How Bad Of A Fuckup Was Iraq?

[davethetruth]

On a scale of 1-10, where 10 is the ultimate fuckup.

I'm curious what the popular opinion is here.

[I Like Chocolate]

Have to wait a decade or so to see how big. Could very well turn out to be a 10. Right now I'll go with 8.

[tony286]

How they voted this guy back in is beyond me.

[xclusive]

I really don't see how we could have fucked it up worst...

[Diesel006]

tony404, dont be so harsh, i am glad he was voted back in. That way it keeps the eye off of us here in Canada, and OUR plans for global domination.

[Manowar]

7-8 atm.

[groark]

Before us: 7
After: 10

[davethetruth]

Originally posted by Diesel006
tony404, dont be so harsh, i am glad he was voted back in. That way it keeps the eye off of us here in Canada, and OUR plans for global domination.

[Veterans Day]

Originally posted by Diesel006
tony404, dont be so harsh, i am glad he was voted back in. That way it keeps the eye off of us here in Canada, and OUR plans for global domination.

[Twe Russ]

8

[escorpio]

Looking like a full on 10 these days.

My father is a military guy (retired) and staunch Republican that was very much against going in to Iraq and every reason he gave has come to pass. This is going to be some fucked up shit and it is just getting started.

[Workshop_Willy]

Your question presumes it was a mistake at all. To be fair (and frankly, honest) you should ask first IF it was a mistake.

IMO, Iraq was not a fuckup. It's working beautifully. Here's why:

Killing terrorists in Falujah is MUCH easier than chasing them through Tora Bora. The terrorists are, ironically enough, "bringing the mountain to mohammed" by coming into Iraq to fight us. This was one of the clearly stated goals of our strategy in Iraq. Beautiful.


Sadaam Hussein is a megalomaniac whose personal goal is domination in the Arab world. He sees himself as the next great pan-arab leader. One of the ways in which he has tried to accomplish this (and this is why it matters), is by getting control of enough oil reserves to leverage his way into the game. This job was left unfinished in 1991, and it is finished now. I mean, who the hell thinks its a good idea to allow that guy to have a grip on the world economy?

It was real-politik in action.

[mardigras]

Originally posted by escorpio
and it is just getting started.

That's it. The last couple days are going to be the norm for the next month+

[mardigras]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
Your question presumes it was a mistake at all. To be fair (and frankly, honest) you should ask first IF it was a mistake.

IMO, Iraq was not a fuckup. It's working beautifully. Here's why:

Killing terrorists in Falujah is MUCH easier than chasing them through Tora Bora. The terrorists are, ironically enough, "bringing the mountain to mohammed" by coming into Iraq to fight us. This was one of the clearly stated goals of our strategy in Iraq. Beautiful.


Sadaam Hussein is a megalomaniac whose personal goal is domination in the Arab world. He sees himself as the next great pan-arab leader. One of the ways in which he has tried to accomplish this (and this is why it matters), is by getting control of enough oil reserves to leverage his way into the game. This job was left unfinished in 1991, and it is finished now. I mean, who the hell thinks its a good idea to allow that guy to have a grip on the world economy?

It was real-politik in action.

Nice story but you need to clarify that more civilians have died since the invasion than Sadaam's henchmen offed in the past decade+ and that we have been giving, "Yoo hoo!, We're coming!" alerts well in advance every step along the way leaving only a small percentage of martyr wannabes behind to kill or capture.

[davethetruth]

So I guess you think Iraq has played out perfectly and you would give it a 0 on the fuckup scale.

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
Your question presumes it was a mistake at all. To be fair (and frankly, honest) you should ask first IF it was a mistake.

IMO, Iraq was not a fuckup. It's working beautifully. Here's why:

Killing terrorists in Falujah is MUCH easier than chasing them through Tora Bora. The terrorists are, ironically enough, "bringing the mountain to mohammed" by coming into Iraq to fight us. This was one of the clearly stated goals of our strategy in Iraq. Beautiful.


Sadaam Hussein is a megalomaniac whose personal goal is domination in the Arab world. He sees himself as the next great pan-arab leader. One of the ways in which he has tried to accomplish this (and this is why it matters), is by getting control of enough oil reserves to leverage his way into the game. This job was left unfinished in 1991, and it is finished now. I mean, who the hell thinks its a good idea to allow that guy to have a grip on the world economy?

It was real-politik in action.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
Your question presumes it was a mistake at all. To be fair (and frankly, honest) you should ask first IF it was a mistake.

IMO, Iraq was not a fuckup. It's working beautifully. Here's why:

Killing terrorists in Falujah is MUCH easier than chasing them through Tora Bora. The terrorists are, ironically enough, "bringing the mountain to mohammed" by coming into Iraq to fight us. This was one of the clearly stated goals of our strategy in Iraq. Beautiful.


Sadaam Hussein is a megalomaniac whose personal goal is domination in the Arab world. He sees himself as the next great pan-arab leader. One of the ways in which he has tried to accomplish this (and this is why it matters), is by getting control of enough oil reserves to leverage his way into the game. This job was left unfinished in 1991, and it is finished now. I mean, who the hell thinks its a good idea to allow that guy to have a grip on the world economy?

It was real-politik in action.

Killing terrorists? Uhm... alright, let's just clarify this for a second.

The terrorists never were in Iraq. That's not who the US was going after when they entered. The terrorists that are dying there now? Sure, you can call them terrorists... I am willing to bet that they call themselves freedom fighters who are trying to stop the invaders into their own country.

Don't go praising the deaths of terrorists when it was the US that made them into "terrorists" in the first place by taking over their land.

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by mardigras
Nice story but you need to clarify that more civilians have died since the invasion than Sadaam's henchmen offed in the past decade+ and that we have been giving, "Yoo hoo!, We're coming!" alerts well in advance every step along the way leaving only a small percentage of martyr wannabes behind to kill or capture.

Talk about a story!

1) We're still running across unmarked graves, and even if we weren't, who the hell can say how many Sadaam's henchmen killed? You know that for a fact, do you? Get off! Man wake up and read a little history about things like the Final Solution, the Balkans, and Rwanda. Ask yourself what happens when something is done and when something isn't done. Are you even for real? Don't even bother trying to defend that stupid ass point.

2) The warnings must be unheeded. Otherwise how could we be killing so many civilians? Something about your position doesn't make sense.

Try using your head without it being up your ass. Read something in addition to the crap you're obviously reading. Get both sides, and it should become clear what's going on.

[beergood]

1. The war isn't over yet.


2. We need a good staging point for when we invade Iran


So I'll give it a 3 on a fuck up scale of 1-10 because I think it wasn't a bad idea but was presented to us under the wrong pretenses.


May the sun never set on the American empire.

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by beergood
1. The war isn't over yet.


2. We need a good staging point for when we invade Iran


So I'll give it a 3 on a fuck up scale of 1-10 because I think it wasn't a bad idea but was presented to us under the wrong pretenses.


May the sun never set on the American empire.

I'll buy that one. No WMD have yet been found, and that did piss me off. I wish the administration had told the truth about why we were going in.

[Paco, of Large Cash.]

Invading Iraq was not nor is a fuck-up ... it is what's best for the world. Sure, forcing a society/culture to adopt an ideology, such as Democracy, is wrong, but keeping them oppressed is even worse.

How could a woman from Iraq know about equality?

How could a person know they are being oppressed unless freedom is shown to them?


I could go on about this but instead I will end it off with GO BUSH GO!

[JDog]

I went with a 10 - but who knows maybe it can get better. But at the moment it is a 10. I don't think we had any right to invade with the intel we had. But that is just my

jDoG

[EZRhino]

Originally posted by tony404
How they voted this guy back in is beyond me.

And beyond 49% of Americans

[StuartD]

Originally posted by Paco, of Large Cash.

How could a person know they are being oppressed unless freedom is shown to them?

By shooting them??

it's called "Sticking your nose where it doesn't belong" and it's how US gets the bad end of terrorist attacks in the first place.

[TheJimmy]

Originally posted by EZRhino
And beyond 49% of Americans

I really think we're going to have to wait and see...


I'm hoping that the 'planting the seeds of democracy' thing works out and that it doesn't end up being another 'kicking an anthill' and stirring up more hate :/


again, only time will tell...

[BackToMine]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
easier than chasing them through Tora Bora.

There were no terrorists killed in Tora Bora and no "super caves"

The terrorists are, ironically enough, "bringing the mountain to mohammed" by coming into Iraq to fight us.

The Iraq war created more terrorists and recruitment for Al-Qaeda went SKY HIGH.
Fact.
Even the retards International Institute of Strategic Studies said so

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by MaskedMan
Killing terrorists? Uhm... alright, let's just clarify this for a second.

The terrorists never were in Iraq. That's not who the US was going after when they entered. The terrorists that are dying there now? Sure, you can call them terrorists... I am willing to bet that they call themselves freedom fighters who are trying to stop the invaders into their own country.

Don't go praising the deaths of terrorists when it was the US that made them into "terrorists" in the first place by taking over their land.

According to the Iraqis themselves, MOST ALL of the "Freedom Fighters" are foreigners. They are from Iran, Syria, etc. They infiltrate into the country, they are not Iraqis. No one has contested that, not even left-wing media. Where the hell did you get that idea, anyway? LOL

Since you want to "clarify things", let's be absolutely sure what a "terrorist" is. A "terrorist" is someone who intentionally targets civilians, ie women, children, non-combatant shopkeepers, etc. That's what a terrorist is, and I'd like you to try and deny that plenty of innocent civilians have been targeted by your "Freedom Fighters" in Iraq.

Next point? I can knock these out of the park all day long. Gimme a fast ball!

[BackToMine]

The current US stance towards the violence and war in Iraq is the same as it was during the early stages of Vietnam.

In a few years, you'll smell the shit, wake up and realise the terrorists testicles are larger than yours

[Mr. Pat]

anyone who supports this rediculous "war" is an idiot and an asshole. i'm just seething over this. isn't it just plain that this is a power grab by dumbya and his crazy neocon nazi assholes?

To justify this is like trying to find meaning in your last bowel movement. to believe anything at all that comes from this administration, is beyond gullibility and simplemindedness.

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by BackToMine
The current US stance towards the violence and war in Iraq is the same as it was during the early stages of Vietnam.

In a few years, you'll smell the shit, wake up and realise the terrorists testicles are larger than yours

So, we are the only remaining superpower in the world with the best military, the strongest economy, and the largest number of immigrants because we are weak, stupid, and cowardly?

You're making more sense all the time.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
According to the Iraqis themselves, MOST ALL of the "Freedom Fighters" are foreigners. They are from Iran, Syria, etc. They infiltrate into the country, they are not Iraqis. No one has contested that, not even left-wing media. Where the hell did you get that idea, anyway? LOL

I never said that it was Iraqi's... I said it was people who didn't want people on their land. I don't want Bush or his war mongoring in a country next to mine either but I'm stuck with it.

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy


Since you want to "clarify things", let's be absolutely sure what a "terrorist" is. A "terrorist" is someone who intentionally targets civilians, ie women, children, non-combatant shopkeepers, etc. That's what a terrorist is, and I'd like you to try and deny that plenty of innocent civilians have been targeted by your "Freedom Fighters" in Iraq.

So by your own definition, the US military are terrorists. Thanks chief.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
So, we are the only remaining superpower in the world with the best military, the strongest economy, and the largest number of immigrants because we are weak, stupid, and cowardly?

You're making more sense all the time.

The biggest bully in the school yard is the one that everyone's scared of and 9 times outta 10 it turns out that he is the way he is because he's weak, scared and cowardly.

[mardigras]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
1) Are you even for real? Don't even bother trying to defend that stupid ass point.

Most (I'm not sure if all) reports of mass graves they've found are older than a decade, most are suggested to be from the 80's. Terrible thing regardless of when they happened, but my point was comparing the past year to the previous decade.

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
2) The warnings must be unheeded. Otherwise how could we be killing so many civilians? Something about your position doesn't make sense.

We're talking poor people with nowhere to go wandering out to be targets. I might be tempted to to stay in my home too and hope the people who claim to be freeing me will not blow me up because "intelligence" suggested there "might" have been a "terrorist" somewhere in the neighborhood. They don't have the barrage of media we do and the culture has been controlled so long their actions/reactions shouldn't be expected to be as ours would.

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
Try using your head without it being up your ass. Read something in addition to the crap you're obviously reading. Get both sides, and it should become clear what's going on.

Well to tell you the truth, Mr Willy, between my C-Band and mpeg satellites I watch newscasts from all over the world and I do a good bit of international newsreading online and the only ones I've seen shoveling the rhetoric as thick as you in this thread have come from a segment of the American

[Theo]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
I'll buy that one. No WMD have yet been found, and that did piss me off. I wish the administration had told the truth about why we were going in.

You went to Iraq for oil sources but this doesnt mean you'll ever experience cheap oil in personal level as a citizen.

You went to Iraq because the military industry strongly wanted it.

You went to Iraq as an effort to help re-election through spreading fear.

Do you real think besides you, me and the rest normal people anyone else gives a shit if Saddam was megalomaniac or if he was evil to iraqii people? Nobody. It's all about money and power.

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by MaskedMan
I never said that it was Iraqi's... I said it was people who didn't want people on their land. I don't want Bush or his war mongoring in a country next to mine either but I'm stuck with it.

This doesn't make sense. "on their land". Iraq. So, these people are Iraqis who do not and have never lived in Iraq? What are you trying to say?

So by your own definition, the US military are terrorists. Thanks chief.

If you are talking about carpet bombing and the use of nuclear weapons during WWII, yes they
were terrorists, as were the British, the Germans, and the Soviets. If you're talking about using smart weapons to try and take out the bad guys with minimal damage to surrounding areas and civilians, then you are wrong. They are not terrorists. These weapons were specifically developed to increase the probability of a kill while at the same time minimizing the amount of firepower expended (and therefore the number of civilian casualites). In other words, civilized nations have gone to very great expense to correct these errors in their policies and lessen the horror of war.

Nice try, buckwheat. Anymore softballs? LOL That kind of shit flies on Larry King, but don't think that it's idiotic and dishonest slant won't be challenged in here.

[BackToMine]

Originally posted by Workshop_Willy
So, we are the only remaining superpower in the world with the best military, the strongest economy, and the largest number of immigrants because we are weak, stupid, and cowardly?

You're making more sense all the time.

eh

Did I question whether the US is the worlds only superpower?

NO.

Does it matter in wars like Iraq or Vietnam?

HELL FUCKING NO.

[BackToMine]

Neo-republicans and those who vote/support Bush have lost their status of "human being" and are below animals, hence the creatures maybe killed indiscriminately

[KRL]

The fuckup was thinking you could go in with 150,000 soldiers to police a completely unstable country of 30 Million.

Fucking idiots.

It takes years to rebuild and reconstitute a government. Especially when you are displacing the power structure run by the majoriy with the minority in control.

[samsam]

The fuckup was going in there in the first place.... no moral highground, no UN support, no justification.

I reckon this will be a historical fuck up of all fuck ups and I estimate that it will escalate to World War 3 in some form or another - mass destruction is bound to be the end result.

[EviLSuperstaR]

Four years of Bush were one big fuck up.
Never before the US has made such a big fool of itself as during the past years.

[theking]

Originally posted by KRL
The fuckup was thinking you could go in with 150,000 soldiers to police a completely unstable country of 30 Million.

Fucking idiots.

It takes years to rebuild and reconstitute a government. Especially when you are displacing the power structure run by the majoriy with the minority in control.

The initial force was able to easily defeat the Iraqi military (though I thought it was taking an un-nessary risk)...but you are correct. I am not sure what made them think that they could police a land mass of that size with a population of that size if they chose to resist occupation.

What is even worse...in my opinion...is the fact that the Secretary of Defense still refuses to insert more troops. I am sure that he must have a reason for not inserting more troops...a reason that the public is unaware of. Of course one of the primary reasons is that our forces...globally are being over extended...which is the fault of the Congress approving the cut of approximately a million active duty personel beginning with President Bush Senior's admin and carried out throughout President Clinton's admin.

[Theo]

I agree. Iraq needs more soldiers now. Since there aren't any real close-plans of leaving you need to insure the security of soldiers at the highest level.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by KRL
The fuckup was thinking you could go in with 150,000 soldiers to police a completely unstable country of 30 Million.

Fucking idiots.

It takes years to rebuild and reconstitute a government. Especially when you are displacing the power structure run by the majoriy with the minority in control.

It wouldn't be viewed the way it is had it of gone more smoothly... however, there was a whole bunch of people saying way before the invasion that it just wasn't going to go very smoothly at all... so it's not like this should be a surprise.

[Workshop_Willy]

Originally posted by BackToMine
eh

Did I question whether the US is the worlds only superpower?

NO.

Does it matter in wars like Iraq or Vietnam?

HELL FUCKING NO.

Yes, you did. When you said that we have smaller testicles than the terrorists, you called into question one of the essential qualities that make us the only remaining superpower. Nuff said there I think.

Does it matter in wars like Iraq and Vietnam? Well, let me tell you a little story that any vietnam veteran in here will be happy to elaborate.

Militarily, we kicked the the Viet Congs' ass. We kicked the NVA's ass. The reasons we did not succeed politically in Vietnam are manifold, but two main factors caused our failure IMO:

1) In order to avoid nuclear war, we were overly careful about how we fought in Vietnam on a strategic level. In short, we didn't invade the north and simply get rid of the problem. We even worried about "accidentally" sinking Soviet shipping in Hai Phong harbor, for example. We therefore didn't exercise our full military might in the war towards the north itself.

Because we are the sole remaining superpower, we don't have those concerns anymore. We can do what is necessary to win.

2) What Ho Chi Min called "our American friends" worked steadfastly to undermine American resolve here at home. I'm speaking of communist agents active in the peace movement. I'm speaking of Hanoi Jane (who should still be in prison, IMO), and all those little punks who walked around waving North Vietnamese flags.

In short, YES it makes all the difference there is. ;)

[Theo]

Vietnam with 60k american soldiers dead and 300k wounded was a military success? I wouldn't say that.

[Jman]

Like some of you said ...

How bad of a fuck up is Bush in the white house for the next four years....

God I love Canada... Even if I am freezing my ass off

[pornguy]

Had to go with the perfect 10 of a fuck up.

Lead by the number one fuck up himself.

[Rochard]

Has everyone forgotten what Iraq did? Let me refresh your memory.

In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwait, kill most of it's male population, looted the country, and then caused the world's worst environmental disaster in the history of mankind.

Then they violated every term of the UN peace treaty.

Iraq is fine; The Iraqi people are ready for Freedom. It's a small handful of terrorists that are doing this.

[EviLSuperstaR]

Originally posted by RocHard
Has everyone forgotten what Iraq did? Let me refresh your memory.

In 1991 Iraq invaded Kuwait, kill most of it's male population, looted the country, and then caused the world's worst environmental disaster in the history of mankind.

Then they violated every term of the UN peace treaty.

Iraq is fine; The Iraqi people are ready for Freedom. It's a small handful of terrorists that are doing this.

Don't forget what the US did:
In 2003 the US - the biggest polluter in the world - illegally invades Iraq, kills ten thousands of civilians including women and children, tortures people in prison, hands the country over to foreign terrorists and lucrative business contracts with companies linked to the top US politicians, robs the country's natural resources and installs a puppet government that the Iraqi's don't want...

Nice.

[Rochard]

Originally posted by EviLSuperstaR
Don't forget what the US did:
In 2003 the US - the biggest polluter in the world - illegally invades Iraq, kills ten thousands of civilians including women and children, tortures people in prison, hands the country over to foreign terrorists and lucrative business contracts with companies linked to the top US politicians, robs the country's natural resources and installs a puppet government that the Iraqi's don't want...

Nice.

Of course we are the world's biggest polluter in the world. We are one of the largest countries in the world, and our industrial base is larger than any other country.

We illegally invaded Iraq? How so? I guess the US did the same when it invaded Germany, Korea, and Vietnam? There is no such thing as a "legal" or "illegal" war. And of course the violations of peace treaty didn't give the US "legal" reason to invade Iraq.

We killed tens of thousands of civilians? I haven't seen that figure, but this is the end result of a war. Imagine one hundred and thirty thousand people invading a country the size of California. We are lucky more people didn't die. It's not like we intentionally targeted civilians.

The US did torture people in prison, however, this was a rather small case. The difference between the US and Iraq is that this was a way of life for thousands of people in prision on a daily basis, while the US punished those who did this.

[Head]

A lot more Americans are going to die!