Why do you think we are still so low on the porn rankings for porn?

[Paul Markham]

Size of the industry $57.0 billion world-wide - US $12.0 billion

Adult videos $20 billion

Escort services $11 billion

Magazines $7.5 billion

Sex clubs $5 billion

Phone sex $4.5 billion

Cable/Pay per view $2.5 billion

Internet $2.5 billion

CD-Rom $1.5 billion

Novelties $1.0 billion

Other $1.5 billion

From Pornography Industry Revenue Statistics

Everyone crows about how this is the place to be in porn but the statistics show a different story. Even magazines that everyone says are finished take 3 times more than the Net.

Seems people still buy porn, so why don't more buy on the Net?

[Dirty F]

My eyes :/

[sonofsam]

thats brutal on the eyes

[Rorschach]

must be your kick ass colour coordination skills

[bringer]

must be your kick ass colour coordination skills

[BRISK]

Everyone crows about how this is the place to be in porn

Where are you hearing this?

[Paul Markham]

Where are you hearing this?

On GFY a lot, especially about magazines.

[BRISK]

On GFY a lot, especially about magazines.

I haven't seen many people say that the online porn industry is much better than the offline alternatives, don't you think you're exagerating by saying "everyone"? If anything, it's mostly you having the same discussion with the same 5-6 people all the time.

Besides, don't you think this place is biased? GFY is a community of people who make their money from online porn, should you be surprised that these same people think that online porn is the place to be?

Also, how many people on GFY have enough experience in this industry to knowlegeably discuss the differences between the online and offline side of this industry? I'd bet the vast majority of GFY members have never worked in the offline side at all, so their opinion would likely be completely one sided anyway.

[ADL Colin]

Does anyone doubt that more people VIEW porn on the net than anywhere else? Most aren't paying for it because it is readily available for free.

Anyway, what does the size of an industry have to do with how good of a business it is?

Penthouse circulation dropped from 1 million to less than 600,000 in 5 years.
Screw magazine sales dropped 80%. Both filed Chapter 11. Playboy circulation dropped by 50,000. Hustler's subscriptions dropped from 1.5 million to 30,400 from 1989 to 1999. Is that the business to be in just because it is higher revenue? When I look at those numbers it completely disinterests me.

For most people, the answer to this being the "place to be" is cost-of-entry; both financial and knowledge-wise.

[Paul Markham]

Good points Brisk, maybe "everyone' was me going over the top a bit. But those figures were very sobering to me.

Shows we as an industry have a long way to go and there is a lot more money in porn than what we are getting.

[Nicky]

the problem is all the free porn available to the surfers

[Paul Markham]

the problem is all the free porn available to the surfers

So we ended up with all the free loaders and the rest ended up with the money?

I can see how easy it is to saturate a set with so little choice for the surfer.

Information provided by Internet Porn Statistics showed there are about 4.2 million pornographic websites constituting 12 per cent of the total websites. The pornographic pages constitute 372 million hits and daily pornographic search engine requests 68 million or 25 per cent of the total search engine requests.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...ow?msid=203421

[abyss_al]

My eyes :/

12345678

[sweetcuties]

There's other ways to market your shit without the net... think out the box. The web is just one aspect

[ADL Colin]

So we ended up with all the free loaders and the rest ended up with the money?

Since when is revenue more important than profit? The numbers one needs to really make a cross-comparison are not readily available.

How do you clearly define the "place to be"?

[Violetta]

Because We Are Giving It All Away For Freeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!

[slapass]

Size of the industry $57.0 billion world-wide - US $12.0 billion

Adult videos $20 billion

Escort services $11 billion

Magazines $7.5 billion

Sex clubs $5 billion

Phone sex $4.5 billion

Cable/Pay per view $2.5 billion

Internet $2.5 billion

CD-Rom $1.5 billion

Novelties $1.0 billion

Other $1.5 billion

From Pornography Industry Revenue Statistics

Everyone crows about how this is the place to be in porn but the statistics show a different story. Even magazines that everyone says are finished take 3 times more than the Net.

Seems people still buy porn, so why don't more buy on the Net?

Maybe it is because our number gets bigger every year and some of those get smaller every year? Growth is in the internet.

[Paul Markham]

One of the reasons could be what we as an industry deleiver compared to the other sections.

Look at the situation with Perfect Gonzo, most people are creaming themselves about the content and how well it must be converting. But when I talk to people about shooting it, or any other better quality product, they quote me what some guy in LA or Moscow will shoot it for.

When I ask them why are they not getting them to shoot it they say they have not got the girls, the skills or the equipment. But they still think I should shoot for the same price.

This is an examples of how SOME buy content, big sites buying exclusive for $150 a set. It's crap but it's exclusive and $150 a set. They complain they can't pay any more, probably because the crap they have is not converting or retaining well enough.

[Zester]

One of the reasons could be what we as an industry deleiver compared to the other sections.

Look at the situation with Perfect Gonzo, most people are creaming themselves about the content and how well it must be converting. But when I talk to people about shooting it, or any other better quality product, they quote me what some guy in LA or Moscow will shoot it for.

When I ask them why are they not getting them to shoot it they say they have not got the girls, the skills or the equipment. But they still think I should shoot for the same price.

This is an examples of how SOME buy content, big sites buying exclusive for $150 a set. It's crap but it's exclusive and $150 a set. They complain they can't pay any more, probably because the crap they have is not converting or retaining well enough.

what he said

[jayeff]

Someone posted these stats here from another site (XBiz if I recall) a couple of weeks ago and I noted at the time that according to them, online porn has captured only 5% of the total porn market. Taken at face value, I thought that was a very low figure given that it is almost 10 years since online porn moved off BBS etc onto the "mainstream" Internet.

Online porn suffers several practical limitations. Although the 'Net itself has a global reach, payment processors have closed off a lot of the potential markets to "normal" business. Even for surfers with broadband access (which less than 50% have), the 'Net has a long way to go before it is an ideal medium for viewing anything but static content.

Then there is the relationship between online porn and its potential customers. We ourselves talk as if porn is viewed mainly so that the surfer can "rub one out". If we have got it right, is it surprising that relatively few people are willing to pay $20, $40 or more every month for it to fill that very limited role. Only magazines are similarly limited in what they can do to sustain a sexual fantasy and each $5-$10 issue reaches on average 5+ readers. Clubs, cable, video, all offer social possibilities that online porn cannot. Clubs, escorts and (some) 'phone services offer interactivity which online porn cannot approach. Accessibility without embarassment is one of the few clear advantages we have to offer.

And inevitably you also have to look at our own practises. By 2000, supply and demand were closely enough balanced that if we had followed the pattern of other developing markets, we should have begun adopting a longer term view towards our customers. Instead, the vast majority of sites still promote an over-priced, under-specified product and use all kinds of "unfriendly" sales techniques to maximize their income.

Our problem is that a lot of Internet traffic is controlled by people who do nothing but control traffic. Whether we are talking about the relatively small number of people who control lots of traffic or the thousands who control small amounts but are significant in total, a site operator who wants a large customer base (quickly), has to compete directly for traffic by being willing to pay the market rate for it. It is irrelevant whether he pays a search engine, a traffic broker, affiliates, or some combination or even if he runs his own traffic gathering operation: that reality translates into costs which provide customers with nothing except high subscription rates and all the tricks that they hate.

A few dozen sites have proved that it is possible to be customer oriented yet still be successful on a large scale, but that approach needs patience which most don't have and except for sites which are already well-established, it is arguably irrelevant these days to all but one-man operations with modest ambitions or those who have low-cost offline channels for promoting their online product.

I'm doubtful how much free porn has to answer for. It's something which is easy to blame, but it is a very cheap and effective way to attract traffic and although I'm sure it does cost us some sales, I doubt it ultimately deters many who are interested enough in porn to pay for it month after month. I'm sure that the overall cost of less certain ways to generate traffic would be higher, not least because they would concentrate traffic into fewer hands.

I don't see the traffic-cost situation and the issues associated with it changing much, since they are consequences of the nature of the Internet. For online porn to really come into its own, we need technology that will allow us to deliver a product with broader entertainment appeal and that better justifies our prices: faster downloads of high quality movies and live (interactive) content. And ideally we need that content to be easily viewable on regular TVs rather than restricting most surfers to their PCs.

[hydro]

Someone posted these stats here from another site (XBiz if I recall) a couple of weeks ago and I noted at the time that according to them, online porn has captured only 5% of the total porn market. Taken at face value, I thought that was a very low figure given that it is almost 10 years since online porn moved off BBS etc onto the "mainstream" Internet.

Online porn suffers several practical limitations. Although the 'Net itself has a global reach, payment processors have closed off a lot of the potential markets to "normal" business. Even for surfers with broadband access (which less than 50% have), the 'Net has a long way to go before it is an ideal medium for viewing anything but static content.

Then there is the relationship between online porn and its potential customers. We ourselves talk as if porn is viewed mainly so that the surfer can "rub one out". If we have got it right, is it surprising that relatively few people are willing to pay $20, $40 or more every month for it to fill that very limited role. Only magazines are similarly limited in what they can do to sustain a sexual fantasy and each $5-$10 issue reaches on average 5+ readers. Clubs, cable, video, all offer social possibilities that online porn cannot. Clubs, escorts and (some) 'phone services offer interactivity which online porn cannot approach. Accessibility without embarassment is one of the few clear advantages we have to offer.

And inevitably you also have to look at our own practises. By 2000, supply and demand were closely enough balanced that if we had followed the pattern of other developing markets, we should have begun adopting a longer term view towards our customers. Instead, the vast majority of sites still promote an over-priced, under-specified product and use all kinds of "unfriendly" sales techniques to maximize their income.

Our problem is that a lot of Internet traffic is controlled by people who do nothing but control traffic. Whether we are talking about the relatively small number of people who control lots of traffic or the thousands who control small amounts but are significant in total, a site operator who wants a large customer base (quickly), has to compete directly for traffic by being willing to pay the market rate for it. It is irrelevant whether he pays a search engine, a traffic broker, affiliates, or some combination or even if he runs his own traffic gathering operation: that reality translates into costs which provide customers with nothing except high subscription rates and all the tricks that they hate.

A few dozen sites have proved that it is possible to be customer oriented yet still be successful on a large scale, but that approach needs patience which most don't have and except for sites which are already well-established, it is arguably irrelevant these days to all but one-man operations with modest ambitions or those who have low-cost offline channels for promoting their online product.

I'm doubtful how much free porn has to answer for. It's something which is easy to blame, but it is a very cheap and effective way to attract traffic and although I'm sure it does cost us some sales, I doubt it ultimately deters many who are interested enough in porn to pay for it month after month. I'm sure that the overall cost of less certain ways to generate traffic would be higher, not least because they would concentrate traffic into fewer hands.

I don't see the traffic-cost situation and the issues associated with it changing much, since they are consequences of the nature of the Internet. For online porn to really come into its own, we need technology that will allow us to deliver a product with broader entertainment appeal and that better justifies our prices: faster downloads of high quality movies and live (interactive) content. And ideally we need that content to be easily viewable on regular TVs rather than restricting most surfers to their PCs.

Great post but I think free porn is more of a problem than its thought to be. Being able to download porn for free is pretty much an internet standard as much as e-mail or downloading music. Some people could easily get off to just seeing teen kelly in tight pants and a short shirt, they won't need to pay $30 every month for something that only lasts a few minutes when they are seeing what they want already. Something that might be hurting us from people who would buy porn on a regular basis is shitty members areas. I remember the first porn site i joined claimed to have so much and had a really nice tour but as soon as i paid and got access all it really was is a tgp with what looked like hosted galleries. Oh well enough bitchin though, as long as im making a profit i'll still be here

[Paul Markham]

Great post Jayeff and though I do not entirely agree with averything, can you imagine me ever agreeing to anything LOL) you make a lot of good points.

The one about the traffic is very significant and we will be looking in the future to driving our own traffic as the back bone of our paysite traffic machine. Not going 100% down that line but we will have our own guys.

I still think the problem is the over all satisfaction level of buying a magazine, video or membership. The ease of buying membership on the Net is countered by all the crap you have to deal with before you get membership to a good site.

But the quality of what a video or magazine delivers is far more satisfying than what most paysites deliver. But the future is good and the figures show there is a lot more money to be made out of porn than we do currently.

The professional pornographers are coming in, they have the experience and product to put a lot ot shame. More and more surfers are experienced at buying memberships and they know a crap site when they get inside, no matter how much mud you throw at the wall some of it has to stick.

you talk about whether the surfer will pay $30 to "Rub one out" Well the magazine and video industry is built around selling to the same people time after time, so why are we lucky to have a member stay 3 months?

Quality of product, service and updates. Those who get that right will survive, those who do not will suffer.

[sumphatpimp]

get a fucking clue people.
you can rent a dvd or video tape for 2 bucks, and watch it on your big screen tv. no hassles no horse shit.

with internet porn you have to battle viruses. adware/spyware and all the rest of the crap that lives online. and they want a credit card number with can be traced and an email which will be spammed. they want 40 bucks for a month membeship. 40 bucks is a hell of alot more than 2 and who knows what will happen to that cc number? I don't know you! who says I want to jerk off ALL month? and most of all, I only get to watch the movie on a pc screen. fuck that!

the internet is not the great delivery system that you thought it was.

[Fred Quimby]

good insight jayeff

[Basic_man]

It's not everyone who is trusting websites and gives away their credit card !

[khs]

some very good points and alot of good reads, I'll keep an eye on this thread

[Jace]

it costs me almost nothing to create a page and make $10,000 from that page in a year

how much does it cost to create a magazine and make $10,000 from it?

the profit margins are totally different, one costs nearly nothing to produce, while the other costs a bundle

i would like to see those statistics with the cost of production involved also

sorry if someone above me said this also, i didn't feel like reading

[Manowar]

must be your kick ass colour coordination skills

[Jace]

one thing I will STILL never understand is why ALL these sites with all this exclusive content aren't also distributing their exclusive shit on a worldwide level on dvd...there are some, but not many....and god damn, that is some serious EXTRA cash...you already have the scenes shot, why not milk them for everything?

[Screaming]

heh cause people like all kinds of it, alot of people who like porn do most of the list and home movies are the most popular because they are the easiest to get and hide

[Paul Markham]

it costs me almost nothing to create a page and make $10,000 from that page in a year

how much does it cost to create a magazine and make $10,000 from it?

the profit margins are totally different, one costs nearly nothing to produce, while the other costs a bundle

i would like to see those statistics with the cost of production involved also

sorry if someone above me said this also, i didn't feel like reading

These days are long gone.

one thing I will STILL never understand is why ALL these sites with all this exclusive content aren't also distributing their exclusive shit on a worldwide level on dvd...there are some, but not many....and god damn, that is some serious EXTRA cash...you already have the scenes shot, why not milk them for everything?

Because very few video companies would dream of taking them on. It costs money to duplicate, box and distribute. Do you really think the video companies are going to do that with 90% of what is on the Internet?

[Cains]

Size of the industry $57.0 billion world-wide - US $12.0 billion

Adult videos $20 billion

Escort services $11 billion

Magazines $7.5 billion

Sex clubs $5 billion

Phone sex $4.5 billion

Cable/Pay per view $2.5 billion

Internet $2.5 billion

CD-Rom $1.5 billion

Novelties $1.0 billion

Other $1.5 billion

From Pornography Industry Revenue Statistics

Everyone crows about how this is the place to be in porn but the statistics show a different story. Even magazines that everyone says are finished take 3 times more than the Net.

Seems people still buy porn, so why don't more buy on the Net?

Internet is the easiest sector to get into, supposedly. It's also a growing market.

The problem we all have is all the above have become saturated, good quality product is still recognised but there is so much cheap shit hustling for that $5 that internet porn has become harder to get into. This is the place to be in porn, mainly because of the distribution model. If you can produce good quality content, then someone else can get you traffic and you can both make alot of money. But if you can't do either, you'll need alot of luck to find a home in the industry.

[eroswebmaster]

Does anyone doubt that more people VIEW porn on the net than anywhere else? Most aren't paying for it because it is readily available for free.

.

Bingo. I have never paid for porn except only when reviewing sites I considered promoting.

[Jace]

These days are long gone.



Because very few video companies would dream of taking them on. It costs money to duplicate, box and distribute. Do you really think the video companies are going to do that with 90% of what is on the Internet?

i am not talking about Vivid or some big company taking them on...i am talking about making the product themselves (it is super cheap to make) and finding a distributor to send it out...that is what we did with our product, and it worked just fine...tons of movies on the shelves, but we own the web rights to it

[Jace]

These days are long gone.

what days are long gone? i wasn't referring to any days, i was wanting to see statistics between profit margins

I know my buddy in LA shoots a movie and it costs him approx $15-20k per movie with everything included...

I shoot the same 6 scenes and throw them up on the web, do all the design myself, the editing, etc....

it costed me 1/5 as much to do what he did, and his video will be off the shelves in less than a year, but my content will continue to make money for as long as I leave it on the web...