50...........

You think so?

Thanks to the AdScam and the Gomery Commision, we know now why and we know the truth.

According to Benoit Corbeil, ex-liberal director. Corbeil is saying that Jacques Parizeau was right. The "YES" lost because of money and ethnic votes.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites...05,1002231.php

Facts (The "NO" won by a majority of only 50 000 votes) :

- The liberals accelerated the canadian citizenship process for thousands of immigrants in Quebec. Their strategy was simple, everyone involved in the process were working for the Liberals.

- When Jean Chretien spoke to the nation, it was a different message in english and french, the english version contained a special message for the immigrants.

- The "WE LOVE YOU RALLY" was extremely costly and it was evident that it was violating the "election" law in Quebec.

Spare me, I've heard it all.

Next.

# 30 Oct 1995: The Quebec referendum on independence failed by 1% on a huge 94% turnout; it won 60% of the French-speakers' vote.
# 1994: During Quebec's elections, the separatist party PQ (Parti Québéquois) wins a majority in the province Quebec.
# 1993: The Bloc Québéquois of Lucien Bouchard succeeds with a second position in federal elections.
# 1982: New Federal Constitution adopted against Quebec's wish to acknowledge its distinctiveness.

?? What are you trying to prove with those facts? It's nothing new.

I knew it! Time to get my stalking mask out... :winkwink:

EXACTLY and most DEFINITLY

As home to the only French-speaking society in North America, Québec is totally distinct from the rest of the continent - so distinct, in fact, that its political elite have been obsessed with the politics of secession for the last forty years. The genesis of Québec's potential political separation from its English-speaking neighbours tracks back to France's ceding of the colony to Britain after the Conquest of 1759. At first this transfer saw little change in the life of most Québécois. Permitted to maintain their language and religion, they stayed under the control of the Catholic Church, whose domination of rural society - evident in the huge churches of Québec's tiny villages - resulted in an economically and educationally deprived subclass whose main contribution was huge families. It was these huge families, though, that ensured French-speakers would continue to dominate the province demographically - a political move termed the revanche du berceau (revenge of the cradle).

The creation of Lower and Upper Canada in 1791 emphasized the inequalities between anglophones and francophones, as the French-speaking majority in Lower Canada were ruled by the so-called Château Clique - an assembly of francophone priests and seigneurs who had to answer to a British governor and council appointed in London. Rebellions against this hierarchy by the French Patriotes in 1837 led to an investigation by Lord Durham who concluded that English and French relations were akin to "two nations warring within the bosom of a single state". His prescription for peace was immersing French-Canadians in the English culture of North America, and the subsequent establishment of the Province of Canada in 1840 can be seen as a deliberate attempt to marginalize francophone opinion within an English-speaking state.

French-Canadians remained insulated from the economic mainstream until twentieth-century industrialization , financed and run by the better-educated anglophones, led to a mass francophone migration to the cities. Here, a French-speaking middle class soon began to articulate the grievances of the workforce and to criticize the suffocating effect the Church was having on francophone opportunity. The shake-up of Québec society finally came about with the so-called Quiet Revolution in the 1960s, spurred by the provincial government under the leadership of Jean Lesage and his Liberal Party of Québec. The provincial government took control of welfare, health and education away from the Church and, under the slogan " Maîtres chez-nous " (Masters of our own house), established state-owned industries that reversed anglophone financial domination by encouraging the development of a francophone entrepreneurial and business class.

In order to implement these fiscal policies, Québec needed to administer its own taxes, and the provincial Liberals, despite being staunchly federalist, were constantly at loggerheads with Ottawa. Encouraged and influenced by other nationalist struggles, Québécois' desire for cultural recognition and political power intensified and reached a violent peak in 1970 with the terrorist actions of the largely unpopular Front de Libération du Québec (FLQ) in Montréal. The kidnapping of Cabinet Minster Pierre Laporte and British diplomat James Cross, with Laporte winding up dead in the trunk of a car, led then-Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau to enact the War Measures Act and send Canadian troops into the streets of Montréal. Six years later a massive reaction against the ruling provincial Liberals brought the separatist Parti Québécois (PQ) to power in Montréal. Led by René Lévesque, the Parti Québécois accelerated the process of social change with the Charte de la langue française , better known as Bill 101 , which established French as the province's official language. With French dominant in the workplace and the classroom, Québécois thought they had got as close as possible to cultural and social independence. Still reeling from the terrorist activities of the FLQ and scared that Lévesque's ultimate objective of separatism would leave Québec economically adrift, the 6.5-million population voted 60:40 against sovereignty in a 1980 referendum.

Having made the promise that voting against separation meant voting for a "new Canada", Trudeau set about repatriating the country's Constitution in the autumn of 1981. Québec was prepared to contest the agreement with the support of other provincial leaders, but was spectacularly denied the opportunity to do so when Trudeau called a late-night meeting on the issue and did not invite Lévesque to the table. "The night of the long knives", as the event became known, wound up imposing a Constitution on the province that placed its language rights in jeopardy and removed its veto power over constitutional amendments. Accordingly, the provincial government refused to sign it - and hasn't to this day.

The Constitution's failure to include Québec became a lingering source of ire, which the beau risque (beautiful risk) equally failed to extinguish. A good-faith alliance between Québécois, the Liberal Party of Québec under Robert Bourassa, and the federal Progressive-Conservatives under Brian Mulroney, the beau risque produced the Meech Lake Accord in 1990. Inspired by Mulroney's talk of bringing Québec back into the Canadian fold with "honour and enthusiasm", the accord sought to recognize Québec's status as a "distinct society" and give it the power to opt out of federal legislation it didn't like - including the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Canadian equivalent of the American Bill of Rights. The talks collapsed on Québec's national holiday, la Fête St-Jean-Baptiste, and tens of thousands of Québécois took to the streets to demonstrate their frustration. The failure also prompted Lucien Bouchard, one of Mulroney's cabinet ministers and primary promoter of the agreement to English Canada, to resign from the Progressive-Conservative Party and form a new sovereignist federal party, the Bloc Québécois . In desperation, the Liberal leader Robert Bourassa hastily threw together a constitutional agreement, the Charlottetown Accord , that attempted not only to satisfy Québec, but the rest of Canada, and the aboriginal peoples as well. The accord's scope was so enormous that it failed on all points and was rejected by Québec and several other provinces in a Canada-wide referendum in 1992.

In October 1993, Québec's displeasure with federalism was evident in the election of Lucien Bouchard's Bloc Québécois to the ironic status of Her Majesty's Official Opposition in Ottawa. The cause received added support in 1994 when the Parti Québécois was returned to provincial power after vowing to hold a province-wide referendum on separation from Canada. The referendum was held a year later and the vote was so close - the province opted to remain a part of Canada by a margin of under one percent (50.6:49.4) - that calls immediately arose for a third referendum (prompting pundits to refer to the process as the "neverendum").

In 1996, Bouchard left federal politics to take the leadership of the PQ, determined to become the leader of a new country and promising to proceed with the separation process and work on the economy. Another step towards constitutional reform was taken in September 1997, when nine of Canada's ten provincial premiers endorsed the Calgary Declaration stating that Québec's unique character should be recognized - a shift from the "distinct society" recognition proposal in the failed Meech Lake and Charlottetown constitutional reform packages. Bouchard, the only premier not in attendance at the meeting, took the new term as "an insult", and the declaration's intentions never really got off the ground. Instead, the federal Liberals enacted the Clarity Act in 1999 - a sharp departure from their previous kowtowing tactics, as the act laid out the requirements Québec needed to meet to secede from Canada. While it infuriated leaders of the sovereignist movement, it also met with sharp criticism from members of the federalist camp who were convinced it would ignite sovereignist fire and result in a definitive Yes vote. Their fears didn't come to pass, however; in a surprising turn of the popular vote, the 2000 federal elections saw the federal Liberals win more in Québec than the Bloc Québécois.

An even greater shock was Bouchard's sudden resignation as Premier of Québec in January 2001, leaving the PQ with no obvious successor that matched his powers of oratory or charisma. Without Bouchard, there is little hope of achieving the dream of a sovereign Québec in the near future - if ever. Whoever the party chooses as his replacement will have to contend with the current political climate that suggests Québécois are tired of the political wrangling and would rather see a new deal that keeps them in Canada. After suffering through the long recession due, in large part, to the political battles that have dominated Québec for the last two decades, Québécois have a vested interest in maintaining the momentum of economic growth the province is currently experiencing. And, for the time being, they appear more interested in maintaining political peace than encouraging old fights


But thank to the liberals and those crooks, they just give to the Quebec 200 millions of good reasons to quit this (i cant even call this a country)...

Then think of it this way..
Even if the 'Yes' vote was 51%, that would still make 49% unhappy with it...
And now the MAJOR change and economic turmoil that would pretty much rend Quebec apart after that, really wouldn't be worth it..
Economically, what arguments can you give, that point towards a stronger Quebec?

First off, they lose Canada's trade advantage, becoming 'just another small exporter'
Second, they assume massive costs in government restructuring, currency creation, armed forces, etc
Third, the complete instability will furthur hamper trade negotiations with other countries.. And all exports would have to leave through Canada...
Many international companies WOULD pull their headquarters out of Montreal, just fearing change... (plus, the majority of their international business IS in English)

long story short.. separation is economic suicide, regardless of proposed cultural benefits....

Considering that the Cree and Inuit occupy 2/3's of Quebec land, including the James Bay area, separation is not a smart financial choice.

"This, of course, is no merely academic debate. In October 1995, the Cree of northern Quebec held a referendum, in which 96.3 per cent voted not to join an independent Quebec. More recently, the councils of some 40, predominantly English-speaking, municipalities have voted in favor of "Staying Canadian" in the event of Quebec separation."

In the Mid 90's 100's of Corp's fled Quebec due to the possibility of the province becoming a Sovereign Nation. This includes The Bank of Montreal which now has it's Corporate Offices and Exec's in Toronto. How much more money does Quebec have to lose before they realize that it is financial doom to separate from the rest of Canada?

# 1982: New Federal Constitution adopted against Quebec's wish to acknowledge its distinctiveness.

this fact

all the other province told us to GFY and some ppl still want to leave with them

ive nothing against english canadians, but fact is Quebec ppl think different, speak different and have nothing to win staying with Canada

I say if the PQ sets up another referendum vote we should clawback the equalization transfers for the year this time. It's only a small percentage of the overall financial costs Quebec will face if a yes vote won. Instead of spending money to fight them we can save some cash and show the Quebec voters some of the truth behind what their being asked to vote on.

To anyone in Quebec who thinks a yes vote by 2.5-3 million people in your province deals you the upper hand against the 2.5-3 million in the province of Quebec and 26-27 million people in the rest of Canada all I have to say is, Keep Smoking That Pipe, because your in for a rude awakening.


Anyone up for calling Quebec the balkans if the yes side was too win?

Best post in this thread so far.

Edit was probably nice ... but there is also a delete button .. would be way more appropriate ...

Your post says ... nothing.

FACT

Internationally, Quebec would also be widely recognized, as no country has
much to gain from refusing to accept the results of a democratic process.

sorry this problem is allready solved
you know what"La Paix des Braves" is ?

Hydro - power :1orglaugh wood, mines... Quebec has always been a massive exporter of " matieres premieres" ... Now we could at least transform it here to create jobs.

We already have a government, including taxation ... We can use US dollar as many other countries do ... Wouldn't hurt at all the canadian currency ....

Export to leave thru Canada... :1orglaugh sure, we have no airports or ports ... Don't forget, we own a part of ALL ports and airports of Canada ...

Your attitude is the type that makes be lean on the separation side. And when I change or forget, there is always another TED WINTERS to remind me .... JE ME SOUVIENS.

I hope they seperate, the 'quebec' dollar will be worthless and that exchange rate will be through the roof.

Don't worry, we already have the fiscal imbalance making us lose 50 millions a week to remind us. Of course, the Federal is getting richer and richer and denying the fiscal imbalance. That reason alone should be enough to leave the federation.

we dont need to have our own currency :P
seem like European country can use the same currency...
why not use the CAD or USD :P

Well the wood buisness took a huge hit with the US tax on imports. The industry is hurting, they just lost Gaspesia. Asbestos was a huge part of the economy and its being banned all over. We are loosing textile jobs to thrid world countries. Hydro is probably the best asset Quebec has.

Which countries use the US dollar as currency? I have no idea on this one. Knowing Quebec, they will want a dollar bill with Rene-Levesque picture on it, thats a guarantee. Quebecers arent all that friendly towards the US so this leads to believe me that they probably wont go to the US $$.

I have to agree that theres going to be a huge transition period and its gonna cost a shitload of cash. Border control, port control,armed forces, intelligence etc. Those are all federal agecies in federal buildings, I have no idea how they are going to negotiate stuff like that.

I doubt Canada will be all that friendly in having Quebec using their dollar after they shit all over them, thats just me though. Im not saying it cant happen. I'm sure theres going to be huge negotiations about Quebec using the CDN dollar and we all know how well Quebec and Ottawa get along

Whoa! I work with an Acadien. Ok, his French might be a little different. But his history started much the same way and he is not from Quebec. You can't forget the cajuns.

We all talk about this history and where it all began. But what about here and now. What can we do to rectify the current situation. We aren't living 200, 300, etc years ago. And english is used everywhere now. so it should not be viewed as an evil enemy.

I've offered what I think is my solution to the problem.

That is forced billingualism to the entire country. Each and every grade school age child has their days broken up to half and half days. In english Canada they start the morning with english and afternoons with french. In french canada it is the opposite.

See my point of view on doing this is because I am now living in france. When I arrived here my opinion was one of "no big deal, we are all french. I'm just getting closer to my cultural roots."

But after surviving pointed attacks on my dialect, coloquilisms and attitudes. It became very obvious that I was not French but Quebecoise. And more than that my attitudes and behaviours are a reflection of what it is to be Canadienne.

In very general terms... when compared with many other cultures, the people of Canada tend to "GET IT." The "IT" is undefinable but somehow Canadians/Canadiens/Canadiennes understand what "IT" is.

The French here don't "Get it." Much as the americans grasp different aspects of "it" but still miss the entire big picture. Therefore they don't always get "it."

Now if I sound really ridiculas, I'm sorry but you either "Get it" or you don't.

Ok, let the flames begin on my "IT" argument.

I think Porto rico does

A qui sont les chiefs , a qui sontttttttttttttttttttttttttttt les chiefs??
JEL SAIS PAS!

:)

stupid fucking frogs, LEAVE the country, GO to France, the ENTIRE country does not want you here accept for other frogs in Ontario.

Alberta has been praying to God that you guys leave, it would save us so much $ to have to not pay for the thousands of lazy fucking french and maritimes people <get the fuck out also.

seperatist? fuck you, i am Canadian, and so should you, FUCK OFF.

yeah Hydro is definitly our best asset, and dont forget we can produce a shitload more and sell it to the US or Ontario :P
yeah Quebec ppl doesnt like the America that elected Bush but i think whatever we use our own currency or another one, that not a big problem..
for the federal stuff, what in Quebec stay in Quebec :P (if only it was that easy...)
but it will be done cause it will be in the interest of both parties to solve it the fastest way...

Fact

No country will recognize the breakup of one of the worlds most successful countries on the basis of a simple majority in one region of the country. With a 2/3rds majority, which you'll never get, you'll have international support. Then there's still the problem of what to do with the millions of Canadians in the province of Quebec who don't want to seperate. Do you tell them they have too leave or give up their citizenship? If they leave will they be compensated by the new country for their loss of property? What if they refuse to leave and refuse to accept the authority of the new government? What if the regions who voted no decide to seperate from this utopian french wonderland of New France; will you send in your army or will you accept their democratic process.

You've been sold an ivory towers pipe dream if you think a 51% yes vote gets you what you want.

i dont think Canada will have the choice.. otherwise, the CND dollar will lose a lot of it value... imagine all the Quebec selling all their CAD...

what we REALLY need to do is to have a vote in the rest of Canada and we get to vote if you should stay or not.

i bet you the rest of the country wants you out also, no one likes you. FUCK OFF.

especially in Alberta if we had this type of vote 90% of us would vote to have you ousted.

french and quebec ppl arent the same ppl at all, we are definitly way different...

btw Canadian is just a term you stole from us
you should be called lickers of his majesty ass, LOYALISTS

A possession of the United States, residents of Puerto Rico lack voting representation in Congress and do not participate in presidential elections. As U.S. citizens, Puerto Ricans are subject to military service and most federal laws. Residents of the Commonwealth pay no federal income tax on locally generated earnings, but Puerto Rico government income-tax rates are set at a level that closely parallels federal-plus-state levies on the mainland.

I dont think Quebec is looking for that. You fall under federal laws but yet have no say on whos making these laws

Are any of you actually Canadians...lol. I mean, I assume so, but are you actually debating separation? It's so so so so dead. It will never happen. Move on. Join the rest of the world. Nativistic movements are bound to implode. Read some Michael Ignatieff.

:1orglaugh :1orglaugh

Canadian? ya the only way you are more canadian than us is because the french settlers came across and fucked the crap out of the native women.

thus yes you are more canadian than me because you are a Mati, Quebec just doesnt want to admit it. think about it.

Puerto Rico is a " commonwealth" situation. Puerto Ricans are US citizens...

Many Central and South American countries use the US dollar as a currency or as a parallele currency... But this is kitchen stuff... Not pertinent.

Thanks! We finally agree on something.

Now go get drunk. Your liver cirrhosis is almost there.

sorry, in ANY real democratic country, 50%+1 is enough ;)
and no country have something to gain not recognising a indepandant Quebec

what ex prime minister Jacques Pariseau said about that

Q: How would you respond to this: Canadians are not asking the federal government how they would respond to a UDI (unilateral declaration of independence) because they know the answer. The Government of Canada would not recognize a unilateral declaration because of its composition, and could not because of the Supreme Court of Canada reference. You would really be in a moral and legal no man's land after a UDI, correct?

A: No. But I've described this often. We must have quickly a recognition as a sovereign country. I do not expect ...
Not besides France ... when you open that up, you see, you put the Americans in a sort of quandry. You know, the Monroe Doctrine and that sort of thing? It would have been awfully difficult for political change of that order in the Americas with the Americans sitting on the sideline. One of the things that the Americans will not try, certainly is to choose Quebec over Canada. Not in any way. If they can avoid recognizing Quebec because Canada would not recognize Quebec, they will. And they support you fully, wholly in this. But there's one thing they don't like -- it's that another country, a unitary country of some size is recognizing Quebec. That inevitably changes their position. They know that -- look I know this. I've discussed these things long enough with the United States to know very well. Yes indeed, the key is France

im still not a licker of his majesty butt, fleeing the united states

"The agreement includes cash payments to the Cree of C$24 million in 2002, C$46 million the following year, then C$70 million a year for 48 years. The Cree also get more control over their community and economy, more power over logging and more Hydro-Quebec jobs."

where is the 70 Million a year going to come from if Quebec separates?

From the " sponsorship" program .....

Are you retarded ... You think Quebec doesn't have 70 million ....

As soon as Quebec seperates the CDN dollar is gonna go to the shits. The political instability will scare all foreign investors and before they put their money back in, its gonna take a while. At least till the situation becomes more stable.

They will just start 10 new online casinos on top of the 250 they are running atm if they dont get the 70M$ , its not really a prob

this is a agreement with the provincial governement, and the Cree leader told the federal governement should learn from the way the PQ dealed with them :2 cents:

yeah im sure golden palace can make this in a year :P

Its not dead in Quebec. The Liberal government is most likely going to loose the next elections and the PQ will be in power. Quebecers are really pissed about this sponsorship scandal, so it might just be the right conditions for a separist movement.

As I said it's a pipe dream. France can side with you all they want, the rest of the world can side with you all they want. If the shit hits the fan it's the Canadians inside Quebec and outside that will set the terms whether you like them or not.

Exactly.

When your in Montreal and look at what occupies all the office buildings its basically crown corporations (ie. via rail), bell canada, and federal and povincial gov't, plus quebec hydro and quebecor media.

I don't see how they feel leaving would be an economic benifit at all.

Sure they could make all their own laws etc... but after that what is the real gain?

exactly, they stole one referendum and we have now the proof, they will not stole two :2 cents:
Quebec is a country in less than 5 years

50 million a week isnt shit :P