lol chris is an idiot, you goes against everything i just said, no mumbo jumbo talking, i like cdsmith post alot better cause he stick to the subject.

Ive Been to alot of boards and always in an argument someone always look for that person grammer and correct them, talk about lamer... maybe cause i dont born speaking english? does that ever cross your mind?

ok i cant win with you people, ohh and uhh i got 2 signup with stiffy today, ive been using them for 6 month and it always the same ratio 1:300.

"I run a small membership site. I love CCbill and the work they do that makes it possible for me to do my job. I never would suspect them - - but it's not because they couldn't do it. I'm sure they could. I'm sure they would even get away with it. It's just not worth it."
-------------------------------

Thanks for the compliment but here comes the reason that third party processors can't shave site owners -- we have nowhere to send the surfers if we were shaving! Think about it, a guy joins YOUR site, then he is sent to somewhere else??? It's a chargeback or a refund waiting to happen -- just not possible. What if the guy needs customer service? Who does he go to? You? Us? With 170 employees that kind of scam could never stay secret, someone would quit and tell it too -- and I dont mean just with CCBill, I mean with ANY processor http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

Teadrinker -- I find it funny that you choose to single out one of the sponsors that I happen to know for a fact pays webmasters on just about any type of transaction aside from magic beans. Why would they bother to pay you on declines, checks, etc if they weren't going to pay you on joins????

Quote:

Thanks for the compliment but here comes the reason that third party processors can't shave site owners

I don't think anyone was ever talking about the site owners being shaved. The complaint, if you will, has always been about the site owners and the cc processor shaving from the webmaster affiliate. I'm sure it can be done, no doubt about that cause that's just a software hack but I don't believe for a minute that it is being done. Big difference.

NOTE: Edited for faulty UBB skills http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

------------------
The Webmaster's Folder

The Midnight TGP2 Submitter

[This message has been edited by Ludedude (edited 08-31-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ludedude (edited 08-31-2001).]

ludedude -- the comment that I responded to in the quote was regarding site owners being shaved by third party processors if you'll read back thru the thread.

There are many ways, both intentional and unintentional, that a so called shave can happen.

I see lots of people talking about how their hits were shaved -- and I don't get it. Unless you are getting paid per click, what does it matter if your hits are first page raw, second page unique or 12th page inside the members area?

The bottom line should go like this --

a. reseller has a spot and he knows how much traffic it sends a day.

b. reseller sends X days worth to sponsor A

c. reseller sends X days worth to sponsor B

d. reseller gets a check for X from sponsor A, and for Y from sponsor B

e. Who sent the bigger check? Thats the sponsor that should get the spot http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

The thing to keep in mind is that numbers can be made to look like anything you want them to be. Give me someone's raw logs and I can make the same numbers appear to be good, bad or indifferent, all by interpretation, and not be cheating anyone by a single click.

The amounts on the checks are all that matter to me http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

Here's my interpretation:

Sponsor A pays 35 per sign up and converts 1 in 250(not too bad you think to yourself)

Sponsor B pays 25 per sign up and converts 1 in 250(way good also)

Both Sponsors count first page RAW.

You send them both 2000 clicks according to your own outclicks stats.

Sponsor A shows 1000 clicks on their stats page at the end of the day

Sponsor B shows 2000 clicks on their stats page at the end of the day

converting 1 in 250 on each you get:

Sponsor A=$140

Sponsor B=$200

I've simplified the math a little for the example, but it comes down to the fact if sponsor A is only counting 50% of your click thrus, you are already losing money, or the opportunity to make money. The choice on which sponsor to choose is easy.

Trust your gut and make a change if you think something isn't right. You may be surprised that there are still honest webmasters that run staight up affiliate programs that give you credit for all your traffic.

Here's a resource I found useful: http://www.thestatistician.com

Enjoy the weekend:
Snake
snakesworld.com


[This message has been edited by Snake (edited 08-31-2001).]

I actually agree with KimmyKim http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

The only thing I don't agree with is the 1st page counting. As you can see from some of the brain wizards that posts here, what page clicks are counted on is probably last in their mind, but it is important for many people.

If you have one page that has two ads for different sponsors - then of course you are correct. Who gives a flying XXXX how well they convert or even if they DO shave (besides that making them a suspect company). If you can make $20 a day with company B - stay with them over company A making $10 a day.

The problem comes in when you have multiple sites with multiple pages, domains, and even dynamic advertising. WIthout using click counters - it become much more difficult to tell what is more effective. Conversion ratios are a quick and easy way to tell this.

You of course have to take CTR into account as well, and I generally put up a few ads for a ompany before blanketing my sites with them. I am a beginner adult webmaster, but have done affiliate programs for years. I know about what CTR to expect. If a correctly measured CTR underperforms my expectations - then it usually means I have done a poor job selecting creatives, or need to change positioning, size, text, whatever.

This is very hard to measure if you do not have accurate stats from your sponsor if you are not measuring it with pop counters.

It is very hard to correctly measure and target ads when you are dealing with multiple stats, sponsors, and even time zones. If stats are not updated instantly - and you do not know what timezone they are using - then it is actually impossible to measure correctly over anything but the LONG term, which does not allow for good tweaking.

I think sponsors should at least tell their members how they are measuring clicks.

Oh, and KimmyKim's logic for why 3rd party billing companies don't shave makes PERFECT sense. Unfortunately, this will not matter to those that are shaver conspriracy theorists.

Too bad we don't have something like CJ in the adult world - where all the stats are handles by a third party - kinda like CTC I guess, but better. But CJ has its problems too.

Ohh man... something i gotta tell you guys, this is getting REALLY confusing, ok after i took down ars link on most of my site but still leaving up a few links, GUESS WHAT?! am now convert 1:214!!! now i put back all the ars links back again and getting ALOT of signups.

Ok so do i expect to get 0:7000 again when i send 2000 hits aday for a few days?

I agree with you CD. If there's anything I learned from this thread it is that webmasters should diversify their sponsors. Being too dependent on any one program leaves us open to fluctuations. No shaving just the vagaries of the market.

By the way, guys, my new manual submit TGP post service is being worked on. Will let you know re details when it's complete.

Hey innocent lovely webmasters, you want FACTS?

Ever used reccuring programs?

Why do they always convert 1 surfer out of 3-4 trials? Now, the standard member stay 3 months. (I'm generous - mix of SE/AVS/TGP traffic)

Try a reccuring no-shaving program:

You get 10 signups, 4 of them convert to montly membership, 50% payout.
Trial is $2.95 and monthly membership is $29.95

10 x $2.95 + 4 rebills x 3 months x $39.95 = $508.90

$508.9 x 50% = $254.45 in your pocket

Now, if PPS sponsors didn't shave at all, you make 10 x 35$ = $350 with the same traffic. I wonder HOW they can pay you the extra 100$ they didn't make.

This example is based on real stats, from a good reccuring program, with GREAT retention. The traffic was a mix of excelent and bad traffic. Overall, you got the best out of your traffic.

Now, let's say I'm a master of tgp, and send 10 trials a day to a reccuring sponsor. This traffic is NOT going to stay 3 months, and is NOT going to convert to monthly membership at the 40% rate. It'll be 20% and the average member will stay 1-2 month. Poor traffic is ALSO poor quality converters and members. Did you know that? Wow eh?

Ok, on the reccuring program:

10 x $2.95 + 2 rebills x 2 months x $39.95 = $189.30

$189.3 x 50% = 94.65$ in your pocket

On PPS = $350 hell yeah, wake up dude.

10 trial on reccuring is easy to get when you're a master of tgp. You need about 60,000 uniques. How many signup you get on PPS with 60,000 uniques? 2... 3.. let's say 2.7 x 35$ = $94.5

Oh, poor innocent webmasters...

zgorf and others who use this 'recurring no shaving' Just FYI, processors use a cookie based tracking system since they do not install tracking software onto the customers servers. In most instances cookie software is LESS accurrate than PHP or SSI tracking.

Also zgorf - PPS webmaster programs who are not in financial difficulty rely on the OVERALL numbers. You don't shave a particular webmaster because they send traffic that doesnt' retain well. You don't shave at all. You look at the overall numbers, the overall retention of your membership base.

For example, if you retain your members for 1.5 months @ $39.95 with a $2.95 trial. That is an avg value per customer of $62.87

If you payout $35 per sign up you still make $27.87 per sign up. Of course you have expenses, payroll, overhead, etc... but sponsor programs also make exit console revenue. *note: some more than others http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/wink.gif

Ya know what, I'm sure some of my webmasters send traffic that is woth $90 a sign up and I'm sure some send traffic that is worth $15 but at the end of the day, it all averages out for me to make a profit paying $35-42 per sign up and giving rewards points http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif withOUT shaving!

That is what matters.

Don't try to fools me Marc,

"For example, if you retain your members for 1.5 months @ $39.95 with a $2.95 trial. That is an avg value per customer of $62.87"

The problem is that in reality, only one out of 3-4 surfers stay 1.5 months @ $39.95 with a $2.95 trial. NOT all of them. If it was the case, WOW, I would make the BANK on reccuring and retire in 6 months.

I'm bringing general stats and use my brain and some logic. There's NO way a sponsor can pay 35$ for every single trial. I might believe it for about 2-3 sponsors I checked myself, their content, quality, exlusive stuff, etc, and I can tell you ARS is far away from them. You don't have 66 sites Marc, you have 66 tours with low content inside each site. If you didn't notice yet, the surfer does. Anyway your logic is simply irrealistic. The traffic quality is going down every day, if you aren't shaving now, you'll have to shave in future to pay $35 per signup. But seriously, any big 'nobody' promoter knows you are already doing it.

The best example was when I switched between 5 accounts and the ratios jumped and dropped in matter of secondes. Anyway, I'm a nobody, you aren't going to shave big boys, because you're a smart guy.

Oh btw, I made 55 trial sales on my last TGP gallery (reccuring). That's $2200 on PPS @ $40... too bad they all shave http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/frown.gif Damn, one gallery every day and I would be able to retire in 5 months ($330,000). It's a shame...

I shave because beards and mustaches are retarded.

YOU ARE NOT using any logic - he was talking about an average surfer. I get paid $40 per surfer for TopBucks, I suppose they shave too.

Except I use click counters - so I know EXACTLY how much traffic I sent them. I also converted 1 in 62 this last pay period. Are you telling me that they are shaving too and I should probably get more than that?

When you call someone a liar - you should have more proof than moving through your stats and seeing stuff changing.

I would LOVE TO SEE MARC DE start to send out letters to those that were converting one week at 1:2000 and then go up to 1:200 and accuse THEM of cheating:

Dear Webmaster,

You used to convert at 1:2000 - now you are converting at 1:200. Therefore you must be cheating and we are terminating you.

Signed Marc

You guys seem to think ARS has some magical program that adjusts things on a per webmaster basis.

I'd like to point out that this is the same ARS with the absoulute worst BBS I have ever seen, their site never comes up right on my computer, and their freesite works like it was hosted on a commodore 64. (No offense Marc De - at least you guys try).

Some seem to believe that they have the biggest state of the art shaving system that uses AI in determining who to shave.

These guys pay every week - even if you make only one sale. Do you know how much they could save just by raising that to two sales - or by paying every two weeks.

They bend over backwards to give webmasters everything they want and without ANY EVIDENCE - are blasted for their imaginary state of the art shaving system.

There are tons of legitimate programs out there such as Cybererotica, ARS, TopCash, CEN and more that pay $35 or more per trial.

You really believe they are all shaving? Just cause ARS has what you believe is bad sites? AOL has a crappy Internet service - they still get plenty of recurring people.
There are plenty of people that are billed every month cause they don't cancel. I am sure that if the surfer had to sign up again each month - we would all be out of work.

------------------
TopBucks.com - Converting at better than 1:130
David Lace Content - Highest Quality Teen Content
ConversionCash.com - Make Money off your WebTV Traffic

I shaved my nuts once in Nashville on a drunken dare.
Fuckers itched for three weeks!

Chris R, wow, I'm impressed with your reply, now I'm SURE they don't shave, all the stats are false and my reccuring sponsors are magical! heh, wondering if you read or you're just close minded. Poor innocent webmaster http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif Btw, Topbucks counts 1/2 of the clicks, and anyone experienced with PPS sponsors know that conversion are total bullshit, they are playing with your traffic and stats. Hum, ever noticed that only PPS sponsors use 2th page counting? heh, iTeen is a good site, plenty of content with average to good quality. Anyway, believe what you want and Go Fuck Yourself! http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

Wake up... He said on average 1.5 so that means that some surfers stay for 3 maby 4 months and others don't stay at all. An average of 1.5 months can be done whit a high quality membersection.

zgorf - I'm not trying to fool anyone. Sit here and try to call me a liar all you want. However, last I checked, I own ARS and you don't. So you would have NO clue what our members retain. Our sites convert trial to full at a rate in the 50% range. Our avg customer stays LONGER than 1.5, however I was using a simple formula for the sake of math http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

There used to be a day where 1.5 months was VERY VERY low. Now its closer to the mean.

I'm tired of people questioning my business model, especially those that don't run sponsor programs. I know what I can pay, and pay with out shaving. Profit margins continue to slip but $35-42 + rewards points I can pay and still stay in business, so I do http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif and plenty of webmasters like my offer and my weekly checks!

ChrisR - thanks. I know you understand much more than many do. As far as your critisisms, nothing we don't know and will be fixed in the release of ARS Tech 2.5 just before the launch of ARS 3rd Generation. And, THANK YOU for noticing we try. That is what we do. Can't make everyone happy but you sure can try your hardest to. http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

chris Why dont you read the other damn post before posting? i agree that yes ive had sponsers one month was converting 1:200 then next month convert 1:2000 true... but ars stats changed in the matter of days!

Ill give you 3 Reason Why I think They Shave and this is the truth!

#1: 1:300+ 16 signup in 4 day then 0:7000 0 signup in 5 days (odd dont you think?)

#2: after i stop sending Traffic ratio got better.

#3: THere has Been Millions Post On This So Something Goin On.

teadrinker - you say I'll give you three reasons why they shave and this is the truth! When you say 'this is the truth' are you speaking as though ARS shaving is factual? or are you still talking on assumptions and you know what assumptions do?

teadrinker,

I read your posts - as I said before - it doesn't prove jack shit. If you could read - you would have noticed I already responded to that and specifically mentioned your stats in my reply.

The fact that you think it proves something shows your total lack of understanding of statistics.

zgorf,

If you could read English - you would see that I have Click counters on most of my links - if you do not believe me - check out my sites.

I know how much TopBucks counts and I know that they are not cheating me. I know they do not count every fist page click - I have those stats from MY COUNTERS.

If you had half a brain to put together - you would understand this. That is because I use and make my own statistics. You do not understand statistics - so you have no clue what you are talking about.

Stats change daily - as that is what stats do. The fact that stats went up after you pulled links just proves you know nothing.

If they had continued to go down - you would have said - see they are still cheating me. Because they went up, you say the same thing. ARS can't win. You expect you stats to be the same or close everyday. If you really believe they are cheating - pull them all and go with another company. The fact is - you will find out they are all "cheating".

If either of you even attempted to produce such CRAP as a paper in even a basics statistics class - your professor would give you an F. It contains nothing that is needed to reach a conclusion - other than some raw data.

Learn some basic math before you post this shit you claim as proof. The fact that you are willing to defame legitimate companies without proof just proves your lack of education and ethics.

If you want to post proof - do so. Provide variance, standard deviation, and confidence levels for your statistics. Excel can do all of these. I will personally pay either of you $20.00 by PayPal if you can produce these, along with your legitimate raw statistics from ARS, and show the 95% confidence level that is considered the norm in science.

You can't - and therefore have no proof. Not even close. So either produce REAL statistics - or go fuck YOURSELF!

I'll refer you all to my very first post in this thread, where I said basically that if you have no SOLID proof (that would be admissible in court) regarding shaving/eheating, then kindly shut the fuck up.

Just because you ASSUME or SUSPECT something is going on, doesn't mean it is, and it doesn't make it right that you jump on a busy webmaster forum and spew out your paranoid ASSumptions all over the place. You even seem set on ignoring everyone that offers sound reasoning.

I'll say it again, why can't you total fucking morons just find a sponsor that you're happen with and quit this bull fucking shit already? Go on, just hide behind your stupid computers and keep on spreading your unsupported crap here. Others may be adopting the way of speaking to you tactfully....I've never been one to put up with stupidity or ignorance for very long. Zgorf, you in particular are the only poor deluded dumbass here. You are so warped and misguided and ignorant you are beyond hope I'm afraid.

You wrote: "Btw, Topbucks counts 1/2 of the clicks, and anyone experienced with PPS sponsors know that conversion are total bullshit, they are playing with your traffic and stats"

WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR PROOF????? How these people you are referring to let you slander them publicly without sueing your stupid ass back to the ghetto is beyond me.

I haven't yet given up all hope on Teadrinker yet, at least he is sounding a bit more reasonable in some of his posts.
Good luck Zgorf, if you ever see me at a webmaster convention I invite you to walk the other way. I don't like the tone of your posts, I don't like what you say, and I don't like how you say it. And nobody likes a slimy whiner. If you have solid proof, take someone to court and prove it, otherwize get on with your pathetic life.
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* <a href="http://www.topbucks.com/affiliate/clickthru.cgi?id=1448" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFFFDD"> $40/signup, $50/recur, 65% partnerships</font></a> + free content, free daily galleries!
* <a href="http://www.stiffycash.com/?referer=cdsmith" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFCCFF">Make $35 per $1.95 Trial!!</font></a> +Free content! Is that a stiffy or a wad of 50's?

Yes i dont have a full proof of anything, am not very good with english so am gonna keep it short, the last few post were mumbo jumbo, i dint get thru reading halfway, this is getting old, my stats are getting better again, am thankful for the great ratio am getting from ars now so am not that mad, you can see my tone was better the last few post... maybe the 0:7000 was some techical problem, i dont know but so far the ratio was steady.

SO... ratio 1:200+ before then 0:7000 now 1:200+ it shows that its not my traffic cause i hanvt do any new link trading.

Its either tech problem or shaving, am still sticking to my reason 16 signup in 4 day and 0 in 5 is very odd, why can anyone agree with me on this? i hope the 0:7000 ratio was just some tech problem, if this great ratio stay like this for a while then i thank god for ars.

LOL that wasnt a short post!

Ohh yea... am a stat checking guy =)am not that rich so every signup is important to me.

after seeing all those signups and then just days after days seeing 0 was very depressing!

Reposted from a month ago on the ARS message board by one of our users Argy: Lenghtly post but a lot of REAL statistical analysis involved.

Okay, since this comes up on a daily basis, I'm going to try to illustrate some effects of random distribution. Say you get 1500 hits a week, and average 1:300. So you should get 5 signups a week, right? Maybe 3 on an absolutely terrible week, 7 on a great week. In actuality, you're quite likely to see greater aberations once every couple months. Here are a three computer simulations of 26 week periods:

Week 1: 5
Week 2: 2
Week 3: 3
Week 4: 8
Week 5: 5
Week 6: 7
Week 7: 6
Week 8: 0
Week 9: 4
Week 10: 4
Week 11: 4
Week 12: 7
Week 13: 7
Week 14: 5
Week 15: 7
Week 16: 3
Week 17: 8
Week 18: 6
Week 19: 5
Week 20: 6
Week 21: 2
Week 22: 11
Week 23: 5
Week 24: 5
Week 25: 4
Week 26: 4
Total: 133 (1:293)

You see a week 8 had 0 signups. That's when people squawk "what's wrong with ARS, you suck all the sudden." Then week 22 has 11 signups. That's when people dance the ARS jig. Note that this has nothing to do with ARS servers - these are totally random distributions. Here's another run:

Week 1: 8
Week 2: 2
Week 3: 7
Week 4: 7
Week 5: 5
Week 6: 5
Week 7: 4
Week 8: 5
Week 9: 4
Week 10: 9
Week 11: 5
Week 12: 1
Week 13: 1
Week 14: 1
Week 15: 7
Week 16: 8
Week 17: 6
Week 18: 8
Week 19: 6
Week 20: 6
Week 21: 5
Week 22: 5
Week 23: 9
Week 24: 4
Week 25: 9
Week 26: 6
Total: 143 (1:273)

Whoa, three weeks in a row with one signup, ARS has surely gone to shit! On the other hand, the overall conversion ratio is quite a bit better than the 1:300 probability, so this is actually a lucky streak when taken as a whole. Suppose this webmaster always griped on the message board when you got only one signup in a week, and suppose ARS has 100 webmasters with the same kind of traffic. Every week, four webmasters are going to gripe that this is their worst week ever, that they usually get 1:300, and suddenly they've crapped out at 1:1500. Think about those numbers - ARS has a lot more than 100 webmasters, and a lot of people who have lower volumes than these.

Now for something different. Suppose you're still getting 1:300 conversions, but can send 30,000 hit a week, so figure on roughtly 100 signups a week.

Week 1: 106
Week 2: 92
Week 3: 109
Week 4: 105
Week 5: 112
Week 6: 103
Week 7: 92
Week 8: 104
Week 9: 95
Week 10: 98
Week 11: 100
Week 12: 99
Week 13: 105
Week 14: 94
Week 15: 87
Week 16: 96
Week 17: 105
Week 18: 98
Week 19: 107
Week 20: 91
Week 21: 101
Week 22: 92
Week 23: 99
Week 24: 90
Week 25: 114
Week 26: 108
Total: 2602 (1:300)

Wonder of wonders, the numbers look a lot more stable. (It actually is unusual that it hit exactly a 1:300 average, although it's usually going to be 1:295-1:305 with this volume). Again, think about how many people who usually get 100 signups a week come on here to bitch about "ARS has gone to shit this week." It happens on occasion, especially when there's a real problem, but by and large the big sellers aren't griping because their volume gets the numbers closer to their averages.

It's something to think about next time you think ARS is letting you down.


------------------
ARS Up to $44 per Signup. 13 New Sites including Voyeur Dorm

Sooo... umm maybe am the unlucky guy with such an odd ratio?

Its like me winning a lottery but without anymoney =)

The Stat shows nothing like my stat but doent matter, shit happens even if its one in a millions, it just happen...

The problem with all of you is that you think that I'm sending 10 signups a week when I can send 150-200, Toolz showed real stats, I'm not a small guy whining about my ratio going down to 1:3000 from 1:300 when I don't even send 10 signup on a daily basis. I'm talking about BIG stats, huge experience with 30+ sponsors and now... ARS is the only one in this world acting like I said. Usualy, PPS sponsors convert steady if you send them a lot of signups.

Chris, I bringing stats based on my experience with my traffic and 30+ sponsors, for the last 2 years. I'm not someone who barely live on porn. If you didn't like what I wrote, just add a "IMHO" at the end of all my posts.

Anyway if I find a proof someday, I'll not sell it for $20.00, but ask for $10,000.00 http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

CDSmith, you act like a chocked little kid. Sit back and relax hehehe.

You wrote: "WHERE THE FUCK IS YOUR PROOF????? How these people you are referring to let you slander them publicly without sueing your stupid ass back to the ghetto is beyond me."

Wow, you really doesn't have much experience with sponsors... leave ars for 2 sec and test for yourself. If you want a small PROOF!!!!!!!!!! then check http://www.thestatistician.com/page3.html

Finaly CDSmith, judging people over the internet with silly BBS posts is pretty pathetic. My life is fantastic, and you don't know me at all! I love you though, big hugs, XXX http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

I love Marc too, even if I think he shaves http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif He's just trying to makes some money out of the shitty traffic we send him http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

zgorf - LOL I can laugh and smile at someone who is attemping to defame me http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif Love u 2!

At the end of the day, if you are happy with the checks you get from your sponsor (some come faster than others http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif then stay where you are. Its whoever makes you the most money!

Zgoof --

You write: "judging people over the internet with silly BBS posts is pretty pathetic"

So, why are you judging sponsors like this??? Could you maybe think before you posts and use your own words for yourself? (duhhh) That's your loser move #1 right there Mr no-life.

You also write: Wow, you really doesn't have much experience with sponsors

Another stupid assumption. What gives you that idea? Because I don't agree with you? What a fucking moronic move that is, thinking I'm a newbie because I think you are an idiot. The fact is, you really ARE an idiot, you don't think before you squawk, and I know enough about my sponsors to be assured that they will pay me. Beyond that, if I ever have any complaints I'll be sure and back my words up with evidence and facts, not empty-headed conjecture like you do.

If your life is so wonderful, why do you sound so miserable, misguided and adle-brained?
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* <a href="http://www.stiffycash.com/?referer=cdsmith" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFCCFF">Make $35 per $1.95 Trial!!</font></a> +Free content! Is that a stiffy or a wad of 50's?

I don't know any other way to write about sponsors other than surfing them on the internet... it's cyberspace.

Another stupid assumption? I guess you don't know the word 'logical'

What gives me that idea? Because if you have good experience with a lot of sponsors, you should know that they like playing with numbers, and that conversions and ratios are almost useless now.

You should get some beers or go fuck yourself to relax, then go read http://www.theadultwebmaster.com/art...youts_01.phtml and keep my 'stats' and 'logic' in mind. The writter is Oz from TrueCash, paying $30 PPS based on an original partnership program. The quality and content of all truecash sites are much better than other sponsors I will not name. This is one of the PPS sponsor I trust.

But Marc said it all... go where you make the most, shaving or not :-)

...and keep in mind that this industry isn't gouverned by any laws, police or syndicate/trade union. Sponsors can shave you, cheat you, steal you and there's not much you can do. IMO, when the gouvernement will rules this industry, we'll notice big changes in payouts and statistics, but will make the same amount of money http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif Shaving is NOT stealing but lying. It's only playing with stats. As a webmaster, do you join the sponsor paying $30 or $35? Webmasters are pure gold for sponsors. Why do sponsors paying $25 per signup convert better than sponsors paying $40? (from my stats) Do you make more money using the $40 one? I don't think so. I just don't like the way some sponsors use to get new webmasters. Why do you think it's a pain in the ass to start a PPS program? If you want webmasters, you HAVE to offer $35.

--- "this post is only an opinion, and does not claim to be scientist... http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif" ---

[This message has been edited by zgorf (edited 09-02-2001).]

Zgorf,

You're kidding right? What you're saying is you want the government to control our business? LMAO I hope I'm just misreading your statements.

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Toolz --

the guy's a mental-head, that's all there is to it. He blabs out is paraniod delusions with no hard evidence whatsoever, and when someone like me calls him to task he tries to belittle it. He obviously believes anything he reads that even mildly supports his theories (and that's all they are, theories) and he's surprised when no one else thinks the way he does.

Ya, I'm thinking there are a few "poor little webmasters" here, a few of them seem to be wannabes ("whine-a-bees"?) as well http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Lastly, Zgoof says: (and I quote) "What gives me that idea? Because if you have good experience with a lot of sponsors, you should know that they like playing with numbers, and that conversions and ratios are almost useless now."

Don't give me any more of your babble-idious opinions man. Where the fuck is your hard evidence? Oh, got none? What a surprise. You are a joke.
<font face="Verdana">___________
CD http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/An...cool_shine.gif
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[This message has been edited by CDSmith (edited 09-03-2001).]

Toolz, I never said I want the gouvernment to control this business, but IT WILL be the reality within 5-10 years. Come on, do you seriously think the internet will be a ffa much longer? You're disapoint me if you do think that, for a guy who ran 4A.

CDSmith, man, just continue to barely live on porn and be happy with your 40k/year. I'm kind of tired of newbies who are totaly innocent and close minded. I already posted you a URL with some serious stats about hit shaving. I used my own counters to see how much traffic I send and how much traffic sponsors show. I'm not a little whinner making 40k/year, you have no idea who I am, and that's pretty sad http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif

You remind me back then when I was trying to help newbies to make money in this industry, and everyone was asking me dozen of question, and I stopped because they started bitching me because I didn't want to give them ALL my tricks. I'm not here to help them anymore, because they are competition anyway, and I'm not here to learn you what you SHOULD think, I just want to warn you little boy.

this is my last post on this forum -- time to work now for the next 24 months then retire for good and travel the world http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Zgoof -- come meet me sometime, you'll feel real stupid real quick for calling me "little boy".

So now, just because I don't agree with you (and I think you're an idiot) I'm classed by you as a newbie? So, if my 3 years in this industry says I'm a newbie, just how long does one have to be doing this full time before they are considered as godlike as you? It sounds as if you are saying here that unless I think like you and be all suspicious and paraniod and negative, then I won't succeed in this biz.

Everything you've said so far just shoves the shoe of stupidity farther and farther up your dumbass, or down your throat, take your choice "little boy" http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Newbies shouldn't even BE going to an apehandle like you for ANY advice. You are much too negative minded, too ignorant and way too over-opinionated to be dispensing advice. And if you've been at this game for as long as you seem to let on, then why will it take you a whole 'nother 24 months to get rich enough to quit? shouldn't you be pretty much there by now? And keep guessing how much I make from this biz budrow, you are quite a ways off (too low). There is far more to some people here than what a goof like you would be able to figure. Fact is, you say you've been around a long time, yet it would seem you've learned nothing except how to alienate people from you.
No really, goooood luck to ya.
Now let's see if you keep your word and shut up.
<font face="Verdana">___________
CD http://members.home.net/cyberdogs/An...cool_shine.gif
* <a href="http://www.erasercash.com/wm.html?ID=1380291" TARGET="_blank"><font face="Verdana" color="#FFCCCC">ERASERCASH!</font></a> Earn $35 per sale + webmaster referrals 4 LEVELS DEEP</font>
* <a href="http://www.topbucks.com/affiliate/clickthru.cgi?id=1448" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFFFDD"> $40/signup, $50/recur, 65% partnerships</font></a> + free content, free daily galleries!
* <a href="http://www.stiffycash.com/?referer=cdsmith" TARGET="_blank"><font color="#FFCCFF">Make $35 per $1.95 Trial!!</font></a> +Free content! Is that a stiffy or a wad of 50's?

Damn, I couldn't resist http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Yeah, I agree that this topic is one of my favorite, and I have 'negative' opinions about it, but I'm not going to say "Damn I'll keep believing everything is alright just to feel good!" If I succeed well in this business, it's because: 1. knowlegde is power 2. questionning yourself is important, in any business or personnal situation.

Back then, I was wondering:
1. Why reccuring programs convert better than pay per signups
2. how some big sponsors only pay $25 per signup when some other can pay $40.
3. why sponsors shave hits, like snake of snakesworld said.. Sponsor A shows 1000 clicks and Sponsor B shows 2000 clicks (both 1st page or 2th page) Today I tried a new proggy, and from their stats, my click-thru dropped from 5% to 1%.
4. How can they pay me $35 per signup when the industry average stats shows that 1 out of 3-4 trials convert to monthly and the retention is 2-3 months
5. How this industry will continue to be able to pay that much with the quality of traffic dropping on a daily basis
6. Why does Sponsor A convert 2x better for a while when you create a new account
7. Why does Sponsor B convert really really bad every *4* days, then go back to normal
etc.

Talking with other guys sending huge traffic to sponsors, I came to my own conclusions.

You don't agree with me. Fine. You take it sooo personal, what's the problem? Marc De doesn't cry and insult and he's the owner (or was). I like him. Go back and read your posts, you'll see WHO is the little boy. Seriously, I don't mind if you are a bodybuilder or a big (fat) guy http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/smile.gif You act like a little boy, insult me, just because you don't like my opinion on this topic. I wasn't perfect too, I said "poor innocent webmasters" -- with a smile, yeah in a funny way. Guess it SHOCKED you! haha http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

In your last posts, you said about me:

"paranoid ASSumptions, fucking moron, your stupidity, poor deluded dumbass, ignorant, beyond hope, stupid ass, slimy whiner, pathetic life, fucking moronic, idiot, empty-headed , miserable, adle-brained, whine-a-bees, dumbass, goof, the guy's a mental-head"
etc...

I hope you feel better now hehehe http://bbs.gofuckyourself.com/board/biggrin.gif

Did you notice that on the 1000+ viewers that read this topic, only one (you) wrote that he was 100% sure that no sponsor shave (hits or/and signups) in this industry? Weird.

Finaly, 24 months is short. Average citizen retire at the age of 55 year old, not 25 year old.

A membership bought with a lost or stolen card, or one from someone who makes a habit of joining sites and then quitting them isn't really a lost sale. Think about it.

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88 shaving websites!

Stop bumping old threads, please?

Fucking idiot