dcortez

Until now, the 'law' has been a (good and bad) method of keeping adult industry content within some fuzzy zone of what might be generally accepted by various communities. It's far from perfect and laced with side-effects rooted in political agendas, but some of the hardfast rules relating to CP, and niches which go 'way too far' actually make sense (to enough of us).

As adult entertainment moves towards securing it's legitimate place in our culture (good for all of us), there is a growing need to ensure that the industry as a whole takes stewardship and responsibility for its participants.

Rather than relying on laws (which are generally made up by those who know little about our industry and operate on a contrary agenda), I propose we establish:

Adult Industry Best Practices Guidelines

... developed by our industry, enforced, and maintained by our industry.

ASACP (a great initiative and organization) offers a Best Practices document, but it is CP-centric and does not address all the issues which relate to the products and conduct of the adult industry.

This is NOT about censorship - this is about PEER REVIEW.

This is NOT about diluting explicit sexuality - if anything, by demonstrating a socially responsible aproach to providing sexual theme entertainment, the 'evil sterotypes' often used to generalize us by those with contrary interests, will lose their effectiveness in signing up supporters.

This is NOT about forming unions or collecting fees for inefficient middle management - this is about distilling what the adult industry entails now, articulating it, assuming a considered and deliberate posture with respect it, promoting, maintaining, and defending it.

Without this, we may find it difficult to move up to the next level and truly be at par with any other legitimate industry. With a peer managed approach, we would be able to lobby WITH CREDIBILITY for or against anything which may impact our success (laws, social perceptions, equality in community access, etc.).

Recently, to my thinking, and apparently to the views of many others, there have been instances of (technically) 'legal' content production and promotion, which send a very bad message about the rest of us.

Some of this 'legal' content which is seriously tainting our industry involves:

- Extreme degradation of women

- Violence against women (choking, slapping) in a sexual context

- Explicit vomiting induced by forced oral sex

The fact that the aforementioned content MIGHT be legal and is apparently 'backed up' by consent and paperwork is IRRELEVANT.

I do NOT want this content associated with our industry.

Safe, sane, and consentual extreme sexuality is fine by me, but the content I am referring to does not even come close to instilling that sense.

It seriously hurts any progress we have made in establishing ourselves as a responsible industry. It sends a bad message to the communities we do business with and within.

With a set of Adult Industry Best Practices Guidelines, it would be easier to deal with harmful agents such as this.

CC Processor which observed the Adult Industry Best Practices Guidelines as part of their TOS, would prohibit or shut down offenders.

They are ALREADY doing this with respect to CP, scat, and beastiality. For the most part, I rarely hear anyone in this industry complaining that they cannot produce content for those themes.

Some issues may be too gray to define as unacceptable, but to my thinking, the ones I listed earlier are not that difficult to condemn by enough of our peers.

1) What are your thoughts on this?

2) Would you support the establishment of Adult Industry Best Practices Guidelines.

Thanks,
-Dino

Shap

Hi Dino I totally agree however you are missing a huge part of the problem, content isn't the only issue. Sure the models are getting fucked and abused but what about our surfers? They are getting the real deal. Dialers. Spyware. Toolbars. Unethical Billing. If we as an industry are too greedy to even treat our clients fairly and with respect then how can we expect to self regulate?

dcortez

Hi Shap,

Thanks for your comments. Let's add those items to the list!

I agree that content is only one facet of how perception of ethics relate to our industry.

I'm hoping we will have a good discussion about this! At the end of this round, let's see if we get a better handle on who stands where and a good checklist of issues which could help form our guidelines.

-Dino

DeanCapture

Great point Shap

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Some people still do not understand the Internet.

Thinking that it is a medium that can be controlled and harnessed.
How fucken idiotic.

Though the stand is valiant it is in vane.

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pornRefinery

Maybe it is time for AFFILIATE PROGRAMS to only accept affiliates whose websites also fully comply with ASACP's best practices.

dcortez

I don't make that assumption about all of us.

For those who already observe self-regulated ethics, formalizing our collective posture is a natural evolution.

For those who have been assaulting surfers and workers with every trick in the book, your 'pirate days' are over. You can grow up and enjoy the opportunities unfolding as mainstream weaves adult culture in - or find your own place outside the adult industry 'city limits' (stay in the shadows if you like).

-Dino

dcortez

Some don't understand 'peer review'.

Critical comment and guidelines within industry are NOT censorship and generally have a positive impact on that industry.

-Dino

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

lol...

Look maybe Vegas turned into Disney Land but the same people are there.
The internet turning into MTV aint going to happen either.

"Peer Review" sounds rather hawkish if not out right draconian.

How did Princess Liah put it to Darth Vader?
"The more you tighten your grasp the more systems will slip through your fingers."

The inherent problem with your equation is demand. The audience is loking for anything and everything will pay most anything to see it. Legal or not its an aspect of the internet that will always exhist and the more money within a given niche even if illegal the more players will move in. Thats life, thats how it is and always will be.

And do not even think for a second to put the processor's on the "Higher" ground mark! Thats a joke. History dictates that processor's will take in money where ever it is at.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Ya might not like what I have to say but those are the facts.

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dcortez

I believe you are mistaken.

There are topics/themes which are legal (in North America), but currently NOT permitted by most processors for 'corporate policy/TOS' reasons.

Further, historically, some processors have done quite a bit of 'housecleaning' when the TOSs were updated with the financial industry (not law) driven rules.

With these verifiable facts in mind, it stands to reason that an ethical CC Processor would respect credible industry guidelines.

-Dino

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Processors have gone to the grave sometimes just for a take.
The amount is always negotiable. For every "Ethical" processor there are 5 others in the shadow/gray line.
Look at history.
Look at the present. Hell even 3 years ago the Teen Niche, as an example has exploded, though it was disdained it still busted out making money, huge amounts of money. All it took was someone to balls out ligitamise there purpose and show the path to cash. Now its just "Teen Content" to some of the newbs but the bar of acceptability is constantly lowering.

Killing out CP has not happened and it wont happen. I am seriously opposed to CP its an atrocity but there are those out there that capitalise on selling the CP concept Legitamatly and the truth is even now The webmaster community accepts it without question.

So we can look at today with Demeaning porn, its "Simulated!" and it caters well to the audience and webmasters are clutching it.
Now you can stand there and cry to your hearts content that its sick but when webmasters are collecting checks your preaching to the quire on a very small soap box.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Also on a side note I see the Canadians gathering around pacing on the American Credit Card pool trying to dictate what American Business can and should sell. The over sea's trend has just begun and in the process the only people that are going to loose are the American based companies and webmasters.

So essentially you foriegners are fucking up everything from Design to content production and now trying to dictate whats "Proper" for American credit card holders.
What a fucken joke. If Americans are not going to make money on the homeland why should it be made easier for everyone else?

Fuck that...
Its our fucken credit card pool not foriegners. We pay our taxes and at every front foriegn interests are suffocating the American Adult industry and for the most part abusing our customers. Think about that some while trying to dictate what is proper for production and our consumers that American business should rightfully contract with while foriegn interests grab up the money for themselves.

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dcortez

To address your specific comments:

As an example for purposes of discussion, if a petite young model of legal age was groomed and presented realistically in a 'fantasty' CP forced sexual abuse scene, where all the players were of legal age, consenting, with proper IDs, would you support it?

Would you oppose it?

Why or why not?

In Canada, just the suggestion of CP (implicit or explicit), regardless of the age of models is a criminal offense. I support this. Protecting minors from exploitation is as important as not 'breeding' that fantasy.

Letting the libido loose on a variety of niches is one thing, but advocating the derivation of pleasure from the witnessing of sexual and physical abuse shares more of the harmful undertones which makes CP so easy to condemn universally - whether it is 'real' or 'simulated'.

-Dino

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

Dude your missing my point.

Your mixing Morals with Money.
Thats Newb mistake number one on the Internet.

Trying to figure out where I stand ya can ask all the older generations of adult webmasters, I have operated for most of them at one point or another. They do not even know where I stand. I stand to make money in this business and Morality has gone way the fuck out the window to compete.

I do not sell anything "Illegal" I do not sell anything "Legal" either and like most webmasters I cash my checks while maintaining the ability to look in the mirror and be proud. Thats all that matters.

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tony286

40% of adult websites are from overseas ,I think trying to get everyone on the same page is like herding cats. Also there is too much greed and no longterm thinking . Also I dont respect a org that backs .xxx domains, that was very irresponsible and the easy way. The road less traveled would be stopping graphic spam and teaching parents the internet is not a harmless babysitter like the vcr. Chatrooms are more dangerious to children than pictures of tits.THey should be attacking that if they really want to protect children. Also the guidelines are nice but the extremes who are against porn are against all of it from playboy to extreme assocs they see it as all the same.

sandman!

You live in a deam world what your looking for will never happen if 90% os programs agreed then the other 10% of programs would get a huge influx of webmasters that ran thier biz like they want to not like someone told them to.
In a dream world your idea works in reality it does not.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

"You live in a deam world what your looking for will never happen if 90% os programs agreed then the other 10% of programs would get a huge influx of webmasters that ran thier biz like they want to not like someone told them to.
In a dream world your idea works in reality it does not." - Sandman

All I see is foriegners strangling American Business.
I said it when the XXX thing came along to. Some forign twat tried to lock us into XXX domains and all it would have done is allow foriegners to push American card holders to there sites cutting American Adult business.

Thats all this crap is, thats what this shit comes down to.

Ya think Foriegners feeding on American card holders would stop? Hell no it would grow even more rampant. Ya think some silly organisation will run down all the foriegn companies and people slamming our credit card holders and abusing them? Hell no!
So I see no reason to cut any tool American Adult Business has now.

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AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

ASACP if you want a job go chase down the foriegners fucking with our American Card holders, cuz it is not AMERICAN business that is fucking up this industry.

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suesheboy

I agree 100%.

Fuck the demand.

Bad content gives us a bad name and pulls down shit on all of us.

Slapping, choking and other mean cruel shit is wrong and you are a schmuck if you promote or create that crap.

Money is not everything.

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flashfire

I can agree with that but you cant really police the internet

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

"Some of this 'legal' content which is seriously tainting our industry involves:

- Extreme degradation of women

- Violence against women (choking, slapping) in a sexual context

- Explicit vomiting induced by forced oral sex"

Yeah yet on American Mainstream TV we got people drinking raw sewage, drinking cattle blood and eating raw organs...
Puking is normal.
Ya think cuz sex is thrown into it there should be some sort of BAR?
Your lack of faith is disturbing.

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dcortez

Good point.

I did not take vast cultural (or legal) differences into account (although most of the specific issues I'm addressing seem to be universally valued).

Agreed. A much stronger initiative is required to have parents assume their rightful responsibilities (to protect their children by ensure adequate filtering is in place) rather than trying to rid the globe of anything that could possibly be offensive.

I disagree with this as a generality. Yup, some 'right-leaning' folks might just lump us 'pornographers' all into the same bucket, but that does not give due credit to those who are more circumspect about this.

I've talked to many intelligent folks (younger and older) who are NOT 'moralists' per se, but do make distinctions between the pursuit of wild sexuallity and blatent socially wreckless themes, and make consumer choices based on those differences.

I believe it would be a mistake to assume that because a lot of narrow minded people don't care about the differences when characterising the 'porn industry' that the fiscal bottom line is not affected by pro actively asserting social responsibility and freedom to explore sexuality.

Again, my issues are specific and I'm surprised at how many are willing to 'look the other way' when it comes to:

- Violence against women in a sexual context - specifically slapping of the face, choking.

- Explicit vomiting induced by extreme oral sex

Am I really being such a (censoring) prude by being able to easily throw those topics clearly outside of acceptable content?

-Dino

baddog

I think it scares me that you are quoting Princess Liah to make a point

AlienQ - BANNED FOR LIFE

I slipped in Darth Vader to Did ya see that?

Awe shit this is fun...

Oh well.

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killshot

I think an organization like this that people can choose to join would be good.

However, I do support the right of people to produce extreme content no matter how much i despise it. My main complaint is that it is so easy for kids view it and there are no warnings telling them its all a fantasy between consenting adults.

It took me months to convince a friend of mine that Bangbus was all staged... And he is an adult... what are kids supposed think?

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fl_prn_str

There will never be a consolidated place where they can dictate content regs outside of each countries own law. What may be appropriate by European standards may be technically unlawful by US standards. It would be nice if they could have a UN of porn but that will never happen. It is up to the industry to keep it self regulative something like the MPAA for legitimate cinema or the ESRB for video games.

baddog

Makes me almost wish I had seen one of those Star Trek (or Star Wars) flicks so I knew what you were talking about.

baddog

I remember when Bangbus first came out. I actually had webmasters contacting me asking what law enforcement agency they should contact

baddog

You guys can just pay me, and I will be the final judge of what is right and wrong.

dcortez

Thank-you. Nice to see that someone else is not conflicted about trimming some of the crap from this business.

It sure looks like we're in a minority though.

A few 'it would be nice' comments followed by 'it will never happen' is very discouraging.

-Dino

dcortez

Agreed.

But, it does not seem that anyone here is interested in self-regulation for the adult industry. There seems to be a preference to be governed by laws over industry-managed principles.

-Dino

Gunni

Hehehe, all I see is you complaining about foreigners
When I started 90% of my income was from America, now it is actually 55% America, 45% Europe. And I know many webmasters that actually have more European customers than America.
Maybe you should tap the European market and not just focus on one thing.

Regarding the post, very bad idea! Who the fuck are you to say what two consenting adults can and can't do?
Ok, let's ban all BDSM as well, what about female domination? That would be degrading to men and there for should not be allowed right?

Pornographer in conflict with him self and what he does is all I see...

dcortez

I have no problem with BDSM or Femdom or other extreme explicit acts. There are many wonderful examples of these themes which do not promote a unilateral disrespect or violence against someone.

Responsible BDSM involves a consentual exchange of power and that is PART of the theme (not kept in the out takes).

When the implicit fantasy is about choking and slapping a woman or forcing her to vomit through extreme oral sex, this is not promoting a healthy social or sexual exchange.

It may technically be backed up with 'off scene' consent and legal paperwork but it propogates an ideology which is harmful to society.

I'm not conflicted at all.

I don't object to an outrageously explicit extreme BDSM session done 'right' where there is a clear sense that this was a hot session involving consentual participants who chose to exchange power over one another. There is a beginning, middle and end to the session which packages it up. The consent and exchange is a vital part of the 'fantasy'.

But when I see something which is intentionally presented as peeping into the act of a man beating and choking a woman and then forcing her to vomit for his pleasure, I don't leave that experience with the same sense of closure. Instead, I want to know who that guy is and make sure he stays clear out of my community (just like I would a ped) - he's a (socially) sick fuck and unlike the kinky couple (in my earlier example) which pushes the BDSM envelope (but it's OBVIOUS that it is a mutually consentual experience), the woman-beater leaves a troubling sense.

BTW, pointing out examples of mainstream violence is irrelevent because I have the same issues with this type of violence whether the actors are clothed, having sex, or not.

-Dino

Gunni

Regarding that specific video, it was pretty clear to me that it was consentual, the woman even smiled when he spat at her.
Gagging or puking may very well be something she enjoys, if she wants to be humiliated and treated badly it is her choice.
As long as there are two or more consenting adults involved, then I don't care if they do it under the covers with the lights out, or eat eachothers feces. It may very well be sick and wrong to most of us, but that doesn't give us the right to shout bloody murder when we see it.

Just like some people might take great offence seeing a video of people doing it under the covers, they do not have the right to ban other people to enjoy it.

The bottom line is CONSENTING ADULTS, how can you justify banning someone to do something when it doesn't involve going against another persons rights?

sean416

lol. you gotta be joking?

Well, what if im offended by all facial porn? It demeans women and makes them look like sex objects. I dont want it to be apart of this industry.

What you're saying is subjective, and if you want to get on some high moral horse and look down upon others for producing legal content... then I suggest you find another industry to attatch yourself to. This isn't for you.

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Grapesoda

the industry will never self regulate. too many wild cards, too much creepy agenda. as a shooter in the biz I'm very close to what goes on as compared to the 'webmaster/site-owners/affiliates program guys". I talk with the girls, I talk with the boys, I read the post on here an other boards. porn is not about eroticism, it's about misogyny. make no mistake about that at all. I see the phrase "fuckin bitch" several times a day.

I was talking with some gay guys tonight about photo layouts. I was very surprised to see that the established gay magazines don't show gapping spreads. I was told that men don't like this and that if ya think about it on one level the gapping spreads in hetro porn are only to humiliates the woman. think about that for a minute. you would think that men being visual and that gay men being well . . . . men, would want all the stuff that the straight men want as a visual reference to erotica. not true at all, the gay sm crowd is a seperate indentity and not really affiliated with the main stream gay world, however it seems to me the hetro porn is about the humiliation and degradtion of woman.

as a shooter I'm seeing stuff to meet my client needs that I never even conceived of. I actually like woman as people and don't find it arousing at all to watch a woman get fucked in the mouth till she pukes. that's pure violence. remember rape is not about sex, it's about violence.

Major (Tom)

Rape is also about the victim, male or female not consenting.
As I say often, football and boxing is violent. Its controlled violence. As is extreme porn.
Cheers
DUke

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jayeff

The focus on content of the initial post in this thread is misguided. As someone else has pointed out, porn is not erotica (although some erotica is sold as porn). Porn is about degradation and that reality is what generates most of the opposition to it. Putting aside how unlikely it is we could agree, let alone police, where to draw the lines, I don't believe we can ever make porn acceptable to those who actively oppose it.

"Shap" is much more on target, as should be obvious if you consider that - notwithstanding the proposed 2257 changes - all the pressure in recent years has come from Visa, the FTC and other people concerned mainly with how the surfer is treated. In any case it should be good business sense to stop regarding our customers as if they are disposable and in infinite supply. But it is almost as naive to hope we might change that side of our business as were the ideas expressed in the first post.

What most of us ignore, at least in public discussions, is that the biggest and longest-established sponsors are almost all guilty of the short-term thinking that lack of respect for the surfer represents. The most popular business model in our industry essentially relies on catching the surfer unawares in one way or another, rather than on straightforwardly convincing him to buy and then delivering what was promised. So long as this is the case, there really isn't a whole lot for the rest of us to talk about.

Rorschach

blah blah fucking blah

i couldn't care less about exploitation, i just want my motherfucking money

Der Schleicher

you have a point dcortez, but how and where do you draw the line?

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ronbotx

Sadly many adult webmasters have thrown away the ethics, and "best practices" guidlines.

The mantra here is make money with any dirty trick you can as long as it doesn't land you in jail.....

Major (Tom)

good point

Duke

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Kevsh

I agree 100%. But would this be better suited to a regulatory commish for surfers instead of blending it all into one?