I have a small beef with many porn review sites.

[AaronM]

A porn review site is intended to give surfers an accurate review of what to expect in the site. In most cases, these review sites are also affiliates of the sites they are reviewing.

Now....Clearly the intent behind these sites is to be honest with the surfer but why in the bloody hell do so many of these sites bitch about DRM encrypted videos?

Surfers bitch when they can't download videos.

Site owners bitch when a surfer downloads all the videos during a trial then cancels.

DRM meets both parties halfway. Our primary target is recurring memberships...Not a one time quickie.

DRM helps with retention. PERIOD. It seems to me that these review site owners would embrace such a thing since many of them are getting paid based on a rev share program. Instead, they bad mouth it and imply to the surfer that it's not a good thing. Based on my experiences, most surfers don't seem to care unless they are cheap bastards who try to download everything during a trial anyway....Fuck those guys.

For the record.......I've tried 3 different DRM solutions over the last 2 years or so and I have NEVER received a single email from a recurring member who was upset about the DRM encryption...BUT....I have received many emails from members who were unhappy because they could not download vids before I implemented DRM.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

I am with ya on this one AaronM.
DRM is the right way to. I am just worried about all the Microsoft Updates.
One Caveet: A couple recent updates have screwed up some DRM solutions which in turn creates some problems for it.

[OY]

Did anyone mention http://playadrm.com ?

I get the same from customers. It is important, however, to make sure the settings are correct. For instance, set a 10 play license to content that is inside the members areas so they dont have to keep on being prompted, but that they WILL be prompted at a later time when no longer being members and still trying to access the content. Works like a charm!

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Did anyone mention http://playadrm.com ?

No, they didn't. Probably because this is not a spam thread and most people respect that.

If it were intended to be a spam thread then I would have mentioned www.natnetdrm.com in my initial post rather than waiting for somebody else to mention a different product first.

[potter]

AaronM,

Contact me on aim or icq - in sig. Need to talk to you.

[AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE]

HEheehehhe.

[pornstar2pac]

I agree. off with their heads. i'm coming out with a reviews site with not 1 ref link on the site

[seeric]

don't get me started on the DRM thing. its amazing how many content owners cut off their nose to spite their faces.

[Digipimp]

i thought most porn review sites were just a cover to make money but not really write good reviews

[OY]

Originally Posted by AaronM

No, they didn't. Probably because this is not a spam thread and most people respect that.

If it were intended to be a spam thread then I would have mentioned www.natnetdrm.com in my initial post rather than waiting for somebody else to mention a different product first.

Forgot to mention www.objectcube.com and www.drmnetworks.com

[Sly]

Review sites are there for the surfers. If they don't give honest reviews, surfers don't come back for more. From what I've seen, surfers don't like DRM.

Thats it in a nutshell.

DRM may have been designed to increase intention, but is it actually working?

[bawdy]

If site owners are concerned that surfers are going to download all the videos during a trial period they could limit the number of videos downloadable during the trial.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Oystein

Forgot to mention www.objectcube.com and www.drmnetworks.com

And to think that Chris had me sold on MPA3.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Sly

Review sites are there for the surfers. If they don't give honest reviews, surfers don't come back for more. From what I've seen, surfers don't like DRM.

Thats it in a nutshell.

DRM may have been designed to increase intention, but is it actually working?

Wrong. CHEAP surfers don't like DRM. As I mentioned...Fuck them.

A recurring member is happy as long as the site gets updated regularly. These are the people I cater to. The people who complain don't even make enough money for me to cover the monthly cost of the DRM.

Another funny thing about trial members.....When you cancel with CCBill you are asked to list why you cancelled. To date, I do not recall getting a single recurring member who cancelled with the reason of "not satisfied...However, about 1/4 of the cheap bastards who do trials then cancel immediately offer that as their reason. Did I mention fuck them?

[OY]

Originally Posted by AaronM

And to think that Chris had me sold on MPA3.

OK ok ok, I see that my bad taste humour and spam backfired on me.

My bad and unprofessional.

I will take my humour with my back to my cave and feel dumb about it.

[tedwinters]

As a partial surfer myself, I get pissed off when I join a site, and find DRM...

personally, I'd rather spend my money on a different site with regular updates, and no DRM....
and then, they'll keep me as a member, cause I always want the updates for my personal collection.... and I can burn 'em on dvd... watch 'em on my divx player or xbox, and know that in 3 years, even if the site goes defunct, I'll still have the porn..

as a review site writer, I let my feelings be known about that

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by bawdy

If site owners are concerned that surfers are going to download all the videos during a trial period they could limit the number of videos downloadable during the trial.

Then people bitch when they don't get full access for their few dollar trial.

My trials are high priced at $9.95 for 2 days and I can't decide if I should get rid of them altogether or charge more for it.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by tedwinters

As a partial surfer myself, I get pissed off when I join a site, and find DRM...

personally, I'd rather spend my money on a different site with regular updates, and no DRM....
and then, they'll keep me as a member, cause I always want the updates for my personal collection.... and I can burn 'em on dvd... watch 'em on my divx player or xbox, and know that in 3 years, even if the site goes defunct, I'll still have the porn..

as a review site writer, I let my feelings be known about that

As a site owner..Tough Shit.

If you want the videos for your DVD player then you can buy the DVD's I offer instead of ripping content from a site that you did not stay a member of. I sell a recurrig membership, not a free for all.

[tedwinters]

And that's precisely why you get so many people complaining

so... I guess what I'm wondering about, is why you're complaining???
The review sites that complain about DRM will just dissuade customers who would normally cancel on you anyways.....

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by tedwinters

And that's precisely why you get so many people complaining

so... I guess what I'm wondering about, is why you're complaining???
The review sites that complain about DRM will just dissuade customers who would normally cancel on you anyways.....

"And that's precisely why you get so many people complaining "


Um....I don't get very many people complaining.

To answer your question....The average GFY member doesn't know WTF DRM is.......And a lot of them are in this business. From what I have personally seen, the average surfer does not even know what DRM is doing. Why mis-educate them into thinking it's a bad thing?

There are 2 option for me:

A: Offer DRM downloadable vids.

B: Don't offer downloadable vids at all.

People bitched WAY more when ooption B was in place.

[TheDoc]

I figure if they can download the photos they can download the videos. With trials you have learn how to deal with them in a unique way, look outside of the box. Some people earn money on trials

DRM, unless I 100% knew it would increase retention; I would have no need to add it. With good retention now I don't think it's going to create some major improvement in retention or in return visitors. At least when people can download/share my content, more peoples eyes on my watermark and more people to type in my domain. If they don't signup, I probably wouldn't have sold them anyway and it?s no loss to me. People sharing my content on boards, newsgroups, etc.. Gets me free sales, every day.

I have very low member complaint e-mails.

[tedwinters]

Originally Posted by AaronM

" Um....I don't get very many people complaining.

Yeah, I misread your first statement, I thought you said you had way more complaints when implementing DRM...

As for DRM, I think it's actually more of a thing of the past... I like some features of it, eg: exclusitivity/reduction of pirating; however, I do not like the time limits imposed.

Definately offering DRM is better than offering nothing at all, and, if you're not losing any members, then it definately works for you...

Whether it'll continue to take off or not, I dunno.. there was a HUGE push towards DRM several years ago, but, thanks in part to flawed implementation, that movement suffered major drawbacks...
It's just too many hassles, updating your DRM server software every year when MS changes it, redoing your videos to match the newest implementation... etc etc..

but yeah, as a surfer, and a cheap one, I still don't like DRM, cause it means I don't have it forever .. You'll retain me by offering regular updates... Not by reducing my freedom to watch porn whereever/whenever I want..

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by TheDoc

I figure if they can download the photos they can download the videos. With trials you have learn how to deal with them in a unique way, look outside of the box. Some people earn money on trials

DRM, unless I 100% knew it would increase retention; I would have no need to add it. With good retention now I don't think it's going to create some major improvement in retention or in return visitors. At least when people can download/share my content, more peoples eyes on my watermark and more people to type in my domain. If they don't signup, I probably wouldn't have sold them anyway and it?s no loss to me. People sharing my content on boards, newsgroups, etc.. Gets me free sales, every day.

I have very low member complaint e-mails.

Valid points. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Offering the DRM downloads did increase retention for me but I am getting a lot of ICQ feedback from others about this thread and not everybody has seen the same results that I have.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by tedwinters

....As a surfer, and a cheap one, I still don't like DRM, cause it means I don't have it forever .. You'll retain me by offering regular updates... Not by reducing my freedom to watch porn whereever/whenever I want..

That's horseshit. If a site offers regular updates and you like it then why would you cancel because of DRM when you still have access to those vids as a paying member?

If I charge you $30 a month to access my site and you burn DVD's out of all my content then how can I expect to sell DVD's as well?

If you want the scene on DVD then spend the $34.95 + S&H and get 3 scenes delivered to your door. I have a living to make and it is not based on allowing people unlimited access to a site that sells MONTHLY memberships for a reason. You're not buying the right to own a copy of those videos, you are renting them on a monthly basis, and as such, they are copyrighted materials which you are not authorized to duplicate. So...Tell me why I should support you ripping me off when you are violating my copyright?

[sweetcuties]

don't use drm, surfers want to be able to download content! also, don't offer trials or any shit like that. that's it, nothing else

[baddog]

Originally Posted by pornstar2pac

I agree. off with their heads. i'm coming out with a reviews site with not 1 ref link on the site

I hope that is a joke.

[Anna_O]

Originally Posted by sweetcuties

don't use drm, surfers want to be able to download content! also, don't offer trials or any shit like that. that's it, nothing else

Aaron is going to tear you apart... Don't step into threads you can't handle.

[sweetcuties]

On another note, many of the review sites aren't even accurate. They give higher ratings to people with the highest payouts or for the most part, sites that are well known

[tedwinters]

Originally Posted by AaronM

That's horseshit. If a site offers regular updates and you like it then why would you cancel because of DRM when you still have access to those vids as a paying member?

If I charge you $30 a month to access my site and you burn DVD's out of all my content then how can I expect to sell DVD's as well?

I'd cancel, cause I'd rather spend my $30 at another site that offers DRM-free vids, and keeps updating... Yes, there is SOME exclusive porn on the net.. but usually you can find a competitor offering nearly the same stuff...

If you want the scene on DVD then spend the $34.95 + S&H and get 3 scenes delivered to your door. I have a living to make and it is not based on allowing people unlimited access to a site that sells MONTHLY memberships for a reason. You're not buying the right to own a copy of those videos, you are renting them on a monthly basis, and as such, they are copyrighted materials which you are not authorized to duplicate. So...Tell me why I should support you ripping me off when you are violating my copyright?

I don't want to have to spend $200/mth on your site, buying dvds plus keeping my membership up just so I can continue to have access to the vids I've downloaded - and then being forced to view 'em with mediaplayer instead of mediaplayer classic, videolan, etc.. Nothing is being 'duplicated'... They don't get 'passed around', they get 'archived', hence, no copyright violation occurs... fair-use policy...

I guess you need to think of it this way.. surfers don't like greedy webmasters, just like webmasters don't like cheap surfers... there's a fine balance.....
when a surfer has a choice, he'd rather pay for the site that gives him the least shit to deal with, and the best content...
in this over-inflated porn world, there tends to be a lot of competition....

you'd do okay with DRM, just because you have such high-quality content that's not easy for other webmasters to duplicate....
but on a general basis, DRM sucks...

[TheSaint]

DRM has a place, but keep in mind its a real minority of surfers who plan to pay $30 or so per month for a porn site - as much as cable TV in some markets - forever.

I know myself I have joined a few sites as a surfer but would never join for more than a month no matter how fucking good. You have to be a bit of a sex addict to want to belong to the same site year after year.

The current model is broken because a lot of members join, download 50 of my movies, and cancel. I just sold 40 hours of content for $25.

I would love to move to a DRM model someday but would probably offer the members the ability to still download and keep a few movies, maybe some sort of a compromise. I just can't see saying "fuck you" to the majority of surfers who aren't going to buy a recurring membership, no matter how much they love the site.

[sweetcuties]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Aaron is going to tear you apart... Don't step into threads you can't handle.

I've got nothing personal against Aaron or drm, just speaking my mind. That's the problem with this biz, to many people scared to say what they think because they won't get this or that from established people or "vertans". I'm a man, I do my own thing.

Thanks for your concern, lol

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Anna_O

Aaron is going to tear you apart... Don't step into threads you can't handle.

Oh...I'm not gonna tear her apart. My guess is that she doesn't know what DRM is based on the following comment:

"don't use drm, surfers want to be able to download content!"

DRM is meant for downloadable content...Seems that she does not grasp this concept.

[Major (Tom)]

There is no evidence that DRM retains members. From what I have heard from some bigger sites is that DRM nearly wiped out their recuuring base. I think its a good idea, i just see it as a bottle kneck that is bound to cause technical issues.
cheers
DUke

[Anna_O]

Originally Posted by sweetcuties

I've got nothing personal against Aaron or drm, just speaking my mind. That's the problem with this biz, to many people scared to say what they think because they won't get this or that from established people or "vertans". I'm a man, I do my own thing.

Thanks for your concern, lol

Just meant the fact that you didn't back up your claim with any valid points... Ofcourse you shouldn't be scared of speaking your mind, but please back it up too

[mattyboy]

We use DRM on a few of our sites. Everyone seems to think that DRM means the surfer can only continue to view the movies whilst they are an "active member"... which isn't the case. Its very flexible and you can make it work how you want it to. We offer lifetime licences on our movies, add around 300 mb's of content each week which gives a nice balance between surfer and webmaster.

[Sly]

Originally Posted by AaronM

Another funny thing about trial members.....When you cancel with CCBill you are asked to list why you cancelled. To date, I do not recall getting a single recurring member who cancelled with the reason of "not satisfied...However, about 1/4 of the cheap bastards who do trials then cancel immediately offer that as their reason. Did I mention fuck them?

So drop trials.

You have a totally exclusive site and its the best converting CCBill site I've ever sent traffic to. I'd rather take a "worse conversion" and get full paying members, wouldn't you?

A lot of people will say trials make you more money in the end. But most of those people run completely different paysite models.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by tedwinters

Nothing is being 'duplicated'... They don't get 'passed around', they get 'archived', hence, no copyright violation occurs... fair-use policy...

Fist you say that with DRM you can't play it on your xbox or whatever...Now you are saying that no duplication happens. Now, maybe I'm an idiot here but I was not aware that people were surfing my sites from their xbox's. This tells me that you are duplicating the content to DVD or another format then watching it on another device and keeping it.

Now...Go to Blockbuster, rent a DVD, copy it, and then return the DVD to Blockbuster and tell me that you have not just violated the copyright.

We are not talking about fair use with the ability to copy your a master DVD which you own, we are talking about you renting content then pirating it.

That makes you a thief...No matter how you try to twist it.

[Anna_O]

Aaron, what's your site? We could need something new to promote... webmaster (at) annasdungeon.com

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by AaronM

Oh...I'm not gonna tear her apart. My guess is that she doesn't know what DRM is based on the following comment:

"don't use drm, surfers want to be able to download content!"

DRM is meant for downloadable content...Seems that she does not grasp this concept.

Kinda like I don't know what I'm talking aobut when i refer to him as a woman.

Originally Posted by sweetcuties

I'm a man, I do my own thing.

Oops.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Sly

So drop trials.

You have a totally exclusive site and its the best converting CCBill site I've ever sent traffic to. I'd rather take a "worse conversion" and get full paying members, wouldn't you?

A lot of people will say trials make you more money in the end. But most of those people run completely different paysite models.

I've been considering this for awhile now.

[tedwinters]

Originally Posted by AaronM

Fist you say that with DRM you can't play it on your xbox or whatever...Now you are saying that no duplication happens. Now, maybe I'm an idiot here but I was not aware that people were surfing my sites from their xbox's. This tells me that you are duplicating the content to DVD or another format then watching it on another device and keeping it.

How so?? Maybe i download it straight to dvd... no duplication..
that being said... If i download your video, can I not copy it from harddrive to harddrive??
Duplication implies multiple copies.. If I burn it to dvd, and then delete it from my harddrive.. no duplication has taken place.. it's been 'moved'...

Now...Go to Blockbuster, rent a DVD, copy it, and then return the DVD to Blockbuster and tell me that you have not just violated the copyright.

See.. and that's the difference... Surfers assume that they're buying lifetime licenses when they sign up to the site.. they're not assuming a 'rental'... If I make the choice between paying $30 for a porn site that lets me 'rent their content', or paying $30 for a site that lets me keep their content on my hd for as long as I want.. I'd choose the second option...

We are not talking about fair use with the ability to copy your a master DVD which you own, we are talking about you renting content then pirating it.

That makes you a thief...No matter how you try to twist it.

And once again, it gets back to rental policies... as I was saying.. I'd rather sign up for a site that lets me download their content, and keep it as long as I'd like... they'll keep me as a member by updating regularly....
many sites now offer 'zip downloads' of galleries for the user...

why would I sign up for a site that has js protection blocking picture downloads, DRM protection limiting video playback,
when I can just sign up for a different site that has none of those hassles???

The average surfer doesn't sign up for a membership, and then leech the shit out of it... They look at a few vids... maybe keep one or two of the REALLY good ones... Spend a few hours when they first join, and continue on their way... checking again when your site is next updated..

DRM will work for you.. but not for 99% of the sites found on the web...

[WarChild]

I have to wonder if DRM is good for retention why did Reality Cash, Xbang and other sponsor programs rip it out? It's been out of Reality Cash for some time now, and if retention dropped after it was removed, wouldn't Lensman add it back it?

[fünkmaster]

Originally Posted by AaronM

In most cases, these review sites are also affiliates of the sites they are reviewing.

OMG, I am running out of smilies !!!

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by tedwinters

How so?? Maybe i download it straight to dvd... no duplication..
that being said... If i download your video, can I not copy it from harddrive to harddrive??
Duplication implies multiple copies.. If I burn it to dvd, and then delete it from my harddrive.. no duplication has taken place.. it's been 'moved'...


See.. and that's the difference... Surfers assume that they're buying lifetime licenses when they sign up to the site.. they're not assuming a 'rental'... If I make the choice between paying $30 for a porn site that lets me 'rent their content', or paying $30 for a site that lets me keep their content on my hd for as long as I want.. I'd choose the second option...



And once again, it gets back to rental policies... as I was saying.. I'd rather sign up for a site that lets me download their content, and keep it as long as I'd like... they'll keep me as a member by updating regularly....
many sites now offer 'zip downloads' of galleries for the user...

why would I sign up for a site that has js protection blocking picture downloads, DRM protection limiting video playback,
when I can just sign up for a different site that has none of those hassles???

The average surfer doesn't sign up for a membership, and then leech the shit out of it... They look at a few vids... maybe keep one or two of the REALLY good ones... Spend a few hours when they first join, and continue on their way... checking again when your site is next updated..

DRM will work for you.. but not for 99% of the sites found on the web...

Keeo twisting.

Originally Posted by AaronM

That makes you a thief...No matter how you try to twist it.

[Mack]

I am inclined to agree with Aaron's thoughts on this one. But in reality DRM appears to be somewhat of a doomed idea. Without an very high percentage of programs and sites using DRM, surfers and members like the people in this thread will just seek out sites that that can download from without DRM implemented.

[Snake Doctor]

DRM is one of those things that would work great if EVERYONE used it....but that's not the case.

Most site owners who implemented it got alot of rebellion from members and lost alot of them....so they dropped it and went back to the old way.
As long as the majority of sites don't use DRM surfers are going to stay away from the sites that do use it.....non DRM is a better deal for them.

I'm not sure how I feel about the review sites telling the surfers about DRM.
On the one hand they're affiliates and want to makes sales and retain members. On the other hand they want to keep bookmarkers and get repeat business so they tell it like it is.

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by Lenny2

I'm not sure how I feel about the review sites telling the surfers about DRM.
On the one hand they're affiliates and want to makes sales and retain members. On the other hand they want to keep bookmarkers and get repeat business so they tell it like it is.

Hence the title of this thread: "I have a small beef with many porn review sites."

[MrPinks]

I don't see where your beef should be with ALL review sites. I run a review site and I am aware of DRM but I don't have a problem with it. It has it's positives and negatives which can be argued over for days on end. I would not tell someone not to join a site because of DRM. I can point out the fact that the site does have DRM and it is up to the surfer to choose to join that site or maybe another. The only problem I would have with a site is if they advertise unlimited downloads or ""Watch whenever you want" without stating that it requires an active membership. I think if all sites eventually utilize DRM then it may increase retention.

Mr. Pink's

[tedwinters]

Originally Posted by MrPinks

I think if all sites eventually utilize DRM then it may increase retention.

Mr. Pink's

Yup, except it'll never happen Too much incentive to drop it, as has been seen in the last 2-3 years since the big push towards it...
I guess the thing to remember, is it's a buyers market out there

As popular economic theory says; no profit can be made in the long run....

[AaronM]

Originally Posted by MrPinks

I don't see where your beef should be with ALL review sites.

Do people even read thread titles around here anymore?

"I have a small beef with many porn review sites."

Now maybe it's me...But I don't see the word "ALL" mentioned there.