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I grew up in government housing units. I've seen and been involved in dozens of fights, and every single one of them were two guys throwing hands and wrestling until someone quit. Randy Coutoure and Vanderleigh Silva will whip someone's ass on 'the street' just the same way they do it in the ring. There is no difference unless someone pulls a knife or a gun, in which case you're fucked anyway unless you get lucky and take the knife away. 'The Street'... ooooooooo hahahahahahaha - the Kung Fu guy's excuse for not having any representatives in NHB EVER win a fight. |
101 keyboard warriors.
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If you throw submissions into wrestling, what do you have? BJJ! They're BJJ men no matter how much they hate the Gracies and don't want to admit it lol |
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Like I said, they are not all BJJ guys as their primary style, but they all train in BJJ. |
yeah yeah, as soon as BJJ guys beat everybody using every style Judo guys start claiming every BJJ technique as their own. Every technique known to man has been part of some obscure art or other, and they can make all the claims they want, but you know and I know that Helio and Carlson put it all together.
Karate guys can't claim to be soccer masters because they had kicks first, and Judo guys can't legitimately claim BJJ master status. |
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Maeda was part of the Kodokan. Kano's Judo Organization. BJJ strength isn't the technique but the organization of usage. Position before submission being the prime example. BJJ made ground fighting an art. The guard was used to defeat Kano's Kodakan in the early 1900's by Fusen Ryu Jiu Jitsu. They would pull their oppoenents between their legs and submit them. Probably the best online breakdown of history I've seen on BJJ and it's origins is Simco's aka Aranha's page. http://www.jiu-jitsu.net/history.shtml Good read. Even an excerpt there about President Roosevelt that proves prophetic with current times, ie. Pride FC and UFC. Darling Kermit: "... I still box with Grant, who has now become the champion middleweight wrestler of the United States. Yesterday afternoon we had Professor Yamashita (Yamashita was Roosevelt's Jiu-jitsu instructor before Meada and Tomita had arrived there in the U.S.) up here to wrestle with Grant. It was very interesting, but of course jiu jitsu and our wrestling are so far apart that it is difficult to make any comparison between them. Wrestling is simply a sport with rules almost as conventional as those of tennis, while jiu jitsu is really meant for practice in killing or disabling our adversary. In consequence, Grant did not know what to do except to put Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of two minutes more he got an elbow hold on him that would have enabled him to break his arm; so that there is no question but that he could have put Grant out. So far this made it evident that the jiu jitsu man could handle the ordinary wrestler. But Grant, in the actual wrestling and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the Japanese. With a little practice in the art I am sure that one of our big wrestlers or boxers, simply because of his greatly superior strength, would be able to kill any of those Japanese, who though very good men for their inches and pounds are altogether too small to hold their own against big, powerful, quick men who are as well trained." Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919) (Theodore Roosevelt's Letters to His Children. 1919. NEW YORK: CHARLES SCRIBNER'S SONS, 1919 NEW YORK: BARTLEBY.COM, 1999) |
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:winkwink: But against just about anyone else, a Wing Chun fighter is going to mess them up pretty bad. |
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All those MMA guys did was run up to them and dragged them down. Anyone can do that. |
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In terms of self-defence, which this thread was originally about, there are absolutely better techniques than muay thai, kickboxing and wing chun. But I also believe that in a street fight a good offence is often the best defence and any of these 3 styles are effective in making sure it's over *before* it gets to the ground. Realistically, most of us will go through our lives hitting hundreds of night clubs, parties and a few bad neighborhoods and dark alleys along the way. Unless you go looking for trouble constantly, the odds are in your favour that even a moderate mastery of any serious technique in this thread will save your ass every time. Again, you are realistically not likely to bump into many MMA masters on the street, nor any other specialized art. ... but, unlike some other people in this thread, I'm not bashing any form which is silly. Wing chun does not "suck" - in an MMA tournment, yes, he will likely be owned - but the key part of MMA is "mixed": A combination of masteries vs. one discipline, in most cases, will be a rout. So, as Anthony pointed out in those videos, a MMA master will obviously have a big advantage over a straight Wing Chun fighter, or muay thai, etc. In all the early UFC fights the "wrestlers" always owned the brawlers. Now all the competitors have to be multi-disciplined to survive ... |
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What you get from these arts is a false sense of security that you can protect yourself from a strong aggressive man. It's a very very dangerous thing to have. |
first rule of fight club is dont talk about fight club
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None of the wing chun clips posted are representative of real wing chun... the first two practitioners are terrible and the cheung vs boztepe match is a grudge match between two bitter enemies, and cheung's style is most definitely not considered street effective by other lineages...
the problem with the first two clips is that they are immobile and just stand there and let themselves be taken down. striking works - look at the sakabura vs. royce gracie fight, sakabura kicked his ass because he had striking skills and didn't allow gracie to take him to the ground... now sakabura is a kick boxer as well as grappler, but the principle is the same - a good wing chun striker won't be taken to the ground easily, and will then strike to the eyes or whatever it takes to get back up. gary lam is a good wing chun guy - check out this, which is more representative of what wing chun should look like: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/GaryLam.wmv and the vids on this page: http://www.garylamwingchun.com/movies.html - it should be noted that he is also a champion kick boxer and kick boxing trainer, and was trained by the same guy that did most of bruce lee's training (wong shun leung). the bottom line is that in a real street fight, which is what this thread is about, rather than an artificial ring situation (no eye/ groin/ throat strikes), against multiple opponents, you simply cannot go to the ground... b/c as soon as you do the guy's buddies will just kick the shit out of you, you are fucked. you have to stay on your feet and strike your way out and escape. |
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WING TSUN no questions about it! :winkwink: |
Yeah Wing Tsun the best art for Self Defense!
I bet you guys really think a Nun created your fighting style too. You really think your chain punching will stop someone intent on hurting you? There is only one Wing Chun guy I have ever respected, and that was because he also trained in grappling of sorts. Some of you might remember him, Scott PB. That Wing Chun Sifu I would not fuck with. Funny how the excuses come out though, two bad ass WC guys fight, and where does it go? The ground. Funny stuff, there were people for both sides there, where was the kicking the heads, stomping the face you guys WC guys all talk about? All I saw were two supposed WC fighters rolling around on the ground like two 10 year olds. Hey, even better, Boeztpe no longer is affiliated with Wing Chun. Why is that? Oh yeah, he's started a MMA team. Guess go with what works, eh? |
interesting that you base your whole perspective on WC on one blurry clip... and that's obviously not a street fight is it.
boztepe left b/c he was fed up with WC politics, not b/c he didn't think it's a good fighting style so what do you do when you grapple your opponent and his 5 friends start kicking you in the back of the head? what do you do when your opponent is a hard fast striker and a standing grappler, and you can't execute the takedown? what do you do against multiple opponents? armed with weapons? i'm not slagging bjj (grappling is effective and has a time and a place), but i think you're being too narrow minded and arguing for the sake of arguing... |
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Hi
I would say Krav Maga for self defence. Also Muey Thai (thai boxing), Jeet kune do and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. thanks tony |
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Your style can't beat one guy who runs at you and drags you down. What makes you think you can handle 5? Again, please. You can't slag BJJ because it works. WC on the other hand, only has Bruce Lee movies to show how effective it is. Once it was put up against other fighting styles, it was proven ineffective in one on one combat. Then, none at all, with excuses that it's made for the street, that it's too deadly for the ring/cage. I am not saying that all WC schools are bad, just like I agree with MP that not all Aikido schools are mcdojos. But, they are the exception to the rule. How in God's name can you say WC works in a real street fight situation when the closest to alive training an average WC school does is light contact? |
Heres the bottom line. In a street fighter against an average fighter. Any old striking art will do. Bottom line, you must train it. If your cardio and muscle memory is not up to par then it's no use to you. You must spend hours and hours training and sparring to make any art useful.
My personal belief is MMA is the future. It's been proven time and time again in orginazations such as the UFC. I train MMA 5 days a week 3 hours day against professional fighters include some UFC fighters. And I still don't want to be in a street fight. It's anybodies game. Everyone has a punchers chance. -Tony |
best self defense - awareness.
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where did i say boztepe isn't doing mma?
like i said, it's clear to me that you're not familiar with WC... the WCers in those vids are obviously unprepared to face a grappler and make the mistake of making ineffective knees/ kicks when they should just redirect and elbow to the head. :) you are making assumptions that all WCers fight like that... some fat white guy (who is clearly not a good fighter anyway, look at how he just loses it) getting taken down and his head pounded does not mean that the style is at fault. your claim that WC schools only train light contact is propoganda, mine certainly doesn't. in a real hardcore fight (rather than an artificial fight with rules in a static environment), you have eye and throat strikes, heel strikes to the nose, groin strikes, kicks through the rear leg, breaks from a punch... instant show stoppers. WCs sticky hands is also uniquely suited to training you to instantly react to what the other person's hands are doing... you learn to logically cover every door. once you have contact and are stuck to your opponents hands (and legs) your opponent will tell you through their movements how to hit them, you are on full auto pilot. you also have to be able to simultaneously attack and defend (the area that kickboxing lacks, good defence) if you want to have a shit show against multiple opponents. i can't speak for every WC school (and like most disciplines there are many shit ones, especially cheung's "traditional" WC which you have used as an example), but I can tell you that my own training has held me in good stead. |
Practice nonviolence.
ADG Webmaster |
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I'm actually more of a boxing fan when it comes to entertainment than MMA. Quit wasting your money Rorshach. Better yet, walk into ANY BJJ academy near you and ask for a fight to test your skills. There won't be anger, they won't give you any shit, they'll find a student to fight you and they'll respect you for being brave enough to ask, and then they'll take you to school. They'll allow you to do your eye gouges, throat strikes, whatever. It won't help you. WC is shit. KF is more shit. I'm sorry and I know you and many others have been told otherwise by well meaning instructors, but it's time to take off the blinders. Read up on the UFC, NHB and the Gracie family. Use your own damn common sense. |
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Man if your going to miss an event... this is not the event to miss! Did you see the fight card? This event maybe the best fight card this year! Did you see last years? It was off the hook. Tournament Matches: Wanderlei Silva (Brazil) vs. Hidehiko Yoshida (Japan) Dan Henderson (USA) vs. Antonio Rogerio Nogueira (Brazil) Quinton ?Rampage? Jackson (USA) vs. Mauricio ?Shogun? Rua (Brazil) Igor Vovchanchyn (Ukraine) vs. Yuki Kondo (Japan) Kevin Randleman (USA) vs. Kazuhiro Nakamura (Japan) Kazushi Sakuraba (Japan) vs. Yoon Dong Sik (Korea) Vitor Belfort (Brazil) vs. Alistair Overeem (Holland) Dean Lister (USA) vs. Ricardo Arona (Brazil) :pimp |
Anthony or Dig
Could you guys comment on what to look for when finding a suitable BJJ instructor? I'm not US based so names or anything probably won't help but I'm certainly interested in maybe taking up BJJ and combine it with MT. Thanks in advance! Oh if you wanna contact me by e-mail or ICQ that'd be fine too ICQ 181191 or robert ((@)) pradaboy ((dot)) nl |
Nothing better than the ancient Chinese self-defense system: RUNFOO
Easy to learn: When in trouble...RUN you fool |
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Here's a pretty recent listing of BJJ schools in the US and abroad. http://bjj.org/academies/non-us.html |
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http://www.cadu.nl/ could you check this one out? the site is in English... this one's a bit closer to me. |
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Muiiy-tai is the most effective martial art for self defence.
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