no, it is you who has fallen victim to propaganda. you dont even live in this country so dont tell me what can and can not be achieved.

This is so not true. The fucking mexican gov't tries to sue the US because we don't have water along their migration trails. The illegals forget to bring the basic necessities for survival. some and die from dehydration and the others from hypothermia. Most certainly not from getting shot by our border patrol.

I guess saying that pledge of alliegence over and over again really has warped your brain.

And, no I don't live in the USA but I've spent six months there.

I've seen all I need to see.

I make over 100k a year and I did not graduate high school, nor am I a genious. I make my money because I work my ass off and I want it, and I don't fall prey to the pessimist attitude that most people let rule their lives after a few (or many, who cares?) encounters with difficulty.

You're right - he is a victim of propaganda. If he's anything like me he is also living that propaganda. Why aren't you?

im glad you didnt like it here, i hope you never return. we need less idiots in this country, and you leaving was a start in the right direction.

I think we're all probably victims of propaganda.

Some are just more brainwashed than others.

I classify anyone who believes in a laughable concept such as 'equal opportunity' as extremely brainwashed.

The delusionals are out running wild today.

Yes, just because you did okay that means there's equal opportunity. :1orglaugh

Tell me, are you white? How much money did your parents make?

you keep saying that yet you dont give any examples of how its not the case. you think anyone who makes over 80k/year comes from a rich family? the ones who cant do it are the ones who are brainwashed. they dont even try because their community leaders tell them they dont have a chance because of where they live or the color of their skin.

The concept of "equal opportunity" is indeed ridiculous, but it can easily be replaced by a concept of "sufficient opportunity". People don't need equal opportunity in life to be responsible for their own actions.

Joe, are the the offspring of an Aborigine and a marsupial? You, freak, are a disgrace to your country. You should just shut your piehole and move along. If you had some type of business in your sig i could understand why your talking so much shit. But you don't. So, what's your excuse? Did our troops off your family in Iraq?

BTW, where did you visit the states that makes you such an authority on our way of life?

You have shitty public schools in poor areas and better ones for the richer white kids.

You have kids having to deal with drug addicted or abusive parents or guardians and having no choice in the matter.

You have a society consumed by racism

You live in a world of nepotism and old boys clubs.

As I stated before in this thread. Anyone who believes that a child born to a poor, black, crack addicted single mother has the same opportunity as a child born to a wealthy, privileged, connected family is completely and utterly brainwashed.

The concept of equal opportunity is a joke. The fact that you believe it makes you a joke.

When you say that "they don't even try because their community leaders tell them they don't have a chance", you are actually giving a very strong argument for his position.

I've seen New York, L.A., Las Vegas and I've been up and down the coast of Florida from Key West to St. Augustine.

So I've seen enough.

What have you seen outside your country?

Joe doesn't get out much. These conditions are everywhere.

I agree with you and believe that the cornerstones of "sufficient opportunity" should be a well funded and effective public school system and a well funded and effective publichealth system.

The USA has neither.

I don't remember saying that anywhere has 'equal opportunity'.

yet people prove you wrong everyday. you think there isnt one person whos grown up in every one of your examples and made it? when people like you keep telling them they cant make it, they start to believe it and give up hope which lands them exactly where they are, nowhere. if one person made it threw your obstacle course, it would only prove that they have the oppertunity to make it. most may have a hard road to suceed, but the road isnt open to only rich white kids who two parents

Once more with a radical perspective.

The rich cannot be rich without the sweat of the poor. That has never changer. Teresa Heinz Kerry does not manufacture ketchup, thousands of working people manufacture ketchup using their sweat and the capital of those who own stock in Heinz. That is the upper and the middle class.

Do remember the primary goal of Heniz is not ketchuip manufturing but returning a good rate of return on the capital, dividends to shareholders. To do that they will pay as little as possible to manufacture the ketchup. So if there are people in timbuktu willing to work for these and freight, tarriffs and other economic forces make it more profitable to make ketchup in Timbuktu that is where they will built a plant. The only mitigating factor is government incentive to keep the jobs at home.

Wealth is the essence of a capitalistic society and without it would would have some more egalitarian system. Unfortunately no other system seems to work.

Even the Romans recognized the need for bread and circuses. If you forget the poor and they have no way to eat they will sieze the ketchup factory and eat fat greedy cat with lots of ketchup.

It takes some recognition of reality to maintain social stability.

Agreed..

You also have to give large to live large.. Most people tend to forget that tazes goto schools, communities, and helping our country prosper..

You are paying taxes so that our country can continue to produce high educated people that you may be able to one day have on your staff.. Or you are helping pay for your friends college costs so that the tuition costs stay lower than they would without that tax money not coming in..

It surprises me how so many people in the upper brackets only think of their own wallet when it comes to society as a whole..

In the state of Oregon they proposed a tax that on average for everyone would have cost $150 per person per year. This tax failed and I now pay $1000 extra dollars per year on my wifes college tuition rather than $150 per year in tax...

Tax issues are touchy, I hate paying taxes, but I know that we have them for a good reason in the end..

how so? because people put their trust in people that dont have their best interests at heart? just because jessie jackson says a poor black child who has no father figure cant make it doesnt make it true.

Good post :thumbsup

Taxes might exist for good reasons, but whether they're being spent on good reasons is another story. :winkwink:

Some people escape their circumstances yes... but not many.

I don't deny that it is possible for some to achieve great things against all odds but it is the exception rather than the rule.

Just please stop speaking shit about 'equal opportunity' because it's a ridiculous concept.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we?ll see Armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will.
I sure could use a vacation from this

Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I?ll see you down in Arizona bay.

Fret for your figure and
Fret for your latte and
Fret for your lawsuit and
Fret for your hairpiece and
Fret for your prozac and
Fret for your pilot and
Fret for your contract and
Fret for your car.
It?s a
Bullshit three ring circus sideshow of
Freaks

Here in this hopeless fucking hole we call LA
The only way to fix it is to flush it all away.
Any fucking time. Any fucking day.
Learn to swim, I?ll see you down in Arizona bay.

Some say a comet will fall from the sky.
Followed by meteor showers and tidal waves.
Followed by faultlines that cannot sit still.
Followed by millions of dumbfounded dipshits.

Some say the end is near.
Some say we?ll see armageddon soon.
I certainly hope we will cuz
I sure could use a vacation from this

Silly shit, stupid shit...

One great big festering neon distraction,
I?ve a suggestion to keep you all occupied.

Learn to swim.

Mom?s gonna fix it all soon.
Mom?s comin? round to put it back the way it ought to be.

Learn to swim.

Fuck L Ron Hubbard and
Fuck all his clones.
Fuck all those gun-toting
Hip gangster wannabes.

Learn to swim.

Fuck retro anything.
Fuck your tattoos.
Fuck all you junkies and
Fuck your short memory.

Learn to swim.

Fuck smiley glad-hands
With hidden agendas.
Fuck these dysfunctional,
Insecure actresses.

Learn to swim.

Cuz I?m praying for rain
And I?m praying for tidal waves
I wanna see the ground give way.
I wanna watch it all go down.
Mom please flush it all away.
I wanna watch it go right in and down.
I wanna watch it go right in.
Watch you flush it all away.

Time to bring it down again.
Don?t just call me pessimist.
Try and read between the lines.
I can?t imagine why you wouldn?t
Welcome any change, my friend.

I wanna see it all come down.

Yeah, I am white... that should be fairly apparent from my sig. My parents made and still make shit, I make more than both of them and one of my uncles combined.

Is it hard to succeed? You're fucking right it is.

Does that mean the opportunity is not there?

For the record I know just as many blacks as whites who have come out of poverty in the exact same way I did. Hard work and a belief.

if they didnt have an equal opportunity to make it in america escape would be impossible. how can they do something that you say cant be done? you confuse equal opportunity with equal privilege, which is something that doesnt exist anywhere.

I love that song - just wanted to hear it again. :P

Tell me were you parents supportive... or were they crack addicts who beat you and told you you were worthless?

Were you encouraged to make something of your life or were you thrown out of the house at 13?

Was your mother a prostitute?

Was your dad a drug dealer or a thief?

I totally agree with this..

In my opinion they should have something of a tax optimization form that you fill out that way your taxation dollars can goto what you specify they goto..

For instantce, you get a 10 category selection of tax categories like schools, weapons, community funding, etc...

You would have to pick a minimum of 5 items, and specify the % you want to goto each...

That way you could customize what your money goes to.. so many people have so many beliefs it would probably spread it across the board to a good amount with correct priorities..

Just my opinion though.. Could be idiocy..

If you have money behind you you have a greater opportunity than those who do not. In America if you are a WASP you have a better shot than if you are are black; unless of course you have money.

This society is based on money. Yes you can make it on sweat alone but that requires intellegence nd perserverance.

You must consider the average person has a 100 IQ by definition and little to no money behind them. That average person does not have the same opportunity as the Bush twins, of Chelsea Clinton etc.

Do you even THINK about what you type?

Are you 16?

Wouldn't that make electing representatives somewhat pointless though?

Great post!

:thumbsup

switch "weapons" with "Defense" and it would be number one LOL!

America's red are so fucken scared out of there minds right now and the fuckers are only killin themselves.

Opportunity consists of more than just physical freedom. If, like you say, people won't even try if their environment tells them they have no chance, society is to blame if those people don't achieve much, rather than those people themselves.

An example:
If a child grows up getting told by his parents every day that he's a worthless piece of shit and that he will never amount to anything, and you accept that such things do in fact have an influence on how people behave in society, that child has less opportunity than other children.

Physically, people in the 19th century had just as much opportunity of creating a microwave as the people of today. However, they lacked the proper (scientific) beliefs to create one. (knowledge is actually a belief system, combining an extensive set of beliefs about the world)

Likewise, if someone grows up without the proper (personal) beliefs to achieve things, he may have the physical opportunity, but his chances of achievement are still extremely slim.

Dad was abusive mentally and physically, a drug dealer, in fact that is how I started out in life. I spent 9 months in jail for dealing dope and got out and started doing the same thing - I almost got busted again and made a change, I left California.

I've been supporting myself since I was 15, buying my own food and clothes.

No, my mom was not a prostitute or a drug addict.

Now, does it really matter? Every person is equal to the sum of his or her own choices. Every person has the ability to make choices in their life, you can't blame shit on your parents. Of course you can, but if you're that type of person you are probably doing so in the welfare line waiting for a handout instead of beating the streets looking for a job.

Could very well.. But it would also eliminate some of the overpaid politicians who like to line their pockets with our money..

Sometimes, mostly in the case of children, people are the sum of someone else's choices.

Congratulations on getting to where you are but you are the exception rather than the rule... and your achievements are not the result of 'equal opportunity' but your intelligence and determination.

Not everyone is as lucky.

you're hopeless. this is what ive been saying the whole time, but you chose not to read what i said and instead attack me. idiot
i guess from reading this you conclude that anyone who isnt white and born into a rich family isnt intellegant enough to make it therefore equal oppertunity doesnt exist. you cant agree that its possible and then say it doesnt exist.