50 Canucks debating sepertism and the rural communities.

I have no problem per se with the rest of your post, but don't minimize the role of Canada in WWII. Fact is our boys needed no draft to raise what basically overnight grew into the 4th or 5th largest army in the world at the time, going from something like 25,000 soldiers in 1939 to over 500,000 by 1944. Our shores saw no real military threat simply because we along with several other countries' armies went over there and kicked ass to prevent that from happening, at the cost of many thousands of lives I might add.

Just wanted to clear that up. Carry on...

Regardless of the purported 'rate of growth' (which is an entirely meaningless statistic, as canada would have around 5x the economy of a separated quebec and a stable economy, unlike a proto-country which will have dramatic changes in currency and economy viability in its formative years), you're wrong about GDP.

According to the 2001 Census, Quebec has around 7.125mil people, which is about 24% of canada's population. Yet, according to charts of GDP breakdown per province, the Quebec economy only represents 21% of Canada's GDP. Quebec, in short, is underperforming relative to the Canadian average, and is a net drain of Canadian resources (all sources taken from official statscan pages... click the links and become enlightened.)

Don't count on it. Remember, Canada gives you more money than you give canada. Everything in there belongs in part to all of us. I suspect France would probably help finance you... for a little while, at least, as much as they can.

The last number I saw for the national debt is around CDN$575bil. If you got a portion of your debt equal to your population, that'd be around $138bil. If you got a portion equal to your GDP, that'd be $121bil. A helluva start, in either case the equivalent to in the realm of 50% of your current GDP, which is unlikely to remain at that level given the upheaval that would undoubtably occur.

To the contrary, if you look at real numbers instead of drawing your ideas from highly partisan sources, you'll see it's a seriously BAD idea.

Additionally, do you honestly think that the pro-federalist and anglo portions of quebec (ie. all the urbanized area between ottawa and montreal) would go with you? Don't count on it. I suspect they'd sue to remain part of Canada, and guess where 80% of your income comes from? That slice of quebec that hugs the st. lawrence, the origin of what bouchard so eloquently terms "de etnic vote" (sic). So either you leave that portion in canada, or simply watch in horror as capital flight rips it to shreds. See the exodus during the LAST separation nonsense? Imagine how quickly people would get the fuck out of dodge if it actually HAPPENED.

And how about the natives that basically have the run of all that northern wilderness? What happens if THEY want to stay in canada, along with their ancestral lands? Will they be given the same opportunity to secede from New France as you were given to leave canada? I wonder how a new french nation could deal with their OWN separation crisis immediately after formation.

the Quebec voted for Mackenzie BECAUSE he said their will be no draft
anyway
its just another lie by a federal party to Quebec people, we now know that just the Canada way to deal with Quebec
just another federal liar, no big deal :2 cents:

and if you think Quebec is that poor, you should check your book my friend, check the 2003 stats, getting out of Canada isnt a bad move at all

and when i said we will quit without paying our part of the Canada debt ?
read my fucking post, Quebec part should be between 16,6 and 32% of the Canada debt, and i have no problem with paying my share, anyway with Jesusland out of the picture, we will be able to close useless stuuf you still not sure about cause of some farmguy in Alberta
legalisation of marijuana
legalisation of prostitution
legalisation of gay marriage
etc etc

you can stay in your 20th century way of thinking
we will enjoy the 21st century for you ;)

ok so from your point of view, if my hometown voted YES at the last referendum, we can quit Canada right now ?
democracy dont work this way
last time it was like 50,5% no against 49,5% yes and the referendum was biased, lots of "ethic" vote cause by illegal PLC manipulation of Immigration Canada and same thing for the provincial law not respected by the PLC
so, under your non-sence logic, all the town who voted yes are now part of the Republique of Quebec ?
Democracity work with the will of the majority
we have always dealed with the english people in Quebec way better than you've done to the franco-ontarian and franco ppl in Manitoba

can i go to public school in french in another part of Canada ?
can i go to a public hospital and have ppl speak me in french in others part of Canada ?
can i have a french newspaper in another part of Canada ?
the answer is still no

dont think people here are all poor and not educated
sorry but welcome in the 21st century

you must live in the boonies

We were the only ones to fully acheive our objectives on D-Day too, I might add. :thumbsup My grandfather was a corporal who hit Juno beach, right smack dab in the middle of the normandy coastline. Took two hours to fuck up the germans and establish a beachhead. Later on, a shell landed near him while on the road to a town called Cain(sp?), near the normandy coast, taking the hearing from his right ear.

Over 1 million canucks served in WW2, including 100k or so in the RCN and 200k in the RCAF. Not bad mobilization for a country that only had a population around 11 million at the start of the war. :2 cents:

Yes.

Yes.

Actually the answer is yes.

Wrong, so fucking wrong it's pathetic.

No point in trying to set you straight though, you've made it patently clear that you will not accept anything (especially hard facts) that is contrary or detrimental to your way of thinking.

Debating with you is.... fun.

http://www.mie.utoronto.ca/csie/queb...ec-walking.jpg

no im more like living here

Trois Rivières
Related: Canadian Geography

(trwä rhahaha275;vyhahaha277;r´) or Three Rivers, city (1991 pop. 49,426), S Que., Canada, at the confluence of the St. Lawrence and St. Maurice rivers. It is a port and an industrial center. The city was founded (1634) by Champlain and took its name from the three channels through which the St. Maurice enters the St. Lawrence. It became a major French trading post and fortified port and was the starting point of many explorers and missionaries. In 1737 the first iron forges in Quebec were built in Trois Rivières. During the 19th cent. lumbering was the major industry, but with the utilization of water power after 1900 the pulp and paper industry became dominant. Textiles, foodstuffs, and electrical appliances are also manufactured. A branch of the Quebec Univ. is located there.

didnt they close the french hospital in Ontario ?
yeah i can proly but some quebec newspaper but im far from sure to find local news ;)
and for french school, bah it at least that ;)

Actually I believe if memory serves it stands as an unequaled record to this day.

As for D-day....

I had several uncles fight in that war. My dad was too young to join the military but served in the merchant navy on a tanker running fuel across the atlantic. One well-placed Nazi torpedo and there would be no CDSmith to entertain everyone :D

i didnt know that and i think it seriously cool
http://www.education.gov.ab.ca/french/m_12/franco/

but that dont make me change my mind :P

I don't know about Ontario. There is the La Verendrye hospital in Fort Frances Ontario, that's all I know of, and I'm not sure of their en Francais capabilities as I've never worked there or been admited.

Here in Winnipeg it is the St. Boniface Hospital, at which I worked for 15 years.

There are several local French publications, one is called Laliberte.

There are several French schools here including the Collage St. Boniface.

This is the largest Francophone community in Canada west of Quebec, as I said earlier in this discussion. Many of my friends are French, I have discussed Quebec and Francophone rights with many of them over the years. Maybe you should do the same and actually talk to some of the folks that live out this way. Ask them if they feel "surrounded" or culturally drained. :1orglaugh

Hey, if you want to play it that way, lets see what the majority of canadians think about you leaving.

Oh, what, your precious democracy doesn't work in your favour then? Tyranny of the english majority?

Careful what you wish for.

Don't tar me with that brush. I've never harassed a french person in my life... unless you count my wife, or the fucker behind the counter of a corner store who wouldn't sell her a pack of duMaurier unless she trilled her 'R's.

I don't recall any english people trying to blow up french government buildings or making public threats against the lives of french diplomats or leaders, either.

I could have done french immersion when I lived in Edmonton. I chose not to, but YES, it's available. Don't believe me? Check it for yourself. It's on page 6.

I don't know. I've never needed to. However, when we were in quebec and my wife needed to go to emergency in St.Jean-du-Richelu (sp?) THERE WAS NOT A SINGLE ENGLISH SPEAKING DOCTOR, NURSE, OR ORDERLY ON STAFF. Not one. Seems a little hypocritical to expect something from Canada you can't seem to provide yourself, non?

Funny, I see Le Monde in every Chapters book store. Perhaps you're referring to the fact that all the newspapers in canada are owned by a powerful oligarchy that sees no profit in having a french newspaper... well you may be right there, but that has to do with the fact that there's no french people in most of the country to read the damn things, not for lack of ability to have them. Strangely enough, I still see french labels on every cereal box.

I never said that people there are all poor and uneducated. My wife and her (and now half of my) entire fucking family are french, jackass. I said YOU were uneducated, or willfully ignorant, if you choose to believe partisan spin about how bright the sun will shine on the fleur d'lis after separation versus HARD FUCKING FACTS AND REAL NUMBERS.

People like you make it real, real hard for me to continue to be a Habs fan.

alors ta aucune probleme a me parler en francais ?
tu sais que c'est plus dur d'expliquer son point de vue dans une langue autre que sa langue maternelle

By the way, my next-door-neighbours are a wonderful French couple in their late 50's. The live in a home similar in design to mine, built in 1914 by French tradesmen. Both houses are in classic French design. This couple spends their spring, summer and fall times here looking after their home and yard, I hear them speaking French all the time, they watch French TV and listen to French radio and happily "preserve their culture" as much as a person can I suppose.

This couple is presently down in Texas with their A class RV doing the "RV thang" for the past 5 months, as they do every winter to escape the viscious Winnipeg winter. I wonder what they'd have to say with regards to feeling "culturally surrounded" or Quebec separating. :D

they dont have to think, they dont leave, splitting the province in small part,some of Canada, some of Quebec is the stupidest idea ever

read your history book man, its now true, but its now true both way, dont insult me i will not insult you, but in fact we have been reel oppresed by the English, but now its ok



weird, usually all the doctor speak in english at least, their book are only in english


The greatest thing about man is his ability to transcend himself, his ancestry and his environment and to become what he dreams of being.

The important thing is this: to be able at any moment to sacrifice what we are for what we could become

The poorest man is not without a cent, but without a dream

The moment of enlightenment is when a person's dreams of possibilities become images of probabilities.



why ? there is no good reason to not be a habs fan, except being a leaf fan :P

No, although I understand some basic French I am not fluent, nor did I need to be in my former job. The St. B Hospital offers full service in both English and French. Any time I had a patient who was non-English-speaking there was always a translator around no matter what language they spoke.

Agreed, but I didn't start this debate, which happens to be taking place on a mostly American (thus English-speaking) board.

I understand your frustration though.

Actually, while down in Mexico I found that the French tourists had an advantage in understanding the locals due to similar words in their resepective languages, whereas I had to struggle much harder to make my meanings clear. Many of the French in my hotel, from Montreal, Quebec and Trois Rivierres etc, offered much help to me and others when talking to waiters and hotel staff.

its just a question of demography

presently in Quebec we can see two ethnic group with totally different way of thinking, and im not just talking about the referendum
fact was, french-canadian doesnt give birth to enough baby, so slowy but surely the % of french-canadians in Quebec decrease
we have made the "loi 101" to have new immigrants here learn french beside learning english as primary language.
You know what is wonderful ?
Those children of the "loi 101" that you hate so much are now like us, they think like us and vote like us
so we can keep our french-canadians lifestyle in your own country

hate it or love it
it will happen,we will have our country

true about that, i was one week in Playa Del Carmen and my spanish is horrible (i must know like 200 words)
but after one day i understanded enough spanish to understand when people were talking in spanish, im not able to speak it, but i can understand it.

i understand you point of view but im just unable to think like that
at least you are not going the racist way and i think when it will happen, it will be an exemple of how a separation between 2 country should be made
with respect of the both side :2 cents:

I don't hate anyone down there. I can get quite peeved at the extreme staunch separatists at times because I find them to be extremely obtuse and unwilling to consider anything other than "what they want" no matter how factual it may be.

You prattle on about how wonderful it will be, whereas I have half a notion that the Canadian military will go in and straighten you out long before it comes to any sort of real secession.

i would like to interupt this "wannabe" thread copying NoCarrier's made by a "wannabe" Canadian.

once again, i did not read your post, i do not have to, but what i can tell you is to get the fuck out of my country you seperatist bastard, i hope all your spawn will grow to hate the stupidity that you may have.

the west is IT! the west IS Canada, we own Canada, and when Ottawa and provinces are de centralized you will realise how fucked up your province is and come back out of the pond.

thank you, but you are not Canadian, kindly LICK MY BALLS.

So where's the dividing line? A province is worthy of splitting off, but not a major portion of a province? Once you start partitioning and splitting off, don't you doubt that a smaller portion will at some point (and probably immediately) want to split off from you and rejoin Canada. Who are you to deny them their democratic dreams?

No, the stupidest idea ever is the idea of splitting in the first place, regardless of the scale.

Should I claim a greivance against the french because my ancestors in russia and the ukraine were dispossessed by Napolean? Okay, fine, your ancestors in lower canada were conquered by the british 150 years or so ago. GET OVER IT.

The best we could find on staff was 'cereal box english'. Some english words were present, but not enough to have a casual conversation, and certainly not enough to go into the depth required by medicine. Good thing lysa speaks french to a reasonable degree still (despite being immersed in anglo culture).

Are you kidding me?

http://quotations.about.com/cs/inspi.../a/Dreams7.htm

You couldn't even be bothered to change around the ORDER? Fuck man, if you have a dream, at least learn how to express it in your own words... and what, Mohammed Ali's words of wisdom aren't good enough to add to your little cut'n'paste collection?

It's also a mark of maturity to know when dreams should end and reality should begin. Perhaps its time to let a little enlightenment in and calculate the probability of a great deal of pain and suffering caused to a great many people, many of which don't share that 'dream'.

Dare to dream, but live in reality.

With the exception of their inability to win a cup in over 20 years, and put together a defensive line that doesn't depend 90% on Theo blocking everything. They need some muscle to help keep the bigger guys from other teams from living in front of the crease. Plus I'm in Halifax, I'm a rarified habs fan drowning in a sea of bruins and leafs addicts.

i was speaking about hate of the loi 101, just re-read and saw the mistake ;)
only problem is there is a lot of Quebec ppl in the Canadian military


using the army against quebec is a VERY bad idea
Today, Land Force Command (army) consists of three field-ready brigades:

* 1 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group in Edmonton, Alberta,
* 2 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group in CFB Petawawa, Ontario, and
* 5 Canadian Mechanized Brigade Group in CFB Valcartier, Quebec (the francophone brigade).

Each brigade contains one regiment each of artillery, armour, and combat engineers and three battalions of infantry (all scaled in the British fashion), as well as a service battalion (logistics), a headquarters/signals squadron, and several minor organizations. A tactical helicopter squadron and a field ambulance are collocated with each brigade but not part of the brigade's command structure.


at the minute France will approve Quebec soverainty, US will be forced to do :P and at this minute
the fact that canadian army attack is even worst :P

The west doesn't own Canada. Ontario alone does more business and makes more money than all the provinces left of the 100th meridian with plenty of room to spare. Quebec may be below average on a national level, but its raw gdp is still twice that of Alberta.

Go ahead and spew vitriol if you must, but at least try to be accurate about it. You could easily make the argument that separation would cause an immediate and dramatic drop in "New France" gdp, considering the massive capital flight from the region in the event of a break.

And how many of them are antifederalist?

Every single french infantryman I've met, without exception, is highly pro-fed. Probably because they've been moved about canada (and indeed, the world) and have the opportunity to develop an alternative perspective.

And even that itself means little. You'd see a popular uprising. Sadly, I'd say that any french people in non-french areas of Canada would be at immediate mortal danger, and areas like pockets of alberta, manitoba and the maritimes would become battlegrounds... if not within quebec itself. Many Canadians would not take kindly to unilateral moves by quebec to destroy the country. My wife and I have discussed how to deal with a sudden and violent surge of antifrench sentiment around here. Most of those discussions involve using phrases like 'sufficient ammunition'.

... and that matters how, exactly? Do you honestly think that the US would give a flying fuck about you one way or the other?

I suspect that if the rest of Canada commenced bombing, most of the US would say "Yep, that's what we would do." They don't take kindly to secessionists down south.

people in the army are usually federalist, its normal, would you serve in the army of a country you dont believe it ?
BUT, fact is they will NEVER attack their friends and family in Quebec, so its just another reason why the canadian army will never attack, its aint Russia here and we are not tchetchenie, lets me told you it would be a VERY BAD idea...
when you will ask a soldier to kill his family and friend, what do you think would happen ?

Would Jean Chrétien have sent the army into Quebec in the event of a close Yes victory in the 1995 referendum? Author Lawrence Martin suggests as much in Iron Man, his latest book on the prime minister's politics.

The more interesting question is not whether he intended to - only Chrétien knows for sure - but whether or not he could have done it even if he had wanted to. The answer to that question is crucial to understanding the events of 1995 and to predicting what could happen the next time. If there is a next time.

There are at least three reasons why Chrétien could not have sent in the army.

Reason No. 1: The army itself. Canada's chief of defence staff at the time, General John De Chastelain, already had said No to sending in soldiers to settle post-referendum conflicts. In December 1991, when support for sovereignty went over 65 per cent following the failure of the Meech Lake Accord, the general declared that the role of the army is "not to do battle for the unity of the country." It is "to act as a centre of stability."

A few days later, he noted on Radio-Canada that soldiers and officers are also full citizens who have political opinions. Therefore, he concluded, if ever there were a "constitutional dismemberment of the country," they would be free to "make their own political choices."

Relying on those words, four days before the Oct. 30 referendum, Bloc Québécois MP Jean-Marc Jacob sent a letter to every soldier and officer stationed in Quebec. He assured them that when Quebec would be sovereign, not before, those who wished to join its new army would be welcome and would keep their ranks.

Given the bold and clear statements of his own chief of defence staff and the fact that a number of francophone soldiers and officers were sovereignists, it's highly unlikely Chrétien would have chanced a wave of disobedience within army ranks by calling on the troops to thwart a Yes victory.

Reason No. 2: Jacques Parizeau. Knowing that Chrétien was more likely to refuse a Yes victory than send in the army, Parizeau, then premier, had long and fully prepared. He was ready to move with measures intended to solidify the victory. One was to immediately reassure the financial markets that Ottawa had no more interest than he did in letting the dollar fall.

Another was a sizeable group of well-known federalists who had agreed privately to come out after a Yes victory to state that they recognized the results. Another was the guarantee that Parizeau had garnered from President Jacques Chirac that France's National Assembly would quickly pass a resolution recognizing the legitimacy of the vote. This was to send a clear message to the international community, including the Francophonie, and Washington, which wanted to see stability prevail so close to American borders.

Reason No. 3: Realpolitik. It's highly unlikely that most Canadians outside Quebec would put up with a prime minister who lost the referendum and who came from the province that had just voted Yes. So Chrétien might have intended to refuse to negotiate with Parizeau, but chances are the ROC would have sent him to the nearest unemployment office faster than he could have said "oops."

But another scenario was more likely. In the event of a close Yes vote, Chrétien could have been tempted to play the soft-line and very popular Lucien Bouchard against hard-line Parizeau, especially since Parizeau had named Bouchard negotiator in chief.

In Martin's book, Chrétien adviser Eddie Goldenberg confirms that his boss's intention was not only to reject a Yes but to propose changes to the federation instead. That would have been much closer to what Bouchard had battled for most of his career than what Parizeau wanted. Who knows what would have happened then?

So what are the lessons? Firstly, that the army is not a player in this issue. Secondly, that even if a close majority of Quebecers voted Yes, the prime minister could reject it or even to try to turn it into an offer of renewed federalism. It's called divide and conquer, or how to rely on those soft sovereignists who see a Yes vote mostly as a tool to garner concessions from Ottawa.

Thirdly, given this very real possibility of a refusal to respect a close Yes vote and the effects of the Clarity Act, some wonder if the time has come to forego the referendum as the key to independence.

There's even a group of young Parti Québécois and Bloc members who advocate a referendum-election instead. Quebec should leave Canada, they say, the same way it came in; through a majority vote of its elected representatives.

But the adoption of this position by the more conservative PQ brass is as unlikely as Chrétien sending in the army in 1995.

I did not minimize our efforts in the war. I only stated that our lands were never directly threaten.

I feel very strongly about the school issues. This is the Canadien Constitution excerpt. I will explain after it what it means and how it is being abused to keep rural Quebec down and further prejudice.
This is very abused by beaurcrats and politicians. Essentially all Canadians can choose to have an education in either langugue. English or French and it does not matter if they are anglophones or francophones. Where such facilities currently exist.

A lawyer friend explained the purpose of this was to place "A restrictive convenant upon the goverment and ensure the rights of both languages in minority situations."

• Par example:
  Jean Besson - A Quebec'r moves from Quebec to Woodsville Alberta. He has 3 children. He is francophone and wants his kids to have a francophone education.
  
  But he discovers that Woodsville Alberta there is no other francophones and no school. Under these circumstance the goverment MUST provide for him the necessary resources to ensure a francophone education for his children. The reverse is true for anglophones in french communities.

• Par example 2
  The goverment decides that a francophone school is a good idea so they build a new 300 student facilty in Jean Besson's area.
  
  Jean Besson is happy but his anglophone neighbour, Jane English, has 3 children and wants them to be bilingual. She has wanted this for her children for a very long time.
  She has asked the goverment to provide a francophone school in the past but since Jane English and her children are not francophones the goverment was not obligated to do anything for her.
  
  So now that the facilities exist she decides to enroll her chidren in the francophone school. And she now has the right to do that because the facility has now been built

If Jean Besson didn't move to this area of Alberta the goverment is NOT under any obligation to place a school for francophones. But once the facilities exist they are there for the enjoyment and use of ALL canadians/candiens.

But everyday this is purposly mis-interpreted to exclude francophones from anglophone schools and the reverse. The first thing principals and directors ask is "Are you english or are you french" An anglophone is denied admittance to french schools because they claim they do not have the "Rights" to attend. Again the reverse is the same.

In the end the children suffer. Anglophones can't get into francophone schools and francophones are scared their children will loose their rights if they send them to an anglophone school

Now this is how it hurts everyone.

There are many anglophones and francophones that want their children to attend each other's schools. Being able to do this allows the prejudice problems to break down. We learn each other's culture and learn to stop segregation

How it impacts on Rural Quebec is this.


Ok the schools are bad. But there are many teachers from other areas of the country that want to get their proverbial feet in the door of teaching. They would be happy to come to regions like mine and teach the children. And they would even be happy to learn and master the langauge.

Instead the get excluded because they are NOT francophones.
Now there are some english schools, like in the Gaspesie region. In some areas the english school is better equiped with better teachers. But since no parent wants to loose their rights to a french education by sending their children to the better school. They go back to the shit ones.


You created the constitution and that little bit in it about education are are aware that almost ALL school boards in this country play this game. But NONE you does anything at all to repair or set it straight. There are horror stories of children being expelled

Here is an interesting bit of information of what happen to a friend of mine.
The solution the federal goverment told to a friend of mine:


Ok, he did. And at first he tried to do it on his own. But the system is intentially complex and an atorney was needed.

Donc,

Lawyer consultation fee: 300cdn
Retainer fee: 400cdn
Court fees, etc etc etc. 3,000cd.

Almost $4,000cdn and a year to resolve the issue.

He got to send his child to a francophone school in Scotia. But this did not stop or change anything.

Only 1 anglophone got the ability to enjoy the richness of francophone culture.

I think I'm starting to see a trend in this thread now. There is no Seperatist vs Federalist. It is RICH vs. POOR

So what it really is that the Seperatists want the right to be the only ones that screw over the poor of the rural Quebec regions. And the Federalists are the ones that don't want to relinquish that claim.

Wow... so wrong on French schools...
I grew up in Calgary..
attended French school in Junior high..
My gf and her sister attended bilingual school all the way up.. (Most courses taught in French...)
There are 4 major highschools (out of maybe 25 total) that offer complete french teaching...
And that's in Redneck Alberta according to you..

As for building Francophone schools in rural Alberta, that's just a silly waste of money..
There's absolutely NO need for French outside of Quebec.... The majority of our business is with Anglos in the US....
But now, immigrants in Quebec are not allowed to go to English schools, yet, immigrants in other cities in Canada are allowed choice...
nice...

You're missing the point I was trying to say here. I agree that the military would be of dubious use to either side. The point I was getting at is that there would be immediate reaction and reprisals by the average canadian against those they perceived as destroying the country. You'd be a fool to think that most people would just sit around and go "huh, well that's a shame" and keep on keeping on.

Things like Parizeau 'reassuring' financial markets would be pretty useless if the financial district in montreal turns into a live fire zone, wouldn't you say?

As for the 'realpolitik' answer, if you had a tenacious barnacle on the underside of canadian politics like Cretien fighting for his political life, do you really think that extreme measures wouldn't have taken place? In his mind, it'd be "take back quebec, or lose it all". He'd do whatever it took... and apparently did, considering some of the things coming to light in this whole sponsorship investigation.

Make no mistake. A lot of people outside of quebec think of separation as some malcontents in quebec actively persuing the destruction of Canada, and with good reason. Should they be successful in destroying the country, it'd be foolish not to expect a swift and bloody retribution in response. :2 cents:

Yeah, I gotta add that recently I've been going around to various Dr's around here.. (Referred to specialists, etc)
Probably 25% of them have had okay English..
The rest have had poor English...
And a lot of the nurses have had NO english..
However, these aren't at 'Hospitals', just clinics

Close, but not quite. It's Rich vs. Rich.

The poor hardly even factor into it, except as a population to be kept mollified with bland entertainments and to serve as wealth re-distribution mechanisms for the already rich.

Honestly, the particular brand of federalists and separatists you're talking about in this equation are only in it for the money and power grab. The little guy is barely an afterthought.

Je pourrai bien repondre en francais, mais je veux qu'on comprenne ce que j'ecris...et la plupart des gens comprennent l'anglais.

Une autre raison pour forcer les francophones a apprendre l'anglais...

C'est jamais forcer, il est plutot une bonne idee dans un region anglophone d'etre capable de parler la langue commun.

Denying the reality of the situation is no more logical than trying to stop the tide. It doesn't mean you STOP being french - that is something inside you, not something from the outside.

Alex

Not to take away from this thread but...
OUI!!! OUI!!! OUI!!!

I am now living in France and I am assulted constantly from the french out here over how I talk or what expressions I use, etc etc.

They even attack the fact that I'm Quebcoise. Because they all can say "I visted Montreal and you don't exactly sound like them."


It's almost 20 hour drive from where I grew up to Montreal. If I did that in France I would be half-way into Italy. It's called a dialect and if I think it's bad I have an Acadien friend out here. You have to see the prejudice to believe it.

Acadiens be warned.... If you visit France take a Quebec'r with you. We are the only ones that won't laugh at you or try and switch to english.

Quebecoise and french is something I am. Not something I have to try and be!

Merci beaucoup

force someone to do something against is will is a very bad idea

Frankly I'm sick and tired of the separatists around here. I didn't really mind it until I realised that they have an extremist and paranoid view.

The only threat to our culture is the damn paranoïd separatists.

All they do in Quebec is blame the immigrants for not being able to talk french. Yet, in every company I've worked in, it's the Quebecers themselves who prefer to talk english and avoid french.

Countries are getting united and you want to separate? How much power or influence do you think you'll have as a tiny country with 7 million people?

Quebecers are very nice people to be around though and very friendly.

Some people are unable to see the reality of their situation. Some people are kept intentionally ignorant so they don't see the reality of the situation. 6 million or so french people in a sea of 300 million english people should be the best reason possible to learn you mother french tongue and make sure everyone can speak english too!

Business, trade, development, investments... those things are all dependant on being able to communicate to the outside world. I am tired of seeing montreal passed over for all sorts of things because companies are not comfortable here, don't like the labor situation, don't like the language laws, and don't like the potential for seperation. You can keep an entire society in the dark about what is going on around them by forbidding them to learn the language of the majority (recent court case, parent lost because they had gone to french school... so their child didn't have the right).

Quebec is a have not province, and it's people are doing very little to change that.

Alex

Yup, very bad idea;
Yet the Quebec government forces shop owners to display at LEAST 60% French on their signs and flyers, and will fine them if they do not..
Forces ALL webmasters to provide their sites in French, regardless of where their target audience is...
Forces immigrants to go to school in French ONLY (can't choose english),

Yet, it doesn't force children to even take 30 minutes of english in school... Pretty much every other city in Canada has mandatory french lessons in elementary school... 30 minutes a day, for 2-3 years...

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I have heard this idea repeated many times in here: that french speaking people in canada must preserve their culture/way of life.

Ok, fine, that's cool. Canada is better with many differing cultures imo. But why the need for all these laws and shit? Look at Chinatown in Vancouver... liltte italy, indo-canadian communities, little saigon, etc etc etc. None of these cultures have laws or regulations to preserve their way of life, but it's definitely been preserved. Why do french speaking canadians need something more then they do?

Maybe we don't want to be transformed ( assimilated ) in a neighborhood .... such as "little quebec" ....

Or maybe because this country was founded on the basis of both french & english populations... correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that Italians, Vietnamese or Indians were part of that agreement ... but again, I can be wrong ....

transformed/assimilated? hahaha, sorry, you dont have much choice. The world is slowly being transformed everyday. Eventually, all people will be beige/brown and speak a mix of hindi and mandarin...

You missed my point though. If francophones are the majority in Quebec, then they won't be in a "little Quebec" neighbourhood, they'll just be in Quebec. No need for silly laws policing the amount of english language on signage and such. Business will put up signage that works, and that's the end of it. If there is a francophone area in a city where they are not the majority, then they will naturally migrate to a "little Quebec" type of area. I can not see anything wrong with that.

English speaking people in Hong Kong have their own little neighbourhood, english speaking people in Japan have one... I don't really see how this is a bad thing.

I just always wonder how much money, time and effort is wasted on policing these kinds of things. And how much is spent on this separation idea. And how much better off people would be if these energies were directed in other more profitable directions.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to go to Montreal and see only english signage or some junk... It's just that I went shopping in Chinatown this morning, on my way home I ate at a vietnamese pho restaurant... and these threads made me think a little more about the cultural differences and how things happen... and how Canada is composed of SOO many cultures and nearly all of them have happily found a way to maintain their cultural identity while still being Canadian. That makes me proud to be Canadian.

Loosing my time here ....

Absolutely... in an independent Quebec. Otherwise, we are now just a " little quebec " in the big Canada.


So basically, according to you, we are just some immigrants, like the Portuguese , Haitians and so on... I tought we were one of the two founding parties of Canada... Fucking books are wrong again. :mad:


Now, don't get me wrong .. I like manu cultures ans speak amany languages, but when I was told as a kid with my mother in a major Mtl downtown store :

" Speak whute, boy " , I realised that there was two countries ....

Definition of a bilingual person: A french quebecer that speaks english ...

Wow touchy, and no you got me all wrong :)

I even like how you purposely mis interpreted my points in quoting me... it's sad that I didn't expect that.

According to me, I feel we don't NEED laws governing language on signage. I never said nor implied that french speaking Canadians are immigrants. Nor did I imply they are less worthy then english speaking Canadians. Matter of Fact, to me, a Canadian is a Canadian, regardless of origin.

I am sorry that some inconsiderate person told you to speak "whute" (white I assume). I'd ASK you to speak english (parlez-vous anglais? thats about all I learned via high school french) if I had to converse with you, only because my french comprehension is low. But when I go to Chinatown and the vendors yell at me in Cantonese or Mandarin I think to myself, wow, this is like another country. But I don't get all upset about it, instead I enjoy the difference.

It's a nice sunny day here, I just finished mowing my lawn, now it's time to wash my cars.

If you guys do separate, bring in peugot's ok? I'd really like to own one.

I have a business trip to Montreal coming up very soon. Can't wait to go. Last time I went it was an awesome trip... and the whole time I was there I didn't once think about this separation thing. It'd be a shame to no longer call Quebec part of Canada.

Quebec accounts for like 24% of the Canadian population. I'd say that's pretty big, not little.

My poor BC doesnt account for that much :|

I see.. so it's like some sort of Penis size thing... Who cares if it's referred to as 'Little Quebec' as long as the culture survives??
Who cares about who 'founded' the country.. If you really want to look at that, look farther at the Indian establishments in the early centuries, or the Nordic explorers...

As for the many cultures, look how much trouble other cultures have in Quebec... Compare the Chinatown in Montreal to the ones in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Toronto, etc... The one here SUCKS...

Now about 'immigrants'.. Yeah, we're immigrants, we've only been here for 300 years...
Chinese have been here for about 125 now... They just weren't dominant in the formation of Canada... your comment almost sounds racist..
as if we're better than the people who moved here recently, just because our grandparents were born here????

On that note, it IS amazing how racist the average French Canadian is....
Quebecois-french language is full of so many derogatory terms for minorities..