ok, so sometimes when playing Texas Hold Em - GoFuckYourself.com

luv$ · 03-19-2005, 01:27 AM

Online...

I sometimes play like a fucking pro, and other times I make the stupidest fucking decisions.

Anyone have any good "rule of thumb" guidelines they follow when the cards treat you like shit?

Aside from "quit" or "stop" of course, lol.

WWC · 03-19-2005, 01:32 AM

Dont chase the cards, let the cards come to you...be pateint and dont try new tricks :-) stick to the rules of playing...oh ya and study the % of your position carefully after ever card or move...

luv$ · 03-19-2005, 01:44 AM

thanks man!

BIGTYMER · 03-19-2005, 01:57 AM

One play good pockets, like pairs, and suited cards.

spentrent · 03-19-2005, 02:06 AM

To become an expert poker player who profits in the long term, you have to sack up and ONLY concern yourself with the long term.

Consider this: every time someone sucks out on you -- taking bad pot odds on a draw for instance -- you actually profit, you DON'T lose, since YOU made the mathematically correct decision with a positive expected value. The more +EV decisions you get a chance to make, the more money you make. Tell your opponent "well played" without a hint of irony, since his bad decisions help your bottom line in the long term.

ALL you can do to be successful at poker is to make decisions that have a positive expected value. It's simple: players who make more +EV decisions than their opponents are the ones who profit. EVERY time you make a +EV decision, you are profiting, whether you win a particular pot or not.

You CANNOT be results-oriented in poker. You MUST be EV-oriented.

When you are results-oriented, you're just asking the Poker Gods to put you on tilt. Results-oriented poker players are the ones who keep playing all night and all day because they get stuck early. Bad decisions are easier to make, and crappy hands look better.

STOP caring about the money NOW.

After every hand you play, ask yourself, "Did I make a decision that will result in profit if I made the same decision 1 million times, or did I make a decision that will result in a loss if I made the same decision 1 million times?"

Stay attuned to the long term, and one day you'll realize how silly your question is.

Oh, and DO QUIT if you're not in a state of calmness and alertness. You're increasing your chance of making poor decisions. Remember, the money DOES NOT matter; only the EV matters.

luv$ · 03-19-2005, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spentrent

since YOU made the mathematically correct decision with a positive expected value.

GREAT advice man!

But - how do u come to these "mathematical decisions"?

spentrent · 03-19-2005, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv$

GREAT advice man!

But - how do u come to these "mathematical decisions"?

I'll give you an elementary example of a mathematically correct decision:

If you've been playing for a while, you've probably encountered the term "pot odds." This is a basic element of poker that holds no mystical properties, but it factors into all of your decisions-- the pot odds describe the ratio of the current pot size to the amount you have to call to stay in the hand.

Imagine you're in a cash game and a player has pushed all-in on the flop. No one else is in the hand. The flop has 2c7cQd and you're holding AcKc. You're pretty sure that the opponent has at least a pair, so for you to win the pot you'd have to hit your flush draw. The all-in bet makes the pot $300 and you would have to call $100 to stay in. Do you call?

The pot is laying $300 to $100, or 3 to 1 "pot odds." Since the player is all-in, there will be no action after you call this bet. The odds against making your flush on one of the next two cards to come are about 2 to 1.

If you call this bet 3 times, on average you will lose $100 two times and win $300 one time, so you will average +$100 every 3 bets for a positive expectation of $33 per bet. So you better damn well call, or you're LOSING $33 bucks over the long term every time you pass up this opportunity!

This a +EV decision that you can be proud of having made even if you happen to miss your flush in this instance. You see how the pot is laying bigger odds then the odds are against you winning? That's a mathematically correct decision.

luv$ · 03-19-2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spentrent

I'll give you an elementary example of a mathematically correct decision:

If you've been playing for a while, you've probably encountered the term "pot odds." This is a basic element of poker that holds no mystical properties, but it factors into all of your decisions-- the pot odds describe the ratio of the current pot size to the amount you have to call to stay in the hand.

Imagine you're in a cash game and a player has pushed all-in on the flop. No one else is in the hand. The flop has 2c7cQd and you're holding AcKc. You're pretty sure that the opponent has at least a pair, so for you to win the pot you'd have to hit your flush draw. The all-in bet makes the pot $300 and you would have to call $100 to stay in. Do you call?

The pot is laying $300 to $100, or 3 to 1 "pot odds." Since the player is all-in, there will be no action after you call this bet. The odds against making your flush on one of the next two cards to come are about 2 to 1.

If you call this bet 3 times, on average you will lose $100 two times and win $300 one time, so you will average +$100 every 3 bets for a positive expectation of $33 per bet. So you better damn well call, or you're LOSING $33 bucks over the long term every time you pass up this opportunity!

This a +EV decision that you can be proud of having made even if you happen to miss your flush in this instance. You see how the pot is laying bigger odds then the odds are against you winning? That's a mathematically correct decision.

I can see how this works in theory, but in practice there are sooo many variables that it's hard to estimate those odds.... i think.

For example - what if I have a 10c4c in my pocket?

How do I know, or at least mathematically wager; that he is'nt pushing other possible flushes out or that he has a higher possible flush-draw?

Also, if I was the one with the Q in the pocket in this instance, would you say it's ideal to bet, and what amount?

spentrent · 03-19-2005, 04:15 AM

Quote:

How do I know, or at least mathematically wager; that he is'nt pushing other possible flushes out or that he has a higher possible flush-draw?

You have to consider his range of possible hands for making that play. Will this opponent show you top pair (or better) 90% of the time and a bigger flush draw 10% of time? 80/20? 70/30?

Quote:

Also, if I was the one with the Q in the pocket in this instance, would you say it's ideal to bet, and what amount?

You want to bet an amount that will cause your opponent to have made a mistake if he were to call. In a limit game, you just want to bet.

V_RocKs · 03-19-2005, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by luv$

I can see how this works in theory, but in practice there are sooo many variables that it's hard to estimate those odds.... i think.

For example - what if I have a 10c4c in my pocket?

How do I know, or at least mathematically wager; that he is'nt pushing other possible flushes out or that he has a higher possible flush-draw?

Also, if I was the one with the Q in the pocket in this instance, would you say it's ideal to bet, and what amount?

Listen to what the man says boy... EV is the way to play.

Texas Holdem with REAL people is a single deck game. Beating it is mathmatically easier than beating based on the luck of the cards. EV accounts for ALL of the variables and you are stuck in the mode of what is going to happen in THIS hand.. Stop thinking about 1 hand and think and how you will do over the next 1000...

azguy · 03-19-2005, 05:11 PM

My rule is to never play poker online...

spentrent · 03-19-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azguy

My rule is to never play poker online...

That's a +EV decision for most people, -EV for some ;).

Babagirls · 03-19-2005, 05:39 PM

dont be afraid to fold.

The Bootyologist · 03-19-2005, 05:50 PM

holdem is a folder's game

rebel23 · 03-19-2005, 07:24 PM

watch out for the limp re-raise move from early position, you should have AA or KK before even thinking of calling or re-raising

Alky · 03-19-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V_RocKs

Listen to what the man says boy... EV is the way to play.

Texas Holdem with REAL people is a single deck game. Beating it is mathmatically easier than beating based on the luck of the cards. EV accounts for ALL of the variables and you are stuck in the mode of what is going to happen in THIS hand.. Stop thinking about 1 hand and think and how you will do over the next 1000...

even 1000 isnt long term

Alky · 03-19-2005, 07:29 PM

always stick to your game... no matter what

The_Photographer · 03-20-2005, 03:21 AM

If you're looking for guidelines and tips, you probably shouldn't be playing for real money... If you're an aggressive player - even if you are weak - you will be rewarded sometimes. In the end, everyone can calculate odds, but the cards that come up don't follow odds on any single hand and people do get lucky and outdrawn.

Secondly, if you don't know who the fish is within the first 20 minutes of sitting at an online table, you're probably the fish. Most tables have a couple of strong players that sit there all night and take money away from fish that come in and out throughout the night. Choosing a table is 1/2 the battle in online poker. You should have a decent idea who you're playing before you actually 'sit down'.

Lastly, just because you're playing, doesn't mean you're learing. There's a million tutorials and articles on the net to google and read. Read first, try second. I would also recommend regular live table games first if your friends know how to play. Also see if there's any cheap charity tournaments in the area/free bar tournaments/etc.

03-19-2005, 01:27 AM	#1
luv$ !$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$ Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paper Street Posts: 6,158	ok, so sometimes when playing Texas Hold Em Online... I sometimes play like a fucking pro, and other times I make the stupidest fucking decisions. Anyone have any good "rule of thumb" guidelines they follow when the cards treat you like shit? Aside from "quit" or "stop" of course, lol. __________________ Domain Auction - now till 12:01AM on the 2nd... Paper Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet Cash The Real Workout - Innocent High - Oye Loca - Her Freshman Year - Solo Interviews - This Girl Sucks. ** HQ Fresh ORIGINAL sites.

03-19-2005, 01:32 AM	#2
WWC #1 Adult Content Provider Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Glendale, Ca Posts: 11,577	Dont chase the cards, let the cards come to you...be pateint and dont try new tricks :-) stick to the rules of playing...oh ya and study the % of your position carefully after ever card or move... __________________ [email protected] ICQ : 494-353-230 Follow WWC on Twitter CLICK HERE! " CONTENT PROVIDER OF THE YEAR! " ~ 2007 , 2008 & 2009 XBIZ AWARDS WINNER! .......www.WorldWideContent.com / www.WorldWideFeeds.com...... WWC Nominated " Content Licensor of The Year " 2010 XBiz Awards !!!

03-19-2005, 01:44 AM	#3
luv$ !$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$!$ Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Paper Street Posts: 6,158	thanks man! __________________ Domain Auction - now till 12:01AM on the 2nd... Paper Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet Cash The Real Workout - Innocent High - Oye Loca - Her Freshman Year - Solo Interviews - This Girl Sucks. ** HQ Fresh ORIGINAL sites.

03-19-2005, 05:39 PM	#13
Babagirls Text Writer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 18,812	dont be afraid to fold. __________________ Need a Text Writer? Blogs\|Reviews\|Descriptions\|Paysites\|TGP's\|Stories ICQ: 397892500

03-19-2005, 07:24 PM	#15
rebel23 Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 817	watch out for the limp re-raise move from early position, you should have AA or KK before even thinking of calling or re-raising __________________ ICQ: 37378183

03-19-2005, 01:57 AM	#4
BIGTYMER Junior Achiever Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Walled Garden Posts: 17,066	One play good pockets, like pairs, and suited cards.

03-19-2005, 02:06 AM	#5
spentrent Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: LA Posts: 876	To become an expert poker player who profits in the long term, you have to sack up and ONLY concern yourself with the long term. Consider this: every time someone sucks out on you -- taking bad pot odds on a draw for instance -- you actually profit, you DON'T lose, since YOU made the mathematically correct decision with a positive expected value. The more +EV decisions you get a chance to make, the more money you make. Tell your opponent "well played" without a hint of irony, since his bad decisions help your bottom line in the long term. ALL you can do to be successful at poker is to make decisions that have a positive expected value. It's simple: players who make more +EV decisions than their opponents are the ones who profit. EVERY time you make a +EV decision, you are profiting, whether you win a particular pot or not. You CANNOT be results-oriented in poker. You MUST be EV-oriented. When you are results-oriented, you're just asking the Poker Gods to put you on tilt. Results-oriented poker players are the ones who keep playing all night and all day because they get stuck early. Bad decisions are easier to make, and crappy hands look better. STOP caring about the money NOW. After every hand you play, ask yourself, "Did I make a decision that will result in profit if I made the same decision 1 million times, or did I make a decision that will result in a loss if I made the same decision 1 million times?" Stay attuned to the long term, and one day you'll realize how silly your question is. Oh, and DO QUIT if you're not in a state of calmness and alertness. You're increasing your chance of making poor decisions. Remember, the money DOES NOT matter; only the EV matters.

03-19-2005, 05:11 PM	#11
azguy Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Scottsdale, AZ Posts: 5,167	My rule is to never play poker online...

03-19-2005, 05:50 PM	#14
The Bootyologist So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: m00dville Posts: 2,912	holdem is a folder's game

03-19-2005, 07:29 PM	#17
Alky Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston Posts: 5,651	always stick to your game... no matter what

03-20-2005, 03:21 AM	#18
The_Photographer Registered User Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 27	If you're looking for guidelines and tips, you probably shouldn't be playing for real money... If you're an aggressive player - even if you are weak - you will be rewarded sometimes. In the end, everyone can calculate odds, but the cards that come up don't follow odds on any single hand and people do get lucky and outdrawn. Secondly, if you don't know who the fish is within the first 20 minutes of sitting at an online table, you're probably the fish. Most tables have a couple of strong players that sit there all night and take money away from fish that come in and out throughout the night. Choosing a table is 1/2 the battle in online poker. You should have a decent idea who you're playing before you actually 'sit down'. Lastly, just because you're playing, doesn't mean you're learing. There's a million tutorials and articles on the net to google and read. Read first, try second. I would also recommend regular live table games first if your friends know how to play. Also see if there's any cheap charity tournaments in the area/free bar tournaments/etc. __________________ Jesus is Santa Claus for adults.