I am very close to switching BACK to InternetExplorer FROM FireFox - GoFuckYourself.com

leg4 · 02-17-2005, 12:19 PM

I just can't take the small bugs in FireFox anymore!

Argh!!! they are fucking killing my workFlow...

What do you guys think!

Spunky · 02-17-2005, 12:21 PM

It has dramitically reduced my spyware instances...maybe when IE 7 comes out

E.Kant · 02-17-2005, 12:23 PM

for me it works fine ... no spyware and popups and all the activex shit

jt420 · 02-17-2005, 12:25 PM

what bugs are you facing that would make you quit using it. i love firefox.

NickPapageorgio · 02-17-2005, 12:26 PM

Love firefox. I can't imagine using IE again. Did you see the thread with the FF tweaks? Sped mine up quite dramatically.

Tat2Jr · 02-17-2005, 12:26 PM

I don't have anything buggy with my firefox install. Once in a great, great while a page won't work right, but I have the IE View extension so I just right click on the browser page, and choose "open page in IE" and problem is solved. Of course since I don't have any bug issues with Firefox 1.0 I would never change back to IE. I say good riddance.

MickeyG · 02-17-2005, 12:27 PM

so switch, why should we care?

Firefox works great for me, and im estatic over this adblock plugin too.

leg4 · 02-17-2005, 12:28 PM

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

ARGH!!!!!!!!!

2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page!

this is killing my work flow big time and i am considering going back to IE

please help

i love firefox and want to stick with it... but if these bugs/problems aren't solved, i will have to switch-back

broke · 02-17-2005, 12:30 PM

I'm sure firefox is great for people that love to use the mouse, but I rarely take my fingers of the keyboard and don't want to spend months learning new keyboard shortcuts.

I've tried firefox, opera, etc.

Having seven different spyware programs and two AV programs installed... the amount of time they cost me is not worth the switch.

leg4 · 02-17-2005, 04:51 PM

...evenin' bump...

Alex · 02-17-2005, 04:53 PM

Sure, fuck your comp up./ I couldnt care less.

Or stick with somehting that works

DateDoc · 02-17-2005, 04:54 PM

Firefox loads most pages faster for me. I'm even trying out the Thunderbird mail they have instead of Outlook or Outlook Express. Bit of a learning curve figuring out the new tricks but I am happy so far.

Chris · 02-17-2005, 04:55 PM

i am back to IE now

could not handle fire fox anymore

BigPinPin · 02-17-2005, 04:56 PM

I would never switch from firefox back to IE.

Myst · 02-17-2005, 05:00 PM

cant you fucking incomepetent retards go get windows update?

or maybe a firewall, anti virus or antispyware program?

its all freely available to you
if you get spyware installed from IE its cause youre a fucking dipshit

pornstar2pac · 02-17-2005, 05:02 PM

firefox is best, said randy west

dready · 02-17-2005, 05:02 PM

I don't know what you're talking about... go ahead... enjoy the viruses, malwares, etc.

leg4 · 02-17-2005, 05:07 PM

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

ARGH!!!!!!!!!

2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page!

this is killing my work flow big time and i am considering going back to IE

please help

i love firefox and want to stick with it... but if these bugs/problems aren't solved, i will have to switch-back

tungsten · 02-17-2005, 05:08 PM

works fine here and has been for awhile

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myst

cant you fucking incomepetent retards go get windows update?

or maybe a firewall, anti virus or antispyware program?

its all freely available to you
if you get spyware installed from IE its cause youre a fucking dipshit

I don't know how much windows installing you've done, but on at least 3 separate occasions I've seen freshly installed winXP machines infected while attaching to the net to pull updates. It's also difficult to maintain machine cleanliness when there's a new exploit out every other week that gives total machine access... or perhaps you weren't paying attention to the reasons why people switch to firefox to begin with?

Firefox helps ease that burden because it doesn't leave the mac truck sized holes in itself direct to total box 0wnage. When people get on a browser, they want to view pages and/or do my job. They don't want to have to be in security manager mode whenever they turn a computer on, and most of them have lives that are NOT computer-related.

Not that I'd expect someone from Alaberta to understand that concept.

NoCarrier · 02-17-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

I am very close to switching BACK to InternetExplorer FROM FireFox

Vas-y, fais le pour toi!

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

ARGH!!!!!!!!!

Yep... been there, experienced that. According to bugzilla there's a number of minor c+p issues being worked on... Perhaps firefox 1.1 will have it resolved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page!

This one I've never seen... can you give an example of where it happens? Is it reproducable, or just a spurious failure that pops up during day-to-day surfing?

Myst · 02-17-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickholio

I don't know how much windows installing you've done, but on at least 3 separate occasions I've seen freshly installed winXP machines infected while attaching to the net to pull updates. It's also difficult to maintain machine cleanliness when there's a new exploit out every other week that gives total machine access... or perhaps you weren't paying attention to the reasons why people switch to firefox to begin with?

Firefox helps ease that burden because it doesn't leave the mac truck sized holes in itself direct to total box 0wnage. When people get on a browser, they want to view pages and/or do my job. They don't want to have to be in security manager mode whenever they turn a computer on, and most of them have lives that are NOT computer-related.

Not that I'd expect someone from Alaberta to understand that concept.

so.. youre telling me that because u get viruses when just installing windows - that youre gonna use firefox. great logic.

perhaps you should stop being such a dipshit

try slipstreaming sp2 into your install cd, try making an image of your drive after youve just installed updates, try having updates stored on cd or something so you can update after u install windows, try running windows update when you install xp (like it asks you to).

and maybe you dont pay enough attention to security concerns. Theres been just as many firefox exploits as there have been IE ones in recent memory.

nico-t · 02-17-2005, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

I just can't take the small bugs in FireFox anymore!

Argh!!! they are fucking killing my workFlow...

What do you guys think!

i combine firefox and IE.
when i maual submit free sites and galleries i use roboform and a self made javascript form and that just doesnt work right in firefox...so i use IE for that

Wiggles · 02-17-2005, 05:35 PM

i love firefox, have avoided so much crap.

digifan · 02-17-2005, 05:37 PM

I just hate IE and would never use it.

Babagirls · 02-17-2005, 05:39 PM

i build in I.E. but use Netscape for surfing purposes.
building in IE is just less hassle (for me).

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myst

so.. youre telling me that because u get viruses when just installing windows - that youre gonna use firefox. great logic.

perhaps you should stop being such a dipshit

try slipstreaming sp2 into your install cd, try making an image of your drive after youve just installed updates, try having updates stored on cd or something so you can update after u install windows, try running windows update when you install xp (like it asks you to).

and maybe you dont pay enough attention to security concerns. Theres been just as many firefox exploits as there have been IE ones in recent memory.

Pay attention, junior.

Your original quote was:

Quote:

Originally Posted by junior

cant you fucking incomepetent retards go get windows update?

I pointed out that BRAND NEW FRESH INSTALLATIONS CAN BE OWNED INSTANTLY. How do you suggest people with fresh, branded XP discs out of the box slipstream their install when they can't even get on the net to do it, let alone your typical surfer even having the knowledge of how to do it? Your troglodyte existance may revolve around a scan of Bugtraq every 15 minutes, but most people have real lives in the real world.

In case you also missed the second point, people are getting firefox because it's more reliable security-wise than MSIE, the latest phishing exploit vulnerability notwithstanding. The phishing problem would NOT lead to total box ownage, only luring unsuspecting people into going to fake sites (still a major problem, but a totally different issue than having someone take total control of your hardware). The problem was also instantly resolved without need for software update by setting one simple switch in config settings. Perhaps you could show the class how many times boxes have been completely compromised because of a bug in Firefox? Oh, that's right, you can't, 'CUZ IT HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

You love windows. You love MSIE. Your box is as pristine as alaska snow. You may even love sucking the sweat off of Gates' fetid nutsack. Goodie for you. That doesn't make the rest of the world imbiciles because their windows boxes get owned due to pisspoor security in the OS and its extensions by design, no matter how bad your attitude problem wants to make it so.

GatorB · 02-17-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spunky

It has dramitically reduced my spyware instances...maybe when IE 7 comes out

I use IE and have ZERO spyware issues. I properly potect my computer instead of HOPING a browswer will do it. Perhaps you didn't read the news about new FireFox exploits being developed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickPapageorgio

Love firefox. I can't imagine using IE again. Did you see the thread with the FF tweaks? Sped mine up quite dramatically.

Sorry FF has always loaded slow for me and I even tried the tweaks and had no change. If FF works for you fine, but I'll stick with IE. When FF speeds up page load time, allows google toolbar and espn toolbar we'll see.

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

When FF speeds up page load time, allows google toolbar and espn toolbar we'll see.

GoogleBar is here. Dunno about espn.

xsivforce · 02-17-2005, 05:49 PM

No problems with Firefox here...I do not plan to return to IE.

Gottis · 02-17-2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page!

That happens to me as well, hate it. Especially the copy/paste bug.

Head · 02-17-2005, 05:53 PM

You need a more powerful machine!

GatorB · 02-17-2005, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickholio

GoogleBar is here. Dunno about espn.

Thank I'll see how that works. Google just released a beta of their toolbar 3 which I like because it has a kickass spell check.

I've check ESPN a while back and they didn't have a FireFox version though their ESPN motion automatically work in FireFox without having to download it first. So I will give props for that. The video is lesser quality with FF, but oh well.

GatorB · 02-17-2005, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Head

You need a more powerful machine!

Who?????

Antonio · 02-17-2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t

i combine firefox and IE.
when i maual submit free sites and galleries i use roboform and a self made javascript form and that just doesnt work right in firefox...so i use IE for that

Roboform DOES work with Firefox, and so should your Java script.

Firefox is the most retarted browser after IE, it's pathetically slow even after the tweaks.
Maxthon and Opera are better IMO, and the best is and has been for years K-Meleon!!!!!!

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

Quote:

Originally Posted by head

You need a more powerful machine!

Who?????

Sounds like a good excuse as any to go splurge on a bigger box.

I can already hear the justifications to the wife... "Honestly hon, I needed to buy this $4000 7ghz monsterbox so it can run firefox properly. It's more secure!"

rickholio · 02-17-2005, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio

Roboform DOES work with Firefox, and so should your Java script.

Firefox is the most retarted browser after IE, it's pathetically slow even after the tweaks.
Maxthon and Opera are better IMO, and the best is and has been for years K-Meleon!!!!!!

I'd give opera another try if/when it renders pages closer to the way MSIE/Firefox does, compensates for de facto DOM and CSS usage, and handles plug-innable stuff better. I liked what they've done, but reality doesn't always follow spec and Opera is, sadly, one of those browsers that sometimes lets idealism trump pragmatism.

It is very fast, however.

K-Meleon is another gecko engine browser, in what ways is it different from firefox aside from look-and-feel?

gigi · 02-17-2005, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

ARGH!!!!!!!!!

Cut and Paste TIP!

This drove me INSANE at first....THEN, I figured it out. It works fine if you are pasting into a BLANK space......BUT, if you highlight text and then replace with what's in your clipboard it WON'T work. Fix??? Remove ALL text/code from where you want to paste BEFORE you copy/paste. Works every time!

jukeboxfrank · 02-17-2005, 07:11 PM

Way to go firefuck sucks

tony286 · 02-17-2005, 07:29 PM

I dont find firefox that buggy at all , have you written them ?

MrJackMeHoff · 02-17-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leg4

Here are the 2 problems killing me...

1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant!

Yeah ff used to do that for me too sometimes.. Then I got the latest version..

gigi · 02-17-2005, 07:52 PM

Which version? As far as I know there has been only 1 so far....1.0 ....

Rui · 02-18-2005, 06:02 AM

No bugs whatsoever with Firefox 1.0 PR...

Tipsy · 02-18-2005, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GatorB

I use IE and have ZERO spyware issues. I properly potect my computer instead of HOPING a browswer will do it. Perhaps you didn't read the news about new FireFox exploits being developed.

That's exactly it. You DON'T get adware/trojans etc etc if you have half a clue and update when needed and have the security settings set properly, simple as that.

There are reasons to use firefox but exploits isn't one of them. Nobody with half a clue on a PC will get unwated shit installed in IE no matter how loudly they shout otherwise. If you're getting them then you simply have no idea what you're doing.

SGS · 02-18-2005, 06:37 AM

We use both FF and IE. If you do this for a living and don't check things in both FF and IE you could miss something important.

groark · 02-18-2005, 06:45 AM

Have you tried Opera yet?
But firefox is better than Opera imo..

XXXSharonXXX · 02-18-2005, 06:48 AM

IE works fine for me!!!

Quotealex · 02-18-2005, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nico-t

i combine firefox and IE.
when i maual submit free sites and galleries i use roboform and a self made javascript form and that just doesnt work right in firefox...so i use IE for that

I don't about your self-made javascript, but roboform works great with firefox. Go to the roboform site and download the adapter for firefox.

nico-t · 02-18-2005, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonio

Roboform DOES work with Firefox, and so should your Java script.

the javascript (a 'selct and copy' button for a text field with the url etc) doesnt work and the roboform popup does not stay on the foreground when you scrool down the submitpage using the scroll bar.
Just believe me.

02-17-2005, 12:19 PM	#1
leg4 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 4,429	I am very close to switching BACK to InternetExplorer FROM FireFox I just can't take the small bugs in FireFox anymore! Argh!!! they are fucking killing my workFlow... What do you guys think! __________________ >>> Contact me here email me here

02-17-2005, 12:21 PM	#2
Spunky I need a beer Industry Role: Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: ♠ Toiletville ♠ Posts: 133,949	It has dramitically reduced my spyware instances...maybe when IE 7 comes out __________________ *YOUR INFORMATION HERE*

02-17-2005, 12:23 PM	#3
E.Kant Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Philosophy Center Posts: 1,577	for me it works fine ... no spyware and popups and all the activex shit __________________ FILL your TUBE SITE with thousands of videos within a few days! Content delivery with Tags, Description, Pornstar Name, and niche! For example: Start your Asian Porn Tube with 10,000 videos in only 10 days! Contact me: ICQ 461 531 88

02-17-2005, 12:25 PM	#4
jt420 Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: in the foothills of the mind. ICQ: 279561428 Posts: 2,479	what bugs are you facing that would make you quit using it. i love firefox. __________________ I made my fortune selling pubic wigs! New program Merkin Money coming soon!

02-17-2005, 12:26 PM	#5
NickPapageorgio Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: NC Posts: 8,323	Love firefox. I can't imagine using IE again. Did you see the thread with the FF tweaks? Sped mine up quite dramatically. __________________

02-17-2005, 12:26 PM	#6
Tat2Jr Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Sunny California Posts: 4,882	I don't have anything buggy with my firefox install. Once in a great, great while a page won't work right, but I have the IE View extension so I just right click on the browser page, and choose "open page in IE" and problem is solved. Of course since I don't have any bug issues with Firefox 1.0 I would never change back to IE. I say good riddance. __________________ NICHE MONEY >> Ass Worship • Panties • Solo Teen • Pantyhose Serving up exclusive fetish sites since 1997!

02-17-2005, 12:27 PM	#7
MickeyG Confirmed User Join Date: May 2004 Location: South Florida Posts: 4,134	so switch, why should we care? Firefox works great for me, and im estatic over this adblock plugin too.

02-17-2005, 12:28 PM	#8
leg4 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 4,429	Here are the 2 problems killing me... 1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant! ARGH!!!!!!!!! 2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page! this is killing my work flow big time and i am considering going back to IE please help i love firefox and want to stick with it... but if these bugs/problems aren't solved, i will have to switch-back __________________ >>> Contact me here email me here

02-17-2005, 12:30 PM	#9
broke Confirmed User Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Someplace Windy Posts: 4,501	I'm sure firefox is great for people that love to use the mouse, but I rarely take my fingers of the keyboard and don't want to spend months learning new keyboard shortcuts. I've tried firefox, opera, etc. Having seven different spyware programs and two AV programs installed... the amount of time they cost me is not worth the switch.

02-17-2005, 04:51 PM	#10
leg4 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 4,429	...evenin' bump... __________________ >>> Contact me here email me here

02-17-2005, 04:53 PM	#11
Alex So Fucking Banned (YEA!!) Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 10,963	Sure, fuck your comp up./ I couldnt care less. Or stick with somehting that works __________________ Care about me? Who? Me! Who?

02-17-2005, 04:54 PM	#12
DateDoc Outside looking in. Industry Role: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: To Hell You Ride Posts: 14,243	Firefox loads most pages faster for me. I'm even trying out the Thunderbird mail they have instead of Outlook or Outlook Express. Bit of a learning curve figuring out the new tricks but I am happy so far. __________________

02-17-2005, 04:55 PM	#13
Chris Too lazy to set a custom title Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: icq: 71462500 Skype: Jupzchris Posts: 27,880	i am back to IE now could not handle fire fox anymore __________________ [email protected]

02-17-2005, 04:56 PM	#14
BigPinPin Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 894	I would never switch from firefox back to IE.

02-17-2005, 05:00 PM	#15
Myst Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 4,707	cant you fucking incomepetent retards go get windows update? or maybe a firewall, anti virus or antispyware program? its all freely available to you if you get spyware installed from IE its cause youre a fucking dipshit __________________ ICQ: 298-523-037

02-17-2005, 05:02 PM	#16
pornstar2pac Omaha Hi/Lo Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 17,380	firefox is best, said randy west __________________ Trump haters gonna hate. that's all they can do

02-17-2005, 05:02 PM	#17
dready Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 5,247	I don't know what you're talking about... go ahead... enjoy the viruses, malwares, etc. __________________ ICQ: 91139591

02-17-2005, 05:07 PM	#18
leg4 Confirmed User Join Date: May 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 4,429	Here are the 2 problems killing me... 1) the cut/paste crappy bug... sometimes u can cut and paste text in and out of firefox... sometimes U cant! ARGH!!!!!!!!! 2) even after clearing the cache... and hitting reload---sometimes firefox does NOT load the current page! this is killing my work flow big time and i am considering going back to IE please help i love firefox and want to stick with it... but if these bugs/problems aren't solved, i will have to switch-back __________________ >>> Contact me here email me here

02-17-2005, 05:08 PM	#19
tungsten Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 10,579	works fine here and has been for awhile __________________ VOYEUR /HOMEMADE, HENTAI / CARTOON, Reality, Amateur, Shemale, Hardcore, Cuckold, Celebrity, Retro/Vintage, ect...ALL OUR SITES >> Unbelievable Ratio \| High % of Rebills \| Bi-Monthly Payments (also to E-Passporte) Ton's of EXCLUSIVE Free content & FHG's \|=> GREAT REVENUE $$$ GUARANTEED!

02-17-2005, 05:35 PM	#25
Wiggles Too lazy to set a custom title Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 14,423	i love firefox, have avoided so much crap. __________________ no sig

02-17-2005, 05:37 PM	#26
digifan The Profiler Industry Role: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: ICQ 76281726 and I'm female Posts: 14,618	I just hate IE and would never use it. __________________ [email protected] Webair Rocks

02-17-2005, 05:39 PM	#27
Babagirls Text Writer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 18,812	i build in I.E. but use Netscape for surfing purposes. building in IE is just less hassle (for me). __________________ Need a Text Writer? Blogs\|Reviews\|Descriptions\|Paysites\|TGP's\|Stories ICQ: 397892500

02-17-2005, 05:49 PM	#31
xsivforce Confirmed User Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 251	No problems with Firefox here...I do not plan to return to IE. __________________ ICQ: 158-293-362 TopBustyGirls.com \| TBG Topsite List \| Poker Forums \| Stoned Forums

02-17-2005, 05:53 PM	#33
Head Confirmed User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Starship Enterprise Posts: 8,278	You need a more powerful machine! __________________

02-17-2005, 07:11 PM	#40
jukeboxfrank Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: www.jenniferworthington.com Posts: 1,207	Way to go firefuck sucks __________________ ICQ= 231-182-592

02-17-2005, 07:29 PM	#41
tony286 lurker Industry Role: Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: atlanta Posts: 57,021	I dont find firefox that buggy at all , have you written them ?

02-17-2005, 07:52 PM	#43
gigi Confirmed User Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada Posts: 691	Which version? As far as I know there has been only 1 so far....1.0 .... __________________ eMail ICQ: 32862272 Last edited by gigi; 02-17-2005 at 07:54 PM..

02-18-2005, 06:02 AM	#44
Rui web Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: On icq: 85-483-060 Posts: 9,533	No bugs whatsoever with Firefox 1.0 PR...

02-18-2005, 06:37 AM	#46
SGS Confirmed User Industry Role: Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mallorca - Nottingham Posts: 5,176	We use both FF and IE. If you do this for a living and don't check things in both FF and IE you could miss something important. __________________ See sig...

02-18-2005, 06:45 AM	#47
groark So Fucking Banned Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Germany Posts: 1,966	Have you tried Opera yet? But firefox is better than Opera imo..

02-18-2005, 06:48 AM	#48
XXXSharonXXX Confirmed User Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 159	IE works fine for me!!! __________________ Adult Dating Community The Ultimate XXX Dating Affiliate Program is FINALLY Here!!!