More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales - GoFuckYourself.com

yuvalus · 03-03-2005, 06:14 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/in...e/27dutch.html

AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged.

But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street.

In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country."

Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy?

The answer, increasingly, is yes. This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said.

There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted.

In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst.

"Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate."

Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam.

There are no precise figures on the numbers now leaving. But Canadian, Australian and New Zealand diplomats here said that while immigration papers were processed in their home capitals, embassy officials here had been swamped by inquiries in recent months.

Many who settle abroad may not appear in migration statistics, like the growing contingent of retirees who flock to warmer places. But official statistics show a trend. In 1999, nearly 30,000 native Dutch moved elsewhere, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics. For 2004, the provisional figure is close to 40,000. "It's definitely been picking up in the past five years," said Cor Kooijmans, a demographer at the bureau.

Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year's worth of paperwork, the family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children.

"When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot safely cycle home at night," said Mr. Konings, 49. "My son just had his fifth bicycle stolen." At school, his children and their friends feel uneasy, he added. "They're afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids."

Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls "a safer, more peaceful place."

Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams, overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets.

ssp · 03-03-2005, 06:27 AM

So true. I'm getting the fuck out of here next May.

Dalai lama · 03-03-2005, 06:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssp

So true. I'm getting the fuck out of here next May.

Where are you heading too ?

Mr Dickovitch · 03-03-2005, 06:38 AM

How long before they start stoning all the dutch people to death for not worshipping Allah?

Phoenix · 03-03-2005, 06:40 AM

anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

dont get pushed out of your own country

ssp · 03-03-2005, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dalai lama

Where are you heading too ?

UK for a few months and then to the USA.

Drake · 03-03-2005, 06:46 AM

Wow

I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
"In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

ssp · 03-03-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33

Wow

I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
"In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

I'm not leaving this country because I'm afraid. I'm leaving this country because the attitude of the general Dutch public has taken a turn for the worse. Holland might be perceived as a social country where everybody is welcome but that's far from true when you talk to Dutch people.

This society is fed by fear and anger by a few radicalist muslims. The Dutch now fear muslims and are afraid that muslims will take over this country because the government refuses to take matters into own hands. There is no understanding between people anymore and negativity has taken the upperhand.

This is certainly not the time for me to live in Holland anymore. I'd rather live in a society filled with hypocrits like America than a society based on fear like Holland.

I must say I've been wanted to get out of this small minded country for years now, but it seems this is the right time to pack my bags.

Phoenix · 03-03-2005, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike33

Wow

I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews:
"In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags."

Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews?

Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries?

Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

I have heard Denmark is having the same problem.
I think most Dutch people are too polite to name a race of people for the reason they want to leave..or embarrassed.

jukeboxfrank · 03-03-2005, 07:03 AM

I think the Dutch will see that America will welcome them with open arms..........
Ya we suck in a lot of ways but we are also a great place to live here and there..

VirtuMike · 03-03-2005, 07:08 AM

You think America is not a society based on fear? Turn on American TV sometime. You'll see how much ad money sells you on fear. The entire American society is based on fear.

ssp · 03-03-2005, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jukeboxfrank

I think the Dutch will see that America will welcome them with open arms..........
Ya we suck in a lot of ways but we are also a great place to live here and there..

You might be mistaken. Maybe the American public likes the Dutch, but Dutch people have just as many problems getting in the states as any other country. America is one of the hardest countries to emigrate to. That's the reason many people choose to live in Australia, Canada or New Zealand.

Sneezy · 03-03-2005, 08:15 AM

apart from the hostile climate that has overcome Holland in the last decade, there are simply a few more reasons to think of why you should want to move out of there.

I'm chillin in Canada for 3 years now. Why?
Well, you do the math.

people on a km²; compare this:
Holland 41,526 km², Population: 16.25 million
Canada 9,970,610km², Population: 30 million

The price of Gasoline ; compare this:
Holland: ? 1,25 a liter (is about 1,63 cad $)
Canada: cad $ 0,85 a liter

The price of cars ; compare this:
a Hummer h2
in Holland: ? 125.000,00 all taxes included (is about 204,575 cad $)
in Canada: cad $ 68,000 tax included

The price of a house ; compare this:
a simple family house (min. 3 bedrooms) garden on all sites in a 'good' town or neighborhood;
in Holland: starting at ? 450.000 (is about 737,000 cad $)
in Canada: starting at cad $ 250,000

The list of reasons goes on and on, trust me.

btw SSP, don't forget to sell your new plasma tv, cause we're on 120 volts in North America ;-)

Fake Nick · 03-03-2005, 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneezy

The price of cars ; compare this:
a Hummer h2
in Holland: ? 125.000,00 all taxes included (is about 204,575 cad $)
in Canada: cad $ 68,000 tax included

BULLSHIT dude, a H2 in holland would be around 75 000

Fake Nick · 03-03-2005, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sneezy

The price of a house ; compare this:
a simple family house (min. 3 bedrooms) garden on all sites in a 'good' town or neighborhood;
in Holland: starting at ? 450.000 (is about 737,000 cad $)
in Canada: starting at cad $ 250,000

BULLSHIT dude , a normal house goes for 200 000

ssp · 03-03-2005, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fake Nick

BULLSHIT dude , a normal house goes for 200 000

LOL What would you know about Holland, you live in Belgium!

A normal house goes for 200k maybe if you want to live in nomansland. An average house goes for 300k easily here in the "randstad". You might want to check out the price of a Hummer too!

Relish XXX · 03-03-2005, 08:54 AM

From the NY Times.

Of course, there is a call from the Muslim community to cut her head off.

"There needs to be much more open discussion of these issues in Europe and in the wider Islamic world. Theo Van Gogh was later executed in the street in Amsterdam.

As she begins to pray, the woman looks heavily veiled, showing her eyes only, but her
long black chador turns out to be transparent. Beneath it, painted on her chest and
stomach, are verses from the Koran.

More women appear. A bride is dressed in white lace, but her back is exposed. The
Koranic verse that says a man may take his woman in any manner, time or place
ordained by God is written on her skin.

The images roll on, now showing a woman lying on the ground, her back and legs marked
by red traces of a whip. The Koranic verses on her wounded flesh say that those guilty of
adultery or sex outside marriage shall be punished with 100 lashes. There are chilling
sounds of a cracking whip; there is the haunting beauty of the Arabic calligraphy and soft
music.

These are scenes from "Submission," a 10-minute film shown on Dutch prime time
television, written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born refugee, now a member of the Dutch
Parliament. Since the English-language film was shown in late August, it has been at the
center of a national uproar, which is exactly what the author wanted.

Ms. Hirsi Ali, 34, who grew up as a Muslim but has abandoned her faith, said her purpose
was not to give offense but to draw attention to what she contends is widespread but
hidden violence against Muslim women, even those living in Europe.

She turned to the power of images, she said, to focus attention on abuse, incest, forced
marriages and the suicides of young immigrant women. Despite her writing and speaking
on the subject for several years, she said she felt that the subject remained a public
taboo. "Muslims deny it," she said, "and many Dutch are afraid of taking it on, of causing
religious tension, of being called racists."

The stories of the four women in the film are composites, she says. Critics have called
them simplistic, even caricatures. But the images fired up a new debate in the Netherlands
on how to modernize or adapt Islam as it expands across Europe.

The film has brought new death threats against her. She already has two round-the-clock
government bodyguards.

In this nation of 16 million people, a million of them Muslim immigrants or their
descendants, Ms. Hirsi Ali is part of a small but growing group of women who say they
want to spread the message that the Muslim faith can be practiced without what she
calls "savage Medieval customs" like genital cutting, beatings or the confinement of
women to their homes. Some of those advocates contend that modernization of Islam
must come from women, particularly European Muslim women.

The film and the photographs taken from it have appeared in Dutch newspapers,
magazines and television shows, drawing an outpouring of both praise and outrage.

"Of course it's a political pamphlet, that's undeniable," said Theo van Gogh, who directed
the film and insisted that he does not see why many Muslims are so shocked. He said he
was deliberately cautious, adding that if he had really wanted to shock, the film would
have been different.

It opens with a prayer, and then the narrator tells stories of four women who ask for
God's help to lighten their suffering. According to the narrative, one was forced to marry a
man she hates, one was raped and made pregnant by her uncle, one was whipped after
she had sexual relations with her boyfriend and one was repeatedly beaten by her
husband. The women feel abandoned by God, despite their devotion to him.

As a close-up of a battered and bruised face appears, the narrator says: "Oh Allah , most
high. You say that men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because you have
given one more strength than the other. Yet I feel at least once a week the strength of my
husband's fist on my face."

The woman who was raped, says she has always turned to "you Allah, covering myself as
you wish it. And now that I pray for salvation, you remain silent as the grave I long for."

Critics argue that it is not the spoken text, but the writing of Koranic verses on the
women's flesh makes the film blasphemous. "There's nothing wrong with what is said, this
is reality," said Loubna Berrada, whose family is Moroccan and who is an advocate for
women's rights. "But the nudity is wrong. It's too confrontational."

But then, she went on to say, talking has not changed anything. It's the whole system, in
which women participate, that must change. "The women pass on the oppression to their
daughters; they educate their sons," Ms. Berrada said.

The avalanche of published letters and articles reacting to the film includes one from
Fadoua Bouali, a nurse in an Amsterdam hospital who said she had been shocked by the
number of fearful young Muslim women who have surgery to conceal the fact that they
are not virgins.

"Already men on their wedding days are getting a virgin, stitched up by Jewish, Christian
or atheist hands," she told the magazine De Tijd. "Is that what they want?"

Carla Rus, a Dutch psychiatrist, said she had worked for 20 years with abused women in
shelters, where more than half were Muslims. "Suicide attempts among foreign young
women are five time higher than among local women," she said, citing studies.

While the debate goes on, so do the attacks on Ms. Hirsi Ali. A rap song, played on some
local radio stations, calls for her death. Chat rooms and e-mail messages announce death
threats. The police in Rotterdam have just arrested a young Moroccan man whom they
charged with sending a death threat to Ms. Hirsi Ali.

She says she intends to continue her campaign.She recently demanded in Parliament that
the minister of interior order the police to review their definition of murder in cases
involving young women. She contends that at least a dozen of the annual killings of
Muslim girls in the Netherlands are revenge killings by brothers, fathers or relatives. The
police record them as family conflicts, she said.

"Police say they want to avoid stigmatizing a group," said Ms. Hirsi Ali. "I say, we have to
know the truth."

In addition to the film, Ms. Hirsi Ali has published two books of essays on the plight of
Muslim women, "The Son Factory" and "The Cage of Virgins."

Her next project is another short film: "Submission - Part Two." She said it will feature the
men's point of view. "

grumpy · 03-03-2005, 09:04 AM

thats why we moved to Canada.
Holland is getting to crowded. But no way we would wanna move to the USA.
For so many reasons.

Platinumpimp · 03-03-2005, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

dont get pushed out of your own country

I saw that movie...the main character fucking the shit out of a girl on his bed with the Nazi Cross above his bed...

Fake Nick · 03-03-2005, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssp

LOL What would you know about Holland, you live in Belgium!

A normal house goes for 200k maybe if you want to live in nomansland. An average house goes for 300k easily here in the "randstad". You might want to check out the price of a Hummer too!

lol , we are not talking about a FULL OPTION V8 FULL LUXURY hummer here dude ,but just a standard no frills and trills factory hummer

they go for 75 000 I believe , the link you gave is a V8 Luxury , so yeah they are more , and I was told that if you want golden rims you even pay more , LOL

and that house you are talking about , he compares a house in nomansland canada with a house in centre of rotterdam , and yeah thats a huge difference, but a normal house in a small town goes for 200k in holland not 300k and def not 450k like sneez said

ssp · 03-03-2005, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fake Nick

lol , we are not talking about a FULL OPTION V8 FULL LUXURY hummer here dude ,but just a standard no frills and trills factory hummer

they go for 75 000 I believe , the link you gave is a V8 Luxury , so yeah they are more , and I was told that if you want golden rims you even pay more , LOL

and that house you are talking about , he compares a house in nomansland canada with a house in centre of rotterdam , and yeah thats a huge difference, but a normal house in a small town goes for 200k in holland not 300k and def not 450k like sneez said

You might be right on the Hummer. I haven't gone to the dealer to find out the price of a cheap model yet (and don't plan too lol). As far as the house is concerned, he was talking about a house in a decent neighbourhood and those indications aren't even that far off. Unless you want to live on the Veluwe.

But hey this is a useless conversation cause who fucking cares, I really don't.

Fake Nick · 03-03-2005, 09:52 AM

Project-Shadow · 03-03-2005, 09:55 AM

The U.K is suffering from the same problems, Islamic people are now allowed to wear full face masks when attending school etc etc. I'm getting the hell out of here A.S.A.P.

Mojiteaux · 03-03-2005, 10:01 AM

It's cowards that leave...

Manowar · 03-03-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Project-Shadow

The U.K is suffering from the same problems, Islamic people are now allowed to wear full face masks when attending school etc etc. I'm getting the hell out of here A.S.A.P.

werd, the government need to do something

alexg · 03-03-2005, 10:32 AM

coming soon in UK, france, and basically the rest of europe

Nembrionic · 03-03-2005, 10:47 AM

Last count indicates there´s about 1 mln Muslims in The Netherlands.

So 1 in 16 is a Muslim.

For me muslims wouldn´t be a reason to leave the country though. Not yet at least. But 10 years from now I think yes.(Planning on leaving way before that though)

Mefo · 03-03-2005, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nembrionic

Last count indicates there´s about 1 mln Muslims in The Netherlands.

So 1 in 16 is a Muslim.

For me muslims wouldn´t be a reason to leave the country though. Not yet at least. But 10 years from now I think yes.(Planning on leaving way before that though)

not true 1 at 16 is foreign, so that also includes germans, americans etc

jp714 · 03-03-2005, 10:58 AM

Well I would hate to see this thread turn to hate!

I have lived and worked with muslims :

One thing to remember with islam is :

Allah provides

hey if you spend all day banging your head on the floor he/her better (fuck i asked jesus and he said

)

Convert now to my relgixne : buy low sell high lol

who gives a shit only the poor rebel (loook it up don't know yor history)

So fuck all the Gods , the gods are compassionate (not the people that clame to represent them ) Guess gods need a lot of money an wepons

I bow to the only GOD _ sex -drugs- @ whatever music makes your day

Rich · 03-03-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phoenix

anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;)

dont get pushed out of your own country

lol, that's the message you took from that movie?

Psycho.

Sneezy · 03-03-2005, 11:14 AM

I know that in Belgium the cars and houses are cheaper then in Holland, so maybe that is why Fake Nick reacted on the figures in the way he did.

Talking about Belgium. I've read somewhere that they are gonna vote on the question "should Belgium stay a seperate country or not" wtf?

Maybe fake nick can shine a light on this lol

About the hummer. Can you agree on the fact that there is still a HUGE price difference even with a stripped one ?
(btw I took the price fro the Dutch hummer from autotrader; the new ones on there we're all arround 100k without tax)

DutchTeenCash · 03-03-2005, 11:15 AM

funny, every month or so this pops up, well all you guys leaving for the states, have fun and dont forget to keep your dutch pass, so youll be able to return in a month or 3, cause everyone thinks the states are NY LA and Miami.

Sadly enough theyre not, if you wanna live there, bring some cash, cause life there is double or more as expensive as it is here, plus muslims everywhere

If you wanna live in hillbilly county be my guest, but you can do that in holland too, get a converted barn for 10k and be happy...

Ive seen many many leave and even more return... holland is the best country imho in europe, what till youre in need of social care, medical care etc and havent got cash, i wouldnt base my opinions on a one sided view... 2 cents

Nembrionic · 03-03-2005, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mefo

not true 1 at 16 is foreign, so that also includes germans, americans etc

No, YOU are wrong.

http://www.katholieknederland.nl/arc...002_14368.html

In 2002 there already were 890.000 muslims over here.
The article on that site is from ANP.

I´m looking up the latest article I read on it as we speak.

Nembrionic · 03-03-2005, 11:23 AM

http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw...rland_1100.xml

http://www.zqcentral.com/index/news/show/3513

here ya go.

CheeseFrog · 03-03-2005, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VirtuMike

You think America is not a society based on fear? Turn on American TV sometime. You'll see how much ad money sells you on fear. The entire American society is based on fear.

Couldn't have said it better. It seems like the American people fear Islam. Just look on any message board in the US -- TONS of threads with athiests & others bashing Christianity. But when it comes to Islam the atheists know when to shut the fuck up and sit the fuck down. Bring up Muslims/Islam, and suddenly all the religion bashers get all quiet. Hmm...

NickB. · 03-03-2005, 11:43 AM

I left holland 5 months ago, it seems that lots of things have changed!
I'll find out next Tuesday....

I never experienced anything real bad with moslims living in Holland, just a couple of fights, but that could have happened with dutch guys as well.

I have very close moslim friends in Holland, studying law at a university, a cop and 2 restaurant owners, all 100% integrated.

Personally I would say it can be a problem in the future.... if the dutch government will not get its acts together real soon.

yuvalus · 03-03-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexg

coming soon in UK, france, and basically the rest of europe

Sad yet true

I hope it won't happen

StuartD · 03-03-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuvalus

Sad yet true

I hope it won't happen

It's odd seeing your posts without "yarh" and "scallywag" in them

yuvalus · 03-03-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NichePay - StuartD

It's odd seeing your posts without "yarh" and "scallywag" in them

LOL
actually it was a trick to see who's the real pirate

I think it was g0hst

StuartD · 03-03-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuvalus

LOL
actually it was a trick to see who's the real pirate

I think it was g0hst

uh huh... sure sure

yuvalus · 03-03-2005, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NichePay - StuartD

uh huh... sure sure

Usually when I'm arguing with someone about something like that, when both sides are sure they are right and not the other party, I offer them to make a bet

usually they shut up after this

I'll betcha for $50

(but we have to decide how can we rull out who was right)

03-03-2005, 06:14 AM	#1
yuvalus Confirmed User Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 1,906	More Dutch Plan to Emigrate as Muslim Influx Tips Scales http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/27/in...e/27dutch.html AMSTERDAM - Paul Hiltemann had already noticed a darkening mood in the Netherlands. He runs an agency for people wanting to emigrate and his client list had surged. But he was still taken aback in November when a Dutch filmmaker was shot and his throat was slit, execution style, on an Amsterdam street. In the weeks that followed, Mr. Hiltemann was inundated by e-mail messages and telephone calls. "There was a big panic," he said, "a flood of people saying they wanted to leave the country." Leave this stable and prosperous corner of Europe? Leave this land with its generous social benefits and ample salaries, a place of fine schools, museums, sports grounds and bicycle paths, all set in a lively democracy? The answer, increasingly, is yes. This small nation is a magnet for immigrants, but statistics suggest there is a quickening flight of the white middle class. Dutch people pulling up roots said they felt a general pessimism about their small and crowded country and about the social tensions that had grown along with the waves of newcomers, most of them Muslims."The Dutch are living in a kind of pressure cooker atmosphere," Mr. Hiltemann said. There is more than the concern about the rising complications of absorbing newcomers, now one-tenth of the population, many of them from largely Muslim countries. Many Dutch also seem bewildered that their country, run for decades on a cozy, political consensus, now seems so tense and prickly and bent on confrontation. Those leaving have been mostly lured by large English-speaking nations like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where they say they hope to feel less constricted. In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags. But the killing of the filmmaker Theo van Gogh, a fierce critic of fundamentalist Muslims, seems to have been a catalyst. "Our Web site got 13,000 hits in the weeks after the van Gogh killing," said Frans Buysse, who runs an agency that handles paperwork for departing Dutch. "That's four times the normal rate." Mr. van Gogh's killing is the only one the police have attributed to an Islamic militant, but since then they have reported finding death lists by local Islamic militants with the names of six prominent politicians. The effects still reverberate. In a recent opinion poll, 35 percent of the native Dutch questioned had negative views about Islam. There are no precise figures on the numbers now leaving. But Canadian, Australian and New Zealand diplomats here said that while immigration papers were processed in their home capitals, embassy officials here had been swamped by inquiries in recent months. Many who settle abroad may not appear in migration statistics, like the growing contingent of retirees who flock to warmer places. But official statistics show a trend. In 1999, nearly 30,000 native Dutch moved elsewhere, according to the Central Bureau of Statistics. For 2004, the provisional figure is close to 40,000. "It's definitely been picking up in the past five years," said Cor Kooijmans, a demographer at the bureau. Ruud Konings, an accountant, has just sold his comfortable home in the small town of Hilvarenbeek. In March, after a year's worth of paperwork, the family will leave for Australia. The couple said the main reason was their fear for the welfare and security of their two teenage children. "When I grew up, this place was spontaneous and free, but my kids cannot safely cycle home at night," said Mr. Konings, 49. "My son just had his fifth bicycle stolen." At school, his children and their friends feel uneasy, he added. "They're afraid of being roughed up by the gangs of foreign kids." Sandy Sangen has applied to move to Norway with her husband and two school-age children. They want to buy a farm in what she calls "a safer, more peaceful place." Like the Sangens and Koningses, others who are moving speak of their yearning for the open spaces, the clean air, the easygoing civility they feel they have lost. Complaints include overcrowding, endless traffic jams, overregulation. Some cite a rise in antisocial behavior and a worrying new toughness and aggression both in political debates and on the streets. __________________ Mail me: [email protected]

03-03-2005, 06:40 AM	#5
Phoenix BACON BACON BACON Industry Role: Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poems everybody, the laddie fancies himself a poet Posts: 35,462	anyone ever see Romper Stomper? ;) ;) dont get pushed out of your own country __________________ Skype Phoenixskype1 Telegram PhoenixBrad https://quantads.io

03-03-2005, 07:03 AM	#10
jukeboxfrank Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: www.jenniferworthington.com Posts: 1,207	I think the Dutch will see that America will welcome them with open arms.......... Ya we suck in a lot of ways but we are also a great place to live here and there.. __________________ ICQ= 231-182-592

03-03-2005, 07:08 AM	#11
VirtuMike Confirmed User Join Date: May 2002 Location: Seat 1A Posts: 2,483	You think America is not a society based on fear? Turn on American TV sometime. You'll see how much ad money sells you on fear. The entire American society is based on fear. __________________ Host it in AMSTERDAM at EUROTIVITY! - We also offer BACKUP SERVICES! XYZZY4L

03-03-2005, 08:15 AM	#13
Sneezy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 450	apart from the hostile climate that has overcome Holland in the last decade, there are simply a few more reasons to think of why you should want to move out of there. I'm chillin in Canada for 3 years now. Why? Well, you do the math. people on a km²; compare this: Holland 41,526 km², Population: 16.25 million Canada 9,970,610km², Population: 30 million The price of Gasoline ; compare this: Holland: ? 1,25 a liter (is about 1,63 cad $) Canada: cad $ 0,85 a liter The price of cars ; compare this: a Hummer h2 in Holland: ? 125.000,00 all taxes included (is about 204,575 cad $) in Canada: cad $ 68,000 tax included The price of a house ; compare this: a simple family house (min. 3 bedrooms) garden on all sites in a 'good' town or neighborhood; in Holland: starting at ? 450.000 (is about 737,000 cad $) in Canada: starting at cad $ 250,000 The list of reasons goes on and on, trust me. btw SSP, don't forget to sell your new plasma tv, cause we're on 120 volts in North America ;-) __________________ no sig 4u

03-03-2005, 06:27 AM	#2
ssp Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 7,990	So true. I'm getting the fuck out of here next May.

03-03-2005, 06:38 AM	#4
Mr Dickovitch Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 1,070	How long before they start stoning all the dutch people to death for not worshipping Allah?

03-03-2005, 06:46 AM	#7
Drake Hello world! Industry Role: Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 12,508	Wow I wonder why emigrants didn't indicate the muslim population as a problem in the interviews: "In interviews, emigrants rarely cited a fear of militant Islam as their main reason for packing their bags." Do you guys have ideas on why they wouldn't have simply said, we're frightened or don't like the direction the country is going because of Muslims in the interviews? Also, does anybody know what the Muslim population in North America looks like compared to Dutch and other European countries? Lastly, if this is a pressing problem, why hasn't the Dutch government tried to contain and eradicate the problem?

03-03-2005, 08:54 AM	#17
Relish XXX Confirmed User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: www.adultlabel.com Posts: 4,904	From the NY Times. Of course, there is a call from the Muslim community to cut her head off. "There needs to be much more open discussion of these issues in Europe and in the wider Islamic world. Theo Van Gogh was later executed in the street in Amsterdam. As she begins to pray, the woman looks heavily veiled, showing her eyes only, but her long black chador turns out to be transparent. Beneath it, painted on her chest and stomach, are verses from the Koran. More women appear. A bride is dressed in white lace, but her back is exposed. The Koranic verse that says a man may take his woman in any manner, time or place ordained by God is written on her skin. The images roll on, now showing a woman lying on the ground, her back and legs marked by red traces of a whip. The Koranic verses on her wounded flesh say that those guilty of adultery or sex outside marriage shall be punished with 100 lashes. There are chilling sounds of a cracking whip; there is the haunting beauty of the Arabic calligraphy and soft music. These are scenes from "Submission," a 10-minute film shown on Dutch prime time television, written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a Somali-born refugee, now a member of the Dutch Parliament. Since the English-language film was shown in late August, it has been at the center of a national uproar, which is exactly what the author wanted. Ms. Hirsi Ali, 34, who grew up as a Muslim but has abandoned her faith, said her purpose was not to give offense but to draw attention to what she contends is widespread but hidden violence against Muslim women, even those living in Europe. She turned to the power of images, she said, to focus attention on abuse, incest, forced marriages and the suicides of young immigrant women. Despite her writing and speaking on the subject for several years, she said she felt that the subject remained a public taboo. "Muslims deny it," she said, "and many Dutch are afraid of taking it on, of causing religious tension, of being called racists." The stories of the four women in the film are composites, she says. Critics have called them simplistic, even caricatures. But the images fired up a new debate in the Netherlands on how to modernize or adapt Islam as it expands across Europe. The film has brought new death threats against her. She already has two round-the-clock government bodyguards. In this nation of 16 million people, a million of them Muslim immigrants or their descendants, Ms. Hirsi Ali is part of a small but growing group of women who say they want to spread the message that the Muslim faith can be practiced without what she calls "savage Medieval customs" like genital cutting, beatings or the confinement of women to their homes. Some of those advocates contend that modernization of Islam must come from women, particularly European Muslim women. The film and the photographs taken from it have appeared in Dutch newspapers, magazines and television shows, drawing an outpouring of both praise and outrage. "Of course it's a political pamphlet, that's undeniable," said Theo van Gogh, who directed the film and insisted that he does not see why many Muslims are so shocked. He said he was deliberately cautious, adding that if he had really wanted to shock, the film would have been different. It opens with a prayer, and then the narrator tells stories of four women who ask for God's help to lighten their suffering. According to the narrative, one was forced to marry a man she hates, one was raped and made pregnant by her uncle, one was whipped after she had sexual relations with her boyfriend and one was repeatedly beaten by her husband. The women feel abandoned by God, despite their devotion to him. As a close-up of a battered and bruised face appears, the narrator says: "Oh Allah , most high. You say that men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because you have given one more strength than the other. Yet I feel at least once a week the strength of my husband's fist on my face." The woman who was raped, says she has always turned to "you Allah, covering myself as you wish it. And now that I pray for salvation, you remain silent as the grave I long for." Critics argue that it is not the spoken text, but the writing of Koranic verses on the women's flesh makes the film blasphemous. "There's nothing wrong with what is said, this is reality," said Loubna Berrada, whose family is Moroccan and who is an advocate for women's rights. "But the nudity is wrong. It's too confrontational." But then, she went on to say, talking has not changed anything. It's the whole system, in which women participate, that must change. "The women pass on the oppression to their daughters; they educate their sons," Ms. Berrada said. The avalanche of published letters and articles reacting to the film includes one from Fadoua Bouali, a nurse in an Amsterdam hospital who said she had been shocked by the number of fearful young Muslim women who have surgery to conceal the fact that they are not virgins. "Already men on their wedding days are getting a virgin, stitched up by Jewish, Christian or atheist hands," she told the magazine De Tijd. "Is that what they want?" Carla Rus, a Dutch psychiatrist, said she had worked for 20 years with abused women in shelters, where more than half were Muslims. "Suicide attempts among foreign young women are five time higher than among local women," she said, citing studies. While the debate goes on, so do the attacks on Ms. Hirsi Ali. A rap song, played on some local radio stations, calls for her death. Chat rooms and e-mail messages announce death threats. The police in Rotterdam have just arrested a young Moroccan man whom they charged with sending a death threat to Ms. Hirsi Ali. She says she intends to continue her campaign.She recently demanded in Parliament that the minister of interior order the police to review their definition of murder in cases involving young women. She contends that at least a dozen of the annual killings of Muslim girls in the Netherlands are revenge killings by brothers, fathers or relatives. The police record them as family conflicts, she said. "Police say they want to avoid stigmatizing a group," said Ms. Hirsi Ali. "I say, we have to know the truth." In addition to the film, Ms. Hirsi Ali has published two books of essays on the plight of Muslim women, "The Son Factory" and "The Cage of Virgins." Her next project is another short film: "Submission - Part Two." She said it will feature the men's point of view. " __________________

03-03-2005, 09:04 AM	#18
grumpy Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Holland Posts: 9,870	thats why we moved to Canada. Holland is getting to crowded. But no way we would wanna move to the USA. For so many reasons. __________________ Don't let greediness blur your vision \| You gotta let some shit slide icq - 441-456-888

03-03-2005, 09:52 AM	#22
Fake Nick So Fucking Banned Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: go troll goo! Posts: 7,708

03-03-2005, 09:55 AM	#23
Project-Shadow Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 7,340	The U.K is suffering from the same problems, Islamic people are now allowed to wear full face masks when attending school etc etc. I'm getting the hell out of here A.S.A.P.

03-03-2005, 10:01 AM	#24
Mojiteaux Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 265	It's cowards that leave...

03-03-2005, 10:32 AM	#26
alexg IL4L.com Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Israel - ICQ: 162136565 Posts: 11,287	coming soon in UK, france, and basically the rest of europe __________________ Find fuck buddies in your area!

03-03-2005, 10:47 AM	#27
Nembrionic Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,424	Last count indicates there´s about 1 mln Muslims in The Netherlands. So 1 in 16 is a Muslim. For me muslims wouldn´t be a reason to leave the country though. Not yet at least. But 10 years from now I think yes.(Planning on leaving way before that though)

03-03-2005, 10:58 AM	#29
jp714 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: asia Posts: 32	Well I would hate to see this thread turn to hate! I have lived and worked with muslims : One thing to remember with islam is : Allah provides hey if you spend all day banging your head on the floor he/her better (fuck i asked jesus and he said ) Convert now to my relgixne : buy low sell high lol who gives a shit only the poor rebel (loook it up don't know yor history) So fuck all the Gods , the gods are compassionate (not the people that clame to represent them ) Guess gods need a lot of money an wepons I bow to the only GOD _ sex -drugs- @ whatever music makes your day __________________ ASIAN amature Models

03-03-2005, 11:14 AM	#31
Sneezy Confirmed User Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 450	I know that in Belgium the cars and houses are cheaper then in Holland, so maybe that is why Fake Nick reacted on the figures in the way he did. Talking about Belgium. I've read somewhere that they are gonna vote on the question "should Belgium stay a seperate country or not" wtf? Maybe fake nick can shine a light on this lol About the hummer. Can you agree on the fact that there is still a HUGE price difference even with a stripped one ? (btw I took the price fro the Dutch hummer from autotrader; the new ones on there we're all arround 100k without tax) __________________ no sig 4u

03-03-2005, 11:15 AM	#32
DutchTeenCash I like Dutch Girls Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: dutchteencash.com Posts: 21,684	funny, every month or so this pops up, well all you guys leaving for the states, have fun and dont forget to keep your dutch pass, so youll be able to return in a month or 3, cause everyone thinks the states are NY LA and Miami. Sadly enough theyre not, if you wanna live there, bring some cash, cause life there is double or more as expensive as it is here, plus muslims everywhere If you wanna live in hillbilly county be my guest, but you can do that in holland too, get a converted barn for 10k and be happy... Ive seen many many leave and even more return... holland is the best country imho in europe, what till youre in need of social care, medical care etc and havent got cash, i wouldnt base my opinions on a one sided view... 2 cents __________________ ICQ 16 91 547 - SKYPE dutchteencash bob AT dutchteencash DOT com ... did you see our newest Sweet Natural Girl Priscilla (18)?

03-03-2005, 11:23 AM	#34
Nembrionic Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 2,424	http://www.rtl.nl/(/actueel/rtlnieuw...rland_1100.xml http://www.zqcentral.com/index/news/show/3513 here ya go.

03-03-2005, 11:43 AM	#36
NickB. Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2001 Posts: 8,855	I left holland 5 months ago, it seems that lots of things have changed! I'll find out next Tuesday.... I never experienced anything real bad with moslims living in Holland, just a couple of fights, but that could have happened with dutch guys as well. I have very close moslim friends in Holland, studying law at a university, a cop and 2 restaurant owners, all 100% integrated. Personally I would say it can be a problem in the future.... if the dutch government will not get its acts together real soon.