Guess again.

Homegrown Video measures its retention in YEARS, not months.

Amateurs are just smarter about what is real amateur and what is fake. When you deliver what they are looking for then they stay around for ever...

"Homegrown Video is the longest running series in the history of porn" - Newsweek

I agree FAR-L, different retentions for different business models and application of site content & how a site is designed makes a HUGE difference.

Cookie cutter, paste together paysites operating off a business model from 1996, is gonna leak business and get themselves retired early from the business.

oh and we can offer revshare as well... but if we went to an all revshare model we would probably loose around 80%+ of our traffic...

this is why if you can grasp the math on a pps model you can get tons more traffic with which you can make a whole lot more $$$ :)

I want the money up front.. i'm afraid of what could happen.. look at i bill.. etc

again.. always acceptions to the rules... as I don't doubt your business.. but again.. why leave all of that money on the table.. if you have proven years of retention.. why not flood your program with thousands of joins.. make mulitmillions.. and retire???

I am so damn happy to see you telling it like it is again without having to filter the truth!

Happy new year!

100% respect and please forgive me for being such a thorn....

Gregtx: Let me respond to this and your other post...

First of all... there is not some sort of special numbers mojo that people need to know in order to run a pps and there is not some sort of lack of knowledge required to be a successful revshare... if there is make sure to tell Lightspeed he might want to pack up his bags and go home.

I have seen the extreme inadequacies of PPS first hand. I know many of the companies that are on the boards acting like it is the greatest thing since sliced bread are not doing well financially today yet they cling to the notion that PPS will somehow return them to their former glory. It is not going to happen.

The numbers just are not there. I know how to convert traffic. I know what upsells do or don't work. I have great conversions and outstanding retention. There is nothing so incomprehensible about PPS. It is all about the numbers, and the most important is the bottom line. Do I want thousands of joins that put me under due to chargebacks and other inherent problems like negative cash flow? No.

We are all about slow and steady wins the race. We are doing very well. We started the year with having to maintain a site with thousands of members that we were NOT getting paid on. We still kept those members happy while we relaunched. And we are doing better now in less than a year than we did in almost 5 years with someone who claims to be the best pps out there.

2005 will be the year when the smoke from all the hot air clears and people look at what is really going to make them the most money.

(Remember... I am not a revshare fan either so don't typecast me that way)

Finally... why would I want to retire? I love my job!

Then why doesn't this simple gfy poll reflect that.

I totally dissagree and we have just about every model and I speak to other program owners with models we don't have and they all say the same 2 months manybe 3 on an average of cousre you will always have people who forget or stick around longer.

Oh really so if I have your content in my members section I will retain for years?

Wait I do have your content you must have the good stuff on the top shelf.

Just busting balls nothing personal.

I haven't read the rest of the responses but I'd have to agee this this! This is 100% true. Every now and then I get the "urge" to surf and I can easily go to any MAJOR tgp and rub out out a few times for free. I've seen a MAJOR difference and I've been in this game for 5yrs with exclusive. I've got other sites which I won't speak about here, but for the most part it's webmasters (yes us), giving away fucking 10minute and 20sec mpg/mmv for a sale. It's not like it was

what a crock - talking about retention and free porn. the guy has joined the site, he's proven he's not a free porn leech. if he books out it's because the site sucked or he downloaded everything and he's off to the next site to do the same. trials should go the fuck away, we need to re-educate surfers, set new ground rules - at least get 25 bucks out of them. So the guys who go from site to site with their downloaders at least return a profit to everybody.

free porn has zip to do with retention, the guy already knows there is lots of free porn out there, he's looking to find either better stuff or less hassle getting at it. it does affect the total number of joins though. and the number of joins are down, if they are indeed down and nobody has confirmed this, the pie is probably bigger but the numbe of slices just keeps growning and growing , because of big affiliate programs poisoning surfers with scams and shitty paysites for years. Talk to a guy on the street some day or the guy sitting next to you in the bar about porn paysites. Odds are he'll tell you about how he was fucked over or a friend or cousin was or 'I can get all the porn I need for free'.

retention is down because the surfers are smarter and the number of choices for them to join good quality paysites has mushroomed.

i really wish the credit card processors would make this kind of data available, they don't need to identify the sites/programs - but it would be nice to see these figures broken down according to niche, exclusive vs licensed content, amount of content, etc

I sell exclusive content but I am honest, I don't claim exclusive content is some magic bullet. Exclusive content matters to many small and medium webmasters these days, they respond to it - it allows some small people to be quite successful - nothing like a big affiliate program - but a one or two guy operation can make nice livings. Take a look at FTVGirls, AllInternal, the single girl site successes - lots of today's webmasters come into this biz now with alot of experience as porn surfers, they care more about the sites they promote than the people who got into the biz betwee, 97-2000.

it is depressing, even the best sites out there are between 2 and 3 months retention - maybe a few get above 3.

not really good news for anybody, big affiliate programs or small operators, or affiliates.

one thing i'd like to know is the number of returning members the high quality exclusive content sites get. nobody ever talks about the 'returnees' - the guys who join a site, like it for a few months, cancel then a few months down the road type it in and join again.

i really don't think there's a site out there i'd join - and that worries me, cuz i don't consider myself much different than the average surfer. there's just too much porn period - it dilutes everything.

50 months

Okay, this is only a poll with no guarantee of accuracy. But it's interesting that it suggests the exact same (very short) retention that most were citing back on the YNot board during a long thread on a similar topic back in '97 (if memory serves).

Interesting too that most people suggest "keeping the surfers happy" as the solution, yet there is only a very small number more "quality" sites among the well-known sponsors than there were 7 years ago. In the meantime there have been some sponsors who have proved that you can retain members, grow big doing so, and keep your affiliates happy. So why do most sponsors still insist on churning through members as if there is an infinite supply?

Part of the reason is probably habit: for many it is the only model of which they have any experience. But it is also still the route of choice for most start-up programs which aspire to any kind of large-scale exposure. And this is despite the extra risk, the extra start-up capital that is needed, etc., etc.

In some cases it may be attitude. I remember the glee with which some webmasters would greet the latest popup or warp code that Andy Dunn published in his Trix. I guess that for many, running a totally straight program just isn't very appealing.

Unless most are blindly following the herd, most apparently believe that the PPS model (with all that implies) is potentially the most profitable. Perhaps so, although I have always felt there is something bizarre about the notion that there is more money to be made from running surfers through the hoops than from simply delivering what they want.

Whatever the truth of that, a well-run PPS program can certainly deliver cash faster to both sponsors and their affiliates. But in the end does this model really generate more money than a solid recurring program such as Karups or Scoreland? And even if yes, for how long is this model sustainable? Some sponsors have enjoyed close to a decade already, but with all the changes in the market - including the tightening of card processors' scrubbing procedures and the slowing of Internet take-up from countries acceptable to the processors - can this model survive another 10 years?

Or is PPS the model of choice just because it is easier to mislead affiliates? I'm damn sure the cost per member is climbing steadily, despite reductions in content and hosting expenses, and I suspect prices are about as high as they can be without further increases becoming counter productive. Which makes the affiliates' piece of the pie about the only way sponsors can make up any shortfalls. Since we aren't generally being squeezed openly, one wonders - for example - whether the lower conversion rates many are complaining of, are simply a result of increased competition and cynical surfers, etc., or whether - at least in part - they reflect manipulation going on behind the scenes.

i just started a Smoking fetish paysite.... i hope it goes good for me :2 cents: :thumbsup
check it out in my sig

before you stared it I hope you have lots of smoking traffic

don't know if it really matters.. it's pretty late so this thread is probably going to die.. 2-3 mo's is where it's at for me as well.. i've talked to a lot of people and they are the same.. this poll says it all...

my take is that the exclusive content with HOT girls only matters on the front end.. hot girls definitely convert better than ugly girls.. I know some people get so used to looking at porn that they don't realize that from the surfer's perspective, hot girls matter a lot.. when I look at girls, unless I'm 'trying' to think like a surfer, I just see some naked chick like tens of thousands of others i've seen..

no avg joe porn surfer is going to pay $40/mo for something... they only do it because they forget.... sure you could charge less and retain maybe a bit longer.. say charge $20 and retain 5 months.. what the fuck is the point? it works out to the same $.. only real benefit to lowering the membership price is lowering CB rate..

for really good quality sites, there is the fact that the surfers will remember the sites and join at a later date (after they're horny again).. only if the sites are very memorable.

but basically, I think no matter what you do it's 2.5 mo's.. you make the profit off mailing them over and over getting them to join again after they cancel, off up sales (especially from email) and off exits.. although once you get a shitload of members regardless of if 2.5 months is the average you WILL have people sign up that NEVER cancel. If you're getting 500 joins/day and 1% stays forever, that is still acquiring 150 members/mo that will never go away until their card expires.. (and after a yr that is $75k/mo, which isn't bad). I think this is where programs make their money im my experience and opinion..

good post, In the past i have come across a couple of sites that had exclusive looking content on the frontend, but none of that content in the members area

You really can't pin down retention on 1 thing and just fix it over night, the best thing to do is just ask your surfers what improvements you should make to the site/members area. Of course some will say "oh charge $1 for 30 days" or "more free porn" but some will actually give you some pretty good advice. The same way you would if a webmaster requested galleries or fpa's etc.

Most affilliates would go either full revshare or low trial/PPS. It's alot easier to sell a 4.95 trial and get paid 35 bucks. It wouldn't be surprising to see current buisness models modified such as Nastydollars paying a flat $40 and requiring a new member to pay 24.95.

Agreed 100% but this is why I choose to promo webcam/live cam dating sites - you can't download or save a live, 2-way communication.

Good post. :thumbsup

I guess Now I know what to do for 2005.

now we need to focus on censoring the free sites LOL :1orglaugh

2-3 months... but depends on the type of site as mentioned above..

amateur sites retain very well where the girl/guy has customer interaction.

looks like I should start a paysite to make the big money...2 months that's not bad at all.

its easy to post a 2 yrs rebill, weve got them too.. but average 2,5-3 months is for real

Good point donnie makes about pricing. Some sites charge a low price and might keep a member for 4-5 months but you could have gotten the same money out of the person in two months charging a higher monthly price

this is why as a webmaster you need to look at how the sponsor does there trials and what they pay out to determine what converts or can make you the most.

higher payout might not matter if the trial is to high and doesn't convert your traffic etc.

we have many PPS models in Pornkings look at what makes you more at the end of the day and not the payout. we have payouts from 3 cents to $35

PPS is the way to go. just look at the poll

What the poll shows, if it is an accurate reflection of reality, is how dismally we satisfy the needs of our customers. The only reason to prolong the equivalent of pressure-selling aluminium sidings is because there aren't enough sponsors offering an alternative, to accomodate us all.

People made money selling sidings and people make money from the crap marketed via PPS. I suppose there is a theoretical chance we could be the first industry to make serious, long-term money, depending entirely on smoke and mirrors. But it is much more likely that PPS operators are wide open to competition from programs that offer something more solid.

Such programs may be slow coming because they require comittment and creativity. Were it as simple as high-quality content and regular updates, there would already be thousands. But some exist now and more will follow.

We may not make more money when PPS is finally in the past. But we won't need to question any longer when the bubble is going to burst and it will be very refreshing not to be always wondering what we should have earned. Considering how many people have got rich with PPS, I think there will be surprisingly few mourners at its funeral.

bump for PPS

Some of the oldest and most successful sites are revshare. I bet the profit margins for these guys compared to some of the PPS aren't much different.

Man... I wish we had started FTV not two years ago, but in the good old days of 6 years ago. I'd have enough $$ then to produce a movie based on the books of Robert Jordan hahaaaaa

The poll can be read to indicate that revshare is more profitable than PPS and vice versa.

For instance, I suppose it depends on how much the revshare program pays and charges.

If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 50%, according to this poll, on average the revshare affiliate would earn (2-3 months), between $30 and $45 for each member.

If the subscription is $29.99 and pays 60% or if it pays $20 revshare, on average the affiliate would earn between $40 and $60 for each member.

If the subscription is $39.99 and pays 50% or 60%, the revshare affiliate would earn on average between $40 and $72 for each member.

This doesn't include those members that stay forever.

On the flip side PPS takes care of all those that drop off after one month. The difference would be on average $10 loss for a revshare affiliate. So it seems to equal out or at this point or revshare appears to still have a slight edge depending on the program being promoted.

I promote each type of program for different reasons. I promote PPS for fast money and lots of it. I promote revshare for stability, continuous flow of funds, and overall growth over time.