show up in front of congress. We need a real and legitimate representative body that will make them think the same things when they write something about us.

Edit: that was in reference to Tony's post above. Forgot to quote it.

[Fuckin Bill]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

Computers are cheap....buy an old one and keep all the records on there

I agree the regs are fucked but let's tone down the conspiracy theories a bit

My problem with attitudes like that is that you're basically saying, "You can comply like this..just do this and forget about it."

That's how shit like this gets on the books and stays there. The point is that we shouldn't have to go through this stuff. There are things in that law and the ammendment that break rules of the constitution when they are applied the way they are trying to apply them. We have every right, and even an obligation to stand up and knock it down. Once a presedent is set, and the courts can say "Well that's the way it has been...so it's fine..." There's no going back, and it only gets worse.

[Veterans Day]

did I mention, text converts better than anything, and its 2257 delete? Records? Huh? What is this 22 thing everyone is speaking about

[chadglni]

Originally Posted by Veterans Day

did I mention, text converts better than anything, and its 2257 delete? Records? Huh? What is this 22 thing everyone is speaking about

Non nude teaser pics do the same too. But good luck getting that through anyones head.

[Veterans Day]

Originally Posted by chadglni

Non nude teaser pics do the same too. But good luck getting that through anyones head.

thats all i do, non-nude and text

[Fuckin Bill]

The unity and of this industry is just staggering. It's like that old quote... Sit back and watch, let them take everyone else away and believe they aren't coming for you. Then see who's around to help when they do come for you.

[Snake Doctor]

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

My problem with attitudes like that is that you're basically saying, "You can comply like this..just do this and forget about it."

That's how shit like this gets on the books and stays there. The point is that we shouldn't have to go through this stuff. There are things in that law and the ammendment that break rules of the constitution when they are applied the way they are trying to apply them. We have every right, and even an obligation to stand up and knock it down. Once a presedent is set, and the courts can say "Well that's the way it has been...so it's fine..." There's no going back, and it only gets worse.

I'm all for fighting it in court....but in the meantime don't you think it's prudent to say "you can comply like this"???

Fighting the law in court is one thing but bitching about it and not complying because you don't like it is just stupid.

[Fuckin Bill]

I never said don't comply. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't the only one seeing what this could open up and allow the "inspectors" to do. A lot of people are worried about the work involved, but I hadn't seen anyone talking about the possibility of new dangers. People definitely need to be aware of it.

[DWB]

Canada... oh Canada...

[escorpio]

Originally Posted by Veterans Day

did I mention, text converts better than anything, and its 2257 delete? Records? Huh? What is this 22 thing everyone is speaking about

hearing you, bro

[BlingDaddy]

Originally Posted by DirtyWhiteBoy

Canada... oh Canada...

And for your US webasters? And customers? All the people you work with are in OH CANADA?

I had a sponsor tell me today they didn't need to give me 2257 because they "were'nt" in the US.... As of June 23rd their shit is history as far as my traffic is concerened.

[RockDaddy]

Non nude teaser pics do the same too. But good luck getting that through anyones head.

So, how do you know that they still won't come to your home and inspect to make sure that it's not from a hardcore set? How will you stop them? They won't need probable cause or a warrant.

[Adam-EB]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

There's nothing that says you have to let them into your house.

Rent an office and keep the records there, now that office is the only place they're allowed to look.

But, you must post your operating hours, and be there if and when they show up, or you're in violation.

[XxXotic]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

Computers are cheap....buy an old one and keep all the records on there

I agree the regs are fucked but let's tone down the conspiracy theories a bit

that's a good idea... aside from the fact they'd just take both computers instead of one. They won't give a shit if you tell them the records are on one and not another, they're not taking your word for it, they're just taking both

[Webby]

The underlying reality of the 2257 amendment

The underlying reality of the 2257 amendment is that this is an act designed for the protection of children and in fact, does nada towards the protection of children.

Also.. there are existing laws already in place to protect children and enforcement of these laws is utterly pathetic.

Overall... it show little more than the gross hypocracy of lawmakers who claim to be leading a "nation under God"... more total bullshit.

[Paul Markham]

This law is going to have a devestating effect on the US industry.

Firtly the 90% of affilaites that send 10% of traffic will not be able to comply with the address thing. The vast number of people who run a small site are in the same position. They are part timers and low earners who will probably turn away from the business or ignore the law and wait it out.

Then there are models. Some sponsors are talking about handing out documents to affilaites. Check in the license where that's allowed. You will find many of them allow you to give out content but few allow you to give out documents, it might say that or "Revealing the models real name"

And let's say for a few months it does happen, or people ignore the license. How long before the shit hits the fan and it becomes widely known that any clown who asks can get a girls ID from a sponsor?

Then expect models and models agents to start saying model releases have to specify NO INTERNET PUBLICATION. It will become very hard to find models who are prepared to let their personal IDs be distributed like candy.

The EU has privacy laws, so forget about EU content, in Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria and many more countries supplying porn to the Net it's illegal to produce porn. So forget about those countries allowing you to give away models IDs.

There will be a few content providers who will allow documents to be given out. They will be bottom of the barrel, low quality, low production and becasue of the supply/demand rules high prices. Not going to do a lot for your traffic is it?

[erehwon]

Originally Posted by charly

This law is going to have a devestating effect on the US industry.

Firtly the 90% of affilaites that send 10% of traffic will not be able to comply with the address thing. The vast number of people who run a small site are in the same position. They are part timers and low earners who will probably turn away from the business or ignore the law and wait it out.

Just wait until the Republicans discover one of the only things keeping the lights on at most datacenters is adult internet sites.

I really doubt they really thought out the cause and effect of 2257.

[TheDoc]

It?s always easy to dwell on the worst possible outcome.

The 2257 regulations is pretty easy to comply with. If you are running a business from your office, house or car, it should be run with a set of guidelines, one including no drugs. Many different businesses have gov forced regulations and inspections.

When they happen to visit my office / house, they will get direct access to the filing cabinet and the computer with the records. Anything above that, they will need a warrant.

If you are stupid enough to have drugs laying around in open view, then you deserve to be busted for stupidity.

The Obscenity cases that have been going on, point towards the worst of porn. Beast, porn snuff films, rape films, etc. They haven?t attacked a straight up hardcore online company yet for a reason.. They would lose.

Fact is, it?s not my job to police your kids online and an adult buying my adult products to view in private is always going to be hard to beat in court. No mater how hardcore the content is.

[iwantchixx]

Originally Posted by Lycanthrope

That's pretty standard verbage for any crime. If a house gets raided for drugs and the people inside aren't selling drugs but instead have a little illegal casino running, they will take the roulette wheel.

BINGO


12345678chars

[Webby]

Originally Posted by charly

This law is going to have a devestating effect on the US industry.

Then there are models. Some sponsors are talking about handing out documents to affilaites. Check in the license where that's allowed. You will find many of them allow you to give out content but few allow you to give out documents, it might say that or "Revealing the models real name"

Could not agree more charly! There is no way in hell I'd be giving a model's data out and seriously doubt the majority of models would agree to this. The implications have clearly not been given much thought - in fact it looks like they were on drugs when this law was passed.

There is a level where sanity becomes insanity and the effects on the US industry from hosting down to content is not a pretty one. The financial effects are likely to be substantial - odd when ya consider the current economic state.

OK.. WTF is the point of a 40 year old "MILF" with big tits being asked to prove her age?? Only in the US. I can visualize the response from some law enforcement officers in other countries who work with "porn" - they'd burst out laughing.

This law is real healthy for the protection of children - namely, no hope. They are too busy fussing about bits of paper than reality.

[xxxjay]

Originally Posted by Fuckin Bill

I've been thinking a LOT lately about just that. I would like to form some sort of organization that can represent the industry as a whole in legal and lawmaking issues. Not some free speech thing, and not some "alliance of webmasters". Something more like what the NRA does for the gun industry.

We need a group that knows the laws, can do lobbying, and argue in front of congress. And a group that does only that. Not people who are webmasters trying to help out on the side. A real organization.

When "they" write laws about guns, you know the first thing they think about is what the NRA is going to bring up, or how many lobbyists and protestors are going to show up in front of congress. We need a real and legitimate representative body that will make them think the same things when they write something about us.

Edit: that was in reference to Tony's post above. Forgot to quote it.

There is no point in re-inventing the wheel...we've already got one and they've got a good head start...see my sig! FSC!