I think this is a case where they're going to learn you can't say something that nobody see's out in the open as "obscene".

What I mean is, in the days where obscenity laws were passed, VCR's and direct to home sales of porn didnt exist. The fact that the *ONLY* people who will be FORCED to view the material will be 12 Jurors is a useless way to try to prosecute based on obscenity.

If I go to their website and CHOOSE to purchase any video, have it shipped to my home and watch it with a big tub of popcorn, I obviously don't think it's obscene! I think it's something I wanted to watch.

"You" the people are entirely unaffected by my choice of viewing material. You have no say whether or not I should enjoy it or not. I'm not in your house forcing you to stop watching The Bachelorette because it erodes society, or burning your Harlequinn Romance novels because they offend me with their shallow drivel.

I think they're barking up the entirely wrong tree on this one, and I'm fine with that.

BTW: To actually answer the thread question (doh), I wouldnt know if I would call their material "obscene", as I've never choosen to view it. It's sort of moot I think..
I'm pretty sure that the only way to answer that is if I went to a movie theater advertising "entertainment generally acceptable to the public" and I disagreed. Then I have a case I think..

although i would never watch nor buy their videos, a person does have the right to decide what it is they will watch and purchase. i would not sit in judgment of a person's right to choose, freedom of expression or freedom of speech.

it's not as it people are not aware of what type of videos this company produces - hello "extreme" associates!

Oh man, Electronic Arts are going to pick that one up in an instant.

I have never seen the videos. I may sound old fashioned on this, but while I don't think there is anything illegal in the movies, I would not promote them. There is lots of legal stuff I will not touch, for example rough sex videos which I think are just wrong and encourage the kids seeing them to think that it would be good to spit in a woman's face while having sex with her, my :2 cents:

Anybody ever see 60's and 70's porn? The action is the same - bj, fuck, and anal - only the woman is having a good time. In my opinion a lot of the shit made today like ass to mouth is over the line, should not be made, but I guess as long as there is a buck to be made it will get created.

One Person's View
 

I feel many self-proclaimed First Amendment freedom fighters in the adult industry are totally misguided and hide behind the guise of freedom, when in fact, some of what they are presenting is totally reprehensible, and represents indefensible forms of human behavior.

As far as I am concerned, there is nothing artistic, and there are few (if any) freedom of speech issues involved in such things as conning "bums" into maiming or possibly even beating other poor people to death, simply because they signed a consent form and they are paid to do it.

Yet BumFights and other such web sites still exist. I have not seen the EA content, so I am not specifically commenting upon it, however if it is as it has been described on Nightline recently, I might possibly find some of their content objectionable on similar grounds.

There is a difference between simulated and actual behavior. Hollywood, the gaming industry, and others seem to understand this and self-regulate themselves accordingly in most instances, even with regards to simulated behavior.

Fortunately, so do most of the people I have encountered in the adult industry. Even the savage sport of boxing abides by certain rules.

The same cannot be said for some of the most extreme content packaged and sold to miscreants these days by a fringe element within the adult industry (who profess to speak for us all).

At times it seems that the loudest most ardent voices often come from these same people. Of course they, and certainly not most of us, have the most to lose.

I ask, why appeal to the most evil instincts of people, and feed depravity and negativity that robs others of even a shread of humanity or self-worth? It appears to be more about making a buck than standing up for any noble principles.

I try to be tolerant, but I find myself questioning why the actual beating of women (or men), or treating of people in what would otherwise be considered inhumane or criminal ways should be tolerated within the adult industry irregardless of consent forms and cash.

I do not feel you are being a champion of the adult industry when you embark on these ventures. Face it, some in the adult industry are losers and sick people who don't care how much they debase others, and they appear unwilling to take any responsibility or accountabilty for the pain and suffering which they bring upon others, both directly and indirectly no matter how noble they try to make themselves appear.

Believe me, I feel similar ways about the government. I regret, speak out, and take action, against the government in the name of the many foreign people whom have been killed wrongly in the name of freedom, and the many American lives that have been sacrificed in vain merely to profit the ruling elite.

A problem I see is that which the worst offenders within the adult industry are doing is not making anything better, and may possibly contribute to making matters worse for the vast majority of us.

As others have stated, it's very hard for anyone in the adult industry to speak out against such issues without appearing hypocritical. Especially when more conservative elements in this society, and many other societies, consider even the most softcore content that many of us produce to be equally as evil. Still, I am more inclined to trust in the majority as I seek to express my own views and expand the boundaries to that which I feel is acceptable.

It pains me to speak out against some of the acitivities of other producers in the industry. I certainly don't appreciate the ridicule that my being willing to speak out about my feelings on these issues brings forth against me. On many issues, I can say that I am in agreement with them. In some, I must refuse to go along.

Sometimes you have to take a stand against bullies - be they within the government or even within the adult industry (basically extremists on either end). For example, I must say that torturing prisoners is wrong, and I believe I must speak out against racism, and I feel that I have to say no to blatantly misogynistic/degrading acts in the adult industry. Otherwise the bullies win.

The people that want to promote and profit from the worst in the adult industry have honed and are experts at making their case that anything goes - it stands to reason since their business survival depends upon it.

Although often out of little more than selfish self-interest, these same people frequently pose as the greatest enemy of those viewed in possibly an even worse light than themselves - such as people involved in child porn or beastiality. How hypocritical is that? I would say much more than mine.

I refuse to buy into that. I think acceptable lines can be drawn which permit 95%+, or as much as 99% of us, to create responsible erotica.

This is a complex issue, yet in some ways it is simple. Start with the basic principle of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. Sure, the most despicable creatures in society have no moral boundaries. However, that doesn't mean anyone should join them if it goes against their better sense. If anything, they are the ones you should speak out against most.

Settng a mimimum bar for society is the responsibility even for those of us within the adult industry. I'm sure this debate will be waged on so long as there are people willing to put profits before people, and many people on the other side remain silent when confronted by such people. We all have a voice. Democracy is acheived only when people educate themselves, look within themselves, and then speak out and take action on important issues.

A good approach might be to begin by speaking out and promoting the middle ground first. Then, once there is consensus among a strong majority, work at pushing the boundaries out in both directions to include as many people as possible. That is a basic principle of most modern enlightened societies. The biggest problems are caused by fringe elements on either side.

I don't have all of the answers. I simply refuse to be silenced by bullies that represent what I consider to be the worst about the adult industry.

Thank you for hearing out my rather long rant.

ADG Webmaster

Here's the definition of obscenity for US legal purposes:

"For something to be 'obscene' it must be shown that the average person, applying contemporary community standards and viewing the material as a whole, would find (1) that the work appeals predominantly to "prurient" interest; (2) that it depicts or describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way; and (3) that it lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value."

There's no absolute answer as to whether something is obscene, material is deemed obscene only if a jury unanimously agrees that it's obscene, and different juries will rule differently about the same exact material. I haven't seen much of Extreme's material, but from what I have seen, personally I'd find it non-obscene, failing part (2) of the above test.

I'm against that kind of material.

But on the other hand, if the government isn't spending its resources prosecuting over that kind of material they would be prosecuting others for anything else it may deem obscene (ie, a2m, choke fucking, bukkake).

Really, extreme stuff keeps the authorities of everyone else's back.

I'm thinking about emailing a link to this thread to my aunt...she wants ALL OF US thrown in jail for what we do....wouldn't it be fun if she got to decide what we can and can't do in this industry?

My grandmother was the same way...imagine she was in charge of where the boundaries are?

it could be worse...they could be reading the bible...

Nope.

50 Extreme movies

Very interesting discussion. Bump for you guys! :thumbsup

erotica .... ahhhh the good ole days

a shame its gone in so many young minds
and a bigger shame its oft times replaced with humiliation and/or degradation *sigh*

"contemporary community standards".

Can that be applied to, for example, a movie you specifically seek out, purchase, and have shipped in a cardboard box to your home for your own private viewing?

They're going to *force* 12 jurors to view it and expect them to judge YOUR interpretatoin of "artistic"? Whats next, have them eat my LUNCH and tell me if *I* think it tastes good? Idiocy!

I want to view the tv shows, books, magazines and movies that you're viewing in the "privacy" of your own home and judge them please.
Any volunteers?

BTW: I'm only ranting on about how absurd I think the legal challenge itself is. It seems a ridiculous waste of federal money. Go find some law breakers and prosecute them why dont they? :( How about spending the money on securing borders or inspecting cargo containers? bah humbug.

This is about my rights as an adult, my freedom to choose to watch what I want, to purchase this product and enjoy it in the privacy of my own home.

Non-porn television which is super violent and often hardcore in nature, rape, mind fucking, whacked out drug movies are no worse than hardcore porn which feature the same thing, fake rapes, murders, etc. One shows nudity, the other shows nuclear bombs. As an adult if you CHOOSE to watch this type of TV / Porn, then nobody should be allowed to stop you or tell you that you can?t.

As long as EA actors/actress knew about the situations, signed a waver, releases, and all that BS, then no mater how you look at it, they are acting in a movie. It may be distasteful to you, but so what, you are not buying the damn thing.

Obscenity is our community standard. Meaning your neighbors are telling YOU what you can and can?t view. The effects of Obscenity cases go well beyond EA and our little industry. It affects our personal lives, freedoms, and choices.


Just how I look at it.

So, its fine for Hollywood to show the sickest behavior, because the "self regulate"? Its fine for them to show rape and necrophillia becuase they cant see the actual penetration?

Thats crap.

Anything involving Consenting Adults is fine. I may not watch it, I may not have it in my house, but its not my place to say that someone else cannot have it.

You say there may be a line drawn? I dont want a line drawn at all! Why? Who draws the line? Who is to say that it cant be drawn into what I like, etc. The people drawing the line may not like any porn at all. Yes, reasonable adults may set the line at a reasonable place, but I dont believe lots of adults in government are reasonable when it comes to this.

So, reguardless of what I think of Extreme Associates (I dont watch their videos so I cant comment on them) the government should stay out of my private life, and should not tell me what I can and cannot watch to get my rocks off. Consenting Adults should be the only test to see if something is legal or not.

While the crap that Rob shoots is in extremely poor taste, if you look at what's on the internet -- not just porn but the rotten.com type sites and so on -- it's very hard to build a case using Miller as the definitive standard for one big reason -- there's no definition of whether or not the internet is a community unto itself or whether its the area that produced the content, hosts the content, downloads the content or bills for the content that's the community.

Establishing that is the first thing that will have to happen. The dismissal of Rob's case by the judge basically stated that the internet is a community, albeit an electronic one instead of a physical one.

Should be interesting to see what comes of all this, though it will probably take years to be sorted out.

exactly, stacycat... glad to see i'm not the only one in texas who feels this way. as long is all consensual, and no underrage individuals are involved, i could give a flying fuck what turns anyone on... from scat to bloodletting to abusive gagging sessions, its all good if someone likes it, as far as i'm concerned..

As long as they dont lie to the girl and say its just another normal shoot, then fine.

If the girls getting what she asked for, AND PAID FOR IT, who fucking cares???

None of this shit just shows up on someones screen unless theyre looking for it.

This material is for sick bastards. I will never promote this shit.

get bent, commie... go get saved or something.. http://twash.com/iku/leperkiss.gif

I think it should never be considered obscene if everyone is above the age of 18, consenting, and no one is hurt. If those requirements are met and its still enforced its simply a police state.
Duke

Its a slippery slope, because by the logic some people are using, drugs, prostitution, gambling should all be 100% legal.

I really dont know where the line should be drawn.

At one time people thought that horror films like Scream would corrupt our childrean and cause situations like Columbine to happen... If someone wants to buy something and the creation of the content isn't illegal, then the products themselves should not be illegal either.

To answer the original questions: no on all three counts. I find the material distasteful.

However, that doesn't have anything to do with whether it should be legal and/or considered "obscene." I choose not to produce, sell, or watch that kind of content. I wouldn't even think of saying that other people shouldn't.

Think about it: the models know what they're getting into and presumably want to do it, the people producing it similarly know and want what they like, and the people buying it have made the same decision about what they want.

Who the fuck are we, or anyone else, to say "yeah, nobody got hurt, it was all consensual and play-acted, and nobody was forced into it, but *we* don't like it so you shouldn't do it"?

There is enough non-consensual violence in the world that I find it totally absurd that anyone would consider this kind of consensual play-acting to be worthy of rebuke, let alone government regulation and/or prosecution.

Cheers
-b